NYT Articles on Food, Drink, Cooking, and Culinary Culture (2002–2005)

[chefzadi]

For example, I myself once audited a course with an instructor in, comment dit-on, the art of love. While her technique was excellent, her knowledge of the history of her art was minimal (save certain oral traditions that had been passed down to her).

I just noticed this part. Do tell via PM if you have to.

[Bux]

Lot to get to.  Damn worke's been keeping me off the boards.

Malcom: you posted

If you ask me, someone's publicist saw that someone's book was about to be published and wanted to create a little buzz. Why not write an Op-Ed? Hmmm...now, what could we write about? And what position from a foodie would be more likely to be published.

I think the piece is designed more to sell books, than to put forward any coherent argument.

That's far from a discussion of the merits of the piece and, as you admit, sheer speculation. I like speculation, but it's not an argument and it's unfair:

Had Malcom presented it as an argument? I read it as his opinion, which, just like Julie, he's entitled to have and express. I actually thought it was a fair assessment of the situation. We'll agree to disagree unless someone can present facts.

I believe both Anthony Bourdain and Michael Rhulman (not that these guys are Tenured Professors, either, but I'm sure they have a bit more cred than me) -- the former in his cookbook, the latter in "The Soul of a Chef" make a significant deal of of French cooking's roots in scarcity. AB talks about how the need to prepare undesireable cuts of meet because families were too poor to waste anything.  So you cooked trip for three days or kept the hen until she was too old to lay eggs and, to make her more palatable, you invented Coq au Vin.  Rhulman talks about haute cuisine, and how chefs, determined not to watse, invented balotines and pates, and turned old bones into stock.  (I don't have either book before me, so I may be slightly off).  As for using sauces to cover bad tatses, I've heard that many times, but never seen any real eveidence either way.  Until then, I put that one out of play.

Balotines and pates, taste best when made from tasty animals and the expensive parts of any animal are not necessarily the tastiest parts. However, a balotine made from a free range chicken is likely to have more flavor than one made from a battery chicken from the supermarket. One wonderful thing that Julia always stressed was that the French chef or housewife, never wasted anything. Every scrap was used. The French have a technique for cooking everything. They have techniques for cooking your chickens and old hens. For every recipe that calls for an old hen, there's one that calls for a fish minutes out of the water. That the French can cook an old hen and produce a delicious dish is not to say that they don't care about the quality of the bird or the wine in the dish. There are old hens for sale at the Union Square Greenmarket. Those free range birds are also best suited for braising as they're flavorful but can be a little tough. If I wanted to make a coq au vin to impress you, I'd buy my bird at the Greenmarket and not the supermarket. These are complex issues and I think Julie did us a disservice with her simple and sweeping generalizations and judgments. I can't prove it, but I've offered the reasons I believe that.

Have any of the article's critics implied otherwise? Did Julie make a positive contribution? Does she really get credit for bringing unpleasant truths by stating the obviously true and surrounding it with mistruths? I don't think so. You don't agree entirely with the article, but you're not willing to be critical of the mistruths. In the end, Julie noted that there's not much difference between the good shopper and the bad shopper at both ends of the scale. A proper attack on the negative aspects of the "organic" movement can be made. Julie didn't make it in my opinion and I've tried to explain why I didn't think so.

First, as you know, I think almost anything that makes people think (and argue) is a positive contribution and that this thread is great and that Julie deserves credit for making it happen. Second, I thaught her point that the FM/WF crowd has a tendency towards self-congratulatory navel gazing -- reinforced, in WF's case, by a multi-million dollar marketing scheme -- in the face of much more important problems than was a good and important one. Since others had had the kindness to point out the problems with her piece, I thought I'd bring the other side forward.

Truthfully, I do most of my shopping in Chinatown, but patronize the Greenmarket and Whole Foods more than a bit. I've not read any of WF's corporate literature, but when I go there, I don't see a lot of judgmental people. Perhaps, unlike Julia, I just don't know how to recognize it in a shopper. It's like in the Emperor's New Clothes, ignorance and a lack of faith makes us skeptical and we can't see what others see. Now don't tell me I've gotten the moral of that story wrong as well. I will agree with you that it appears WF has done a good job of marketing. So has the discount supermarket. I am also not surprised to see you post "since others had had the kindness to point out the problems with her piece, I thought I'd bring the other side forward." I read that as saying you're in this less from a position than simply because you enjoy a good argument and would be happy to take either side.

I actually think her larger point, though, is that when shopping and eating become status symbols . . .

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Isn't that "if" and not "when" unless some proof is presented. Actually, I suspect that what one ate was a status symbol as far back as cave dwelling times well before shopping replaced hunting.

[ingridsf]

Anybody else wonder how many NYC E-Gulleteers have been caught in the net of the op-ed's round-up and don't know it? Have YOU been at the Greenmarkets -- or Whole Foods -- lately?

You never think it could happen to YOU -- until it does.

"So, are you ready to tell us the real reason you're buying those fresh vegetables, ma'am? We got a lot of economic elitists posing sneaking in here, taking the kale out of the mouths of honest, hard-cooking folks."

Imagine. You thought you were buying the kale because you liked it. You thought you were kind of like...the French.

But you were wrong. You were an...economic elitist.

Get help. Turn yourself in. Before all the kale is gone.

Edited July 28, 2005 by ingridsf (log)

[Carrot Top]

Hey, forget about guilt over shopping at Whole Foods! I am feeling guilty over even letting the charm of that little horse at the head of the cart of veggies for sale twenty years ago influence me into buying, through the fact of his big doleful eyes and so-scratchable ears and indefineable smell, that smell that says "Horse. Countryside. The Good Life."

There really isn't anywhere that is free of some sort of atmospheric influence on our ways of shopping, is there?

.................................................................

It came to mind last night as I drove home from the grocery store (no it wasn't a grocery store but I did buy things to eat there. . . it was Target) absentmindedly eating the entire bag of Ghiaradelli chocolates which had somehow fallen out of the top of one of the bags and somehow pried itself open just to jump into my waiting hand that had wandered off the steering wheel towards it. . .

Where does Julie's piece "fit in" with others of its ilk? Have there been other "food" writers who have unburdened themselves on the Op-Ed page of a major newspaper? What have been their subjects? What was the response from their readers? How well did they do, in general (if there is such a thing as "in general") as opposed to other types of writers (let's choose political columnists for a good example) in terms of using argument or rhetoric to prove their final point?

Just curious.

Edited July 28, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[Bux]

. . . .

Get help.  Turn yourself in.  Before all the kale is gone.

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Can I keep my Whole Foods shopping bags? I kind of like the knowing glances they bring when I'm in Bloomingdales.

Actually, as Busboy said, anything that makes you think has value and I've been forced to think of food shopping in terms of cachet. I realize I've been smug in the way I enjoy walking down the street with my shopping bags inscribed in Cantonese or Mandarin. While the pork and mangoes are cheap in Chinatown and better than what I get elsewhere, unfortunately the beef and the tomatoes are rarely worth my attention. Surely I'm a fraud at the Greenmarket if I'm not willing to give up bananas and mangoes for a steady diet of heirloom tomatoes (during their very short season).

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Can I keep my Whole Foods shopping bags? I kind of like the knowing glances they bring when I'm in Bloomingdales.

I wonder how people can tell someone is being self-congratulatory and elitist, by watching them shop for food. I buy heirloom tomatoes at WF because they remind me of my Italian grandfather, and because I can. Just like I buy Manolos because they make my feet and legs look so good -- I'm sure there are other good-tasting tomatoes, or lovely shoes, but I choose what I choose. Doesn't make me better than anyone else, nor does it make me worse than anyone else. When someone stands to the side and passes judgment, they appear to feel left out, not worthy, and wanting to join in ... but they don't know quite how to go about it. I feel almost like Powell wants to be taken seriously as a food writer, and know she isn't, or won't be.

I really wish someone else had written such an editorial. It amazes me that this person has an agent, an editor, and the NYT Op-Ed page editors working for her, and still came up with what she did. Upthread, someone asked whether anyone had been in the Op-Ed page who was considered "worthy" of being there -- Dan Barber, last fall.

[ingridsf]

Can I keep my Whole Foods shopping bags? I kind of like the knowing glances they bring when I'm in Bloomingdales.

Actually, as Busboy said, anything that makes you think has value and I've been forced to think of food shopping in terms of cachet. I realize I've been smug in the way I enjoy walking down the street with my shopping bags inscribed in Cantonese or Mandarin. While the pork and mangoes are cheap in Chinatown and better than what I get elsewhere, unfortunately the beef and the tomatoes are rarely worth my attention. Surely I'm a fraud at the Greenmarket if I'm not willing to give up bananas and mangoes for a steady diet of heirloom tomatoes (during their very short season).

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In general, it’s okay to be discriminating about what you buy as long as you can’t afford what you’re buying. In making grocery choices, the ideal is to make the right choices for the right reasons, i.e., top-quality goods available in “down-market” venues. If you’re keeping the bags as an accessory, you are clearly not in this group.

It is always better to buy the wrong thing for the right reason – pesticide-drenched strawberries to show you’re down with the people – than to buy the right thing for the wrong reason.

If thou lovest the bags, it matters not if thou lovest the contents. Even if the mangos taste better. This isn’t about flavor. This is about the appearance of not caring about appearance.

The above is true as long as you are not French. Because the French are not image-conscious, fashion focused, or interested in luxury goods. They certainly don’t care what other people think of them. And because they focus on technique rather than ingredients, la cuisine de grande mere can transform the humble chicken finger into a glorious coq au vin.

[*Deborah*]

I buy Manolos because they make my feet and legs look so good -- I'm sure there are other good-tasting tomatoes, or lovely shoes, but I choose what I choose. 

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Once I had my first pair (early 90s), I felt as though I could die happy. Shallow, but true. And they're the only 4-in. heels I own that feel good on my feet for as long as I care to wear them.

If I could die wearing Manolos, eating seared foie gras, in a 911 turbo cabriolet on the Sea-to-Sky highway, I wouldn't mind a bit...as long as I was on the last bite. I reckon that probably makes me an elitist

[touaregsand]

I have too many shopping choices to bother with wholefoods. There's a weekly farmer's market which I do not purchase from weekly and I feel no guilt about that. I buy the bulk of my produce from Middle Eastern, Korean and Mexican supermarkets at very good to ridiculously cheap prices, sometimes organic too. I'll do a little research on this but I suspect these stores do some purchasing from smaller farmers. The produce oftentimes resembles what would be at farmer's markets and not the big chain stores. The savings is tremendous for us it's not just a few bucks. If we shopped exclusively at WF and National chains we'd starve.

Another thing I like to do is support minority owned businesses. The only supermarkets I've seen that can compete with the huge chains are those that cater to a Middle Eastern, Asian or Latin Ameircan clientele and these places have lots of cross over appeal with other ethnic groups. And it's in these stores that I see alot of customers buying things that have to trimmed, cut, washed, cooked...

[ghostrider]

....Actually, I suspect that what one ate was a status symbol as far back as cave dwelling times well before shopping replaced hunting.

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Tangential, but I came across a fascinating piece in New Scientist the other week which presented convincing (to me) evidence that agriculture began not for reasons of sustenance, but to produce status crops for dishes to be served at feasts. Presumably local/tribal leaders used these feasts to impress their superior status on their fellows.

Indeed, there is some evidence that the VERY first crops were raised so that our ancestors could brew a primitive form of beer....

This is a whole 'nother thread, if I can ever track down that article online I'll start one.

[JanGilbert59]

This discussion (and the Op-Ed) reminds me of one of the essays from Steingarten's "The Man Who Ate Everything."  He cooked for a month out of a guidebook designed for families living on food stamps.  Almost everything was made of pre-packaged goods, even though those are often more expensive than their fresh (albeit non-organic) alternatives.  His conclusion was that the guide was focused on helping people cook the way the vast majority of Americans are accustomed to, rather than on helping them eat in the most delicious and healthful way possible on the given budget.

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The problem also is transportation. I did a series for my newspaper several years ago on the lack of supermarkets in low-income neighborhoods. In America, the people with the most access to transportation (people with reliable cars and the money to put gas in them) have the shortest trips to supermarkets, which are usually over-represented in their neighborhoods. The people with the least access -- people who are dependent on public transportation -- tend to have the longest trip to a market. The markets in their neighborhoods usually stock food that is poor quality, high in fat and sugar, and far more expensive. That can be changed, but in every example I found of a successful supermarket that came into a lower-income area, it usually took about 10 years of community activism to make it happen.

When it does happen, it pays off -- customers are incredibly loyal. But it's a battle to convince stores there profits to be made from selling good-quality, fresh food to people with incomes below $50,000 a year.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I know that doesn't have anything to do with Julie's piece. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion . . .

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I have never found a supermarket in the lower income areas in Savannah, GA. Those markets within walking or biking distance (grandmas do send the grandkids to the store with a shopping list and a ten dollar bill) charge more for lower quality foods than Publix, Kroger, or the farmers' market. I think it is a function of transportation and the diet of the market these stores in low income areas serve, plus the consumer has not been education in how to buy food.

[=Mark]

Long article on emerging Cryovac Cooking techniques. NYT Registration required (free and painless)

[Fat Guy]

Sous vide eG Forums topic

[Bux]

I've had my problems with Hesser's writing in the past, but this appears to be a well researched and exceptionally rewarding article. It documents some of the revolution occurring in cooking in a way that's comprehensible to the lay person. Cooking "sous vide," that is immersing a vacuum packed pouch in hot water is old hat. Cooking it at a low temperature is still the province of a minority of restaurants and fewer home cooks. Using the vacuum packing to alter the texture of the food was news to me.

There was a sort of self satisfaction of knowing that the NY chefs mentioned are high on my list of favorites and that the rest are chefs I've read about in the forums. I recall my association of Cryovac with "boil in bag" frozen dinners, something I, in turn, associated vying with junk food for the polar opposite of the kind of meal I went to a four star restaurant to eat. To put it mildly, I was rather naively shocked when I first learned Daniel Boulud used boil in bag techniques to cater large parties. Perhaps that prepared the way for me to be less shocked to learn chefs were using the technique to prepare meals for single diners in their own flagship restaurants.

Professional cooking and science in the kitchen is rapidly changing. Dan Barber and Mike Anthony were both noted in the article for their early interest in the processes, yet not much more than a month ago, I was at Stone Barns and Mike was excitedly talking about a new thermal circulator he was testing in his office. In spite of the fact that Stone Barns is one the area's newest restaurants, here was a major piece of equipment for which space might have to be made in the kitchen.

Hesser's article also reaches out to include other "attention being paid to temperature and laboratory precision, as in Grant Achatz's Alinea kitchen which has "an entirely new mechanism they're calling the Antigriddle, which has a surface that chills to minus 30 degrees Celsius (minus 22 Fahrenheit), allowing you to freeze food in the same way you would saute it." This device has been mentioned a number of times in a few forums here. Below is a version used to "grill" frozen desserts at elBulli this season.

We've been processing our foods for a long time, probably starting before we discovered fire. The recent attention to science and technology and the the use of exacting temperatures and controls seems to blur the difference between commercial food processing and fine cooking, be it in the home or in a luxury restaurant. For some chefs and cooks alike, the reaction will be reactionary. No doubt, not being able to put the fat to the fire will seem less than sexy. To borrow a line I first read in James Jones' From Here to Eternity at an impressionable age when those things stick, "it will be like washing your feet with your socks on." Will it be as satisfying to depend on a digital read out in lieu of a prod of the steak with your finger? I don't know, but the ultimate satisfaction for a chef should be in the flavor of the dish and the look on the diner's face.

To come back to Keller's watermelon as served as Per Se, I don't see home cooks "Cryovacking" their fruit, but I will expect to see blocks of pressure processed melon at the market. Artists have often been at the forefront of development that finds its way to a mass audience and, at least in this aspect, I hope we can agree that chefs are creative artists.

[Fat Guy]

Several million American consumers have vacuum sealing machines in their homes, such as the FoodSaver brand. These machines are routinely used in vegetable and fruit preservation, marinating and cooking. I too enjoyed the story, but the Times is way behind the curve here. While consumers are obviously not using vacuum machines with the same level of sophistication as David Bouley and $2,000-a-day professional consultants, you can find FoodSaver discussion all over the web -- including here. You can also find amateur cooks discussing sous vide techniques at an advanced level in eG Forums topics -- indeed, you will learn nothing about how to accomplish sous vide techniques from the New York Times today, whereas you can learn plenty here. I'm sure there are plenty of out-of-the-loop folks who will read today's Times Magazine piece and say, "Wow, did you read about this revolutionary new cooking technique in the New York Times today?" Little do they know that the Times has limped along on this one, writing about it years after this technology joined the ranks of "As seen on TV." (On another topic, Paula Wolfert cites examples of consumer-level sous vide media coverage dating back to 1983).

[Bux]

Man bites dog is news. That the Times is behind the curve in relationship to the eG forums is not. My guess is that this will reach a large audience beyond even those that read the Wednesday Dining section. It will reach a mass audience as well because of its placement in the magazine. Another guess is that not even the majority of our members have read much of what's been poted here in the forums, and I've already mentioned that we've discussed some of the aspects touched on in the article. In fact we've probably touched on all of it and mentioned everyone of those chefs and in disparate forums to boot. Bruno Goussault hasn't been mentioned here until this morning however.

[Fat Guy]

As I commented on the main sous vide topic, the Goussault material is the interesting part of the article -- a good use of Times resources and access. But saying about sous vide that "it will probably trickle down to the home kitchen someday" is worse than old news; it's out-of-touch. I just hope it's not deliberately out-of-touch, because a simple Google search leads quickly to a wealth of information that would have demanded acknowledgment of the consumer side and of the online contribution to the exchange of sous vide cooking information.

[edsel]

Steven, it's true that there are millions of FoodSaver appliances out there, but how often do people think of them in a culinary context, rather than simply a means of avoiding freezer-burn, or protecting rare coin collections?

I found the article to be thoughtful and well researched. I especially enjoyed the background stuff on Goussault and Pralus, and also the little anecdotes from various chef's impressions of sous vide.

[Bux]

What will, or won't, trickle down to the consumer level is an interesting question, but the answer may be subjective. For instance, I don't see consumers pressure treating watermelon for the texture as much as I see someone making a business decision to vacuum pack it as snacks. I could be wrong. I've not spent much time trying to relate to what the average Joe does in his or her kitchen. "Boil in bag" is old story. What made the article interesting reading is that it took Cryovac technology into the 21st century for most readers. Cryovac and "boil in bag" at uncontrolled temperatures is about as far as most home cooks have gone. Professionals are using circulating water baths. I'm not sure the definitive word is out on the possibilities of bacterial growth at low temperatures, but the information in the article, as well as mention of Goussault was important and news to those who haven't read the thread by Nathan. In any event, what's posted here in the forums can hardly be described as consumer level even when it's as cutting edge as what's being posted in that thread. Likewise, I don't fault Amanda for not mentioning Juan Roca's definitive book on the subject, even though there's an English edition and even though it has a foreword by a NY chef -- Wylie Dufresne -- simply because very few copies are going to be purchased by lay cooks. "The Goussault material is the interesting part of the article" and it's an article about Goussault as much as it is about the techniques it covers. Goussault is the story and he's working with chefs and industrial food processors. Presumably chefs are going to Goussault for what's not available to the consumer. There's much that's available to the consumer and much more than may trickle down. The millions of vacuum sealing machines now in homes, don't work as the professional ones do as participants in the eG thread on sous vide recipes acknowledge.

[chefzadi]

I saw alot of vacuum packed foods in Korea.

There's a garlic pickle that packaged that way, extradordinarily crisp. Not something I really eat, but the texture is incredible. Maybe a fancy restaruant will serve it "this garlic has been cryovaced"

[Fat Guy]

Steven, it's true that there are millions of FoodSaver appliances out there, but how often do people think of them in a culinary context, rather than simply a means of avoiding freezer-burn, or protecting rare coin collections?

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I'd say the answer is . . . millions!

For example, in the article, we have the claim that "The atmospheric pressure created during the vacuum-packing process also promotes osmosis among the contents of the bag, so sous vide has become an important tool for marinating and curing foods and infusing oils with spices and herbs."

How is that, aside from use of words like "osmosis," "atmospheric pressure" and "sous vide" any different from (exact quote from FoodSaver) "Plus, order now and receive our special bonus package, including our best-selling FoodSaver Marinating Canister so you can marinate meats in just minutes instead of overnight"?

That's simply not a case of "it will probably trickle down to the home kitchen someday." It's already in the home kitchen; the New York Times is just too out-of-touch to realize it. If you go to the FoodSaver site, you can even find recipes for FoodSaver marinating from the Cook's Illustrated/America's Test Kitchen team, including language like: "Use your FoodSaver Quick Marinator or Rectangular Canister and marinate the lamb in 15-20 minutes." And why else would FoodSaver bags be "approved for microwave, freezer, and boil-in-bag"?

Certainly, professional chefs are doing more with vacuum sealing than home cooks, just as professional chefs are doing more with knives than home cooks. And yes, they have better machines. But a FoodSaver is a home sous vide machine, period -- just as an iSi cream whipper is a home foamer canister, and just as a Braun hand-held blender is a home immersion blender -- and millions of consumers have them and use them all the time for marinating, freezing, boil-in-bag, pickling and more.

[ned]

My two cents. . . hats off to Ms Hesser. Great story.

[slkinsey]

For example, in the article, we have the claim that "The atmospheric pressure created during the vacuum-packing process also promotes osmosis among the contents of the bag, so sous vide has become an important tool for marinating and curing foods and infusing oils with spices and herbs."

How is that, aside from use of words like "osmosis," "atmospheric pressure" and "sous vide" any different from (exact quote from FoodSaver) "Plus, order now and receive our special bonus package, including our best-selling FoodSaver Marinating Canister so you can marinate meats in just minutes instead of overnight"?

While we're at it, I might as well point out that this commonly held belief is completely fallacious. Think about it: why would reducing the atmospheric pressure cause the marinating liquid to penetrate more deeply into the food item? If you reduce the atmospheric pressure around a piece of meat, liquid and air will come out of the food item in order to establish equilibrium. This is why vacuum pump "force marinators" don't actually work.

In the case of sous vide involving a form-fitting plastic covering, the atmospheric pressure isn't so much reduced as all the extra air is removed from the package. There is some small advantage to the plastic covering technique with respect to marination because a very small amount of marinading liquid placed into the bag before the air is removed and the bag is sealed will coat every external surface of the meat with a very thin layer of the marinade. This means that you can use much less marinade than you would otherwise have to use, which is valuable in large-scale industrial setups. But it still doesn't make more of the marinade penetrate the meat compared to "regular" marinading.

This is discussed in Robert Wolke's What Einstein Told His Cook 2: The Sequel: Further Adventures in Kitchen Science. He discusses a study in Poultry Science in which chicken breasts were marinaded either at regular atmospheric pressure or en vacuo for 30 minutes and then evaluated for "moisture absorption, cooked yield, pH change during marination, and shear values." The authors observed that vacuum marination "increased moisture absorption during marination, but after cooking, yields were similar" and concluded that "use of vacuum during marination appeared to offer no significant advantage over marination at atmospheric pressure." Young, L.L., Smith, D.P. 2004. Effect Of Vacuum On Moisture Absorption And Retention By Marinated Broiler Fillets. Poultry Science. 83:129-131. Wolke further explored the subject using a green marinating liquid and inspecting the meat with a microscope after vacuum marination. He observed "virtually no evidence of the green marinade inside the meat." If I recall correctly, chef Christian Delouvrier told you something similar when we asked him whether we should consider using vacuum or sous vide marination for the rooster we were preparing for coq au vin.

[Fat Guy]

Which is really part of a larger issue: marinating does a lot less than people think.

Where I do think sous vide methods amplify flavor is when you cook with flavorings in the bag. This is just my personal experience -- I've not studied it scientifically. Still, it does seem that a tablespoon of liquid and some very small quantities of herbs and such can give you a lot of bang for your buck. That's a bit harder to accomplish with "one-bar" home sous vide, I mean FoodSaver, machines because they have a tendency to suck liquid out of the bag and into their mechanisms (which is why they offer canisters for marinating). But you can make it work with the bag, especially if you make your stock into ice cubes first.

[Jinmyo]

Back to the story: Very well done, amanda. (She's an eG member and did a Q&A here.)