Calling all cooks ! ? !

[nwyles]

back to the tip issue,  as well as on the boh & foh misunderstandings. Check out this San Fransisco restaurant's website. Rules (or more so customs, "tradition" in our case) can be bent to the greater good of all. 

http://www.incanto.biz/why.html

←

Eddy, I seem to recall that one our Vancouver restaurants have a total tip pool , divided equally between everybody. I think it is Subeez on Homer Street. Great for the support staff, but not so great for the servers. I recall it has caused a few people to leave.

Edited June 15, 2005 by nwyles (log)

[hopkin]

Yuo have just shown the number one misconceived notion, busy restaurant=profit for owners.

I never said anything about that restaurant being busy. It certainly was at times, and was less as the kitchen went downhill.

The restaurant that we opened (my partner and I) was very busy to start but we had 3 problems, partners that did not see eye to eye, rent that was too high and a menu that was not engineered very well.

your 4th problem (which I considered your biggest) was that your amazingly strong kitchen team was being totally eroded through overworking and underpaying. and don't tell me this was circumstancial - it was policy. the demise of the team is the demise of the restaurant. of course, there were many other reasons.

Alistair, do you think its a reasonable assumption that owners WANT to overwork the cooks, do you think that owners do it to see if they can ruin the kitchen, do you think that owners get together and say, lets break them.

I've seen it so often Gerald that I believe this sometimes. It was about the only conclusion we could all come up with then. There seemed no other reasonable explanation to loosing strong staff members over another dollar or two an hour.

I believe it was neil from hsg that spoke on another thread about 80-90 hour work weeks, do you think he wants to do that for fun.

I think many chefs and owners do it because they cannot find good people. Maybe this is because they are unwilling to pay for it.

Edited June 15, 2005 by hopkin (log)

[RooStew]

My question is.... What's with all the oldies getting into the trade here in Van? In Australia most cooks, including myself start young. Making it alot easier to deal with the shitty wages (when I started at the tender age of 17 just 9 years ago, I was taking home $160au a week!), so all you newbies should be stoked with your tenner an hour. As a student, if you are or think you are worth top dollar, prove yourself and it will come. Make the right decisions though. I made the move to and from hotels and restaurants, and now the hotels hold the future for me. True, some indepent restaurants offer an interesting time and free run of creativity to boot. But so do some hotels. Some hotels will also work your arse off for 12, 14 hrs plus a day the industry it's hit and miss, but if you do find some thing thats suits you is it rewarding, I know. If you choose to go with whichever, know why and bite the bullet or quit if you hate it. This is not a glamorous industry and I have seen and worked insome shitty conditions, done long hours, worked for some true c#$%$ and been ripped off to know end. But honestly I wouldnt change it for the world. I love this job even if it is just cookin'.

[Adesso Chef]

Dept. at Earl's great at hiring kitchen guys as well as the pretty young girls ?

Let's hear it.

←

OK, so I have a background in pretty high-volume, factory style cooking. Chandler's, Milestone's .... big numbers, paint-by-number food. Don't go in looking for magic, but come back and it was the same as last time. BTW, churning out these numbers of covers is closer to magic than you think. Maybe 10 people in this city can work a saute shift at Milestone's on a Friday night in July.

The best cooks I know are line-cooks, first and foremost. If you can't to that, you can't do shit.

Is this the result of cooking becoming trendy? Do we have Jamie Oliver to blame for this? A glut four or five years after the fact.

Being a cook in a hotel restaurant, with a Chef whose background is largely independent, is an interesting environment. We don't take the shotgun approach like some bigger chain restaurants can do. That's their strategy. That middle is hard to fill, but they get lucky sometimes.

-- Matt.

edited for joke after I read the whole thread:

What do you call a restaurant with no servers? Take out.

What do you call a restaurant with no cooks? Closed.

←

I do believe you may be drunk! There are many very talented chefs in this city, and your comments are quite bold.

[nwyles]

Yuo have just shown the number one misconceived notion, busy restaurant=profit for owners.

I never said anything about that restaurant being busy. It certainly was at times, and was less as the kitchen went downhill.

The restaurant that we opened (my partner and I) was very busy to start but we had 3 problems, partners that did not see eye to eye, rent that was too high and a menu that was not engineered very well.

your 4th problem (which I considered your biggest) was that your amazingly strong kitchen team was being totally eroded through overworking and underpaying. and don't tell me this was circumstancial - it was policy. the demise of the team is the demise of the restaurant. of course, there were many other reasons.

Alistair, do you think its a reasonable assumption that owners WANT to overwork the cooks, do you think that owners do it to see if they can ruin the kitchen, do you think that owners get together and say, lets break them.

I've seen it so often Gerald that I believe this sometimes. It was about the only conclusion we could all come up with then. There seemed no other reasonable explanation to loosing strong staff members over another dollar or two an hour.

I believe it was neil from hsg that spoke on another thread about 80-90 hour work weeks, do you think he wants to do that for fun.

I think many chefs and owners do it because they cannot find good people. Maybe this is because they are unwilling to pay for it.

←

Hopkin, I work 80 to 90 hours a week, not because I can't find good people, but more over, because it is hard to find trustworthy people. I have had a little run of theft or "shrinkage" awhile back. It was a heart-breaking experience.

This is actually the reason I sent you a PM about 6 months ago. I was in your store and witnessed some money being taken but nothing being rung in. Having just been through something similar, I wanted to give you a heads up. Unfortunatly, I never heard back from you and then too much time had passed.

Neil

[Matt R.]

I do believe you may be drunk! There are many very talented chefs in this city, and your comments are quite bold.

←

Given the late hour of my post (3 am) and my chosen trade, your assumption is forgiveable. Not true, but forgiveable. I have two small children at home, and a wife going to school so I take advantage of the quiet hours after work to get some time to myself. Well, to share with you all, actually. Egullet seems to be taking up much of my time lately. Anyone out there remember DDial, STS, or BBSing as a wasted pastime?

As for my statements, boldness is an admirable quality in a cook if you ask me! You know, step up, take charge, that kind of thing. Who wants a wishy washy cook who can't think for him/herself on the fly?

-- Matt.

edited to say:

By "this city" I mean Victoria. I'm sure the amount of great line cooks in Vancouver scales with the population. For every "very talented chef" how many "very talented line cooks" do you need? Somewhere between two and six? Someone actually needs to be able to execute, as you well know. This is worth much more than $10/hr.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Matt R. (log)

[jhiroshi]

Eddy, I seem to recall that one our Vancouver restaurants have a total tip pool , divided equally between everybody. I think it is Subeez on Homer Street. Great for the support staff, but not so great for the servers. I recall it has caused a few people to leave.

I believe that Shiru-bay Chopsticks cafe in Yaletown also has a total tip pool. It works for the cooks (who aren't really taken out of the Vancouver talent pool as they are mostly straight from Japan), but FOH staff have troubles with it. It's more egalitarian to be sure, but servers who are used to making more money don't stay around too long when they know they can work at any of the other restaurants nearby and make more money.

Edited June 15, 2005 by jhiroshi (log)

[gerald]

Yuo have just shown the number one misconceived notion, busy restaurant=profit for owners.

I never said anything about that restaurant being busy. It certainly was at times, and was less as the kitchen went downhill.

The restaurant that we opened (my partner and I) was very busy to start but we had 3 problems, partners that did not see eye to eye, rent that was too high and a menu that was not engineered very well.

your 4th problem (which I considered your biggest) was that your amazingly strong kitchen team was being totally eroded through overworking and underpaying. and don't tell me this was circumstancial - it was policy. the demise of the team is the demise of the restaurant. of course, there were many other reasons.

Alistair, do you think its a reasonable assumption that owners WANT to overwork the cooks, do you think that owners do it to see if they can ruin the kitchen, do you think that owners get together and say, lets break them.

I've seen it so often Gerald that I believe this sometimes. It was about the only conclusion we could all come up with then. There seemed no other reasonable explanation to loosing strong staff members over another dollar or two an hour.

I believe it was neil from hsg that spoke on another thread about 80-90 hour work weeks, do you think he wants to do that for fun.

I think many chefs and owners do it because they cannot find good people. Maybe this is because they are unwilling to pay for it.

←

Alistair

Its clear you would rather talk in terms of opinions rather than realities, good luck with your endeavor I wish you well and hope you never find yourself in the position of having to make the decisions we had to at our mutual workplace.

[SobaAddict70]

Since the thread has been moved to the General Food Topics forum, it might be worth opening up the dialogue to other Society members, eh? I don't live in Vancouver but I'm sure many of the issues talked about amongst the participants so far are universal the world over.

What have your experiences been in restaurants where you live?

Soba

[transfattyacid]

Evening all .

May i just butt in again ?

I dont believe that money is the issue here. i have never been one to take a job solely on that criteria.

And for the record i turned down a job that paid not far off twice the amount to work some where that i believe in . my employers ( btw now know who i am ) respect my experience ( sorry if i`m being presumptuous here boss ) and have done all they can to make me feel at home. They have also created an environment that is refreshingly devoid of all the autocratic dogma that is so traditionally and intrinsically linked to the profession.

now i think that my employers may be in the minority here.

So with this in mind. What do you all think would be of benefit to this chef shortage situation ?

How can we as an industry attract the right people to fill these roles ?

And

What should we ( or indeed can we )do to change any old structures that may impede this process ?

peace out :] i gotta do stuff back in a bit .

[hopkin]

I dont believe that money is the issue here. i have never been one to take a job solely on that criteria.

You are totally right, money is not the only currency. (which is why I went to go work for Gerald for so little ) Seriously, its about quality of life and I look for good people in a good atmosphere. As an owner now I employ barista's who I try to pay well, also show respect and try to make thier workplace an enjoyable place to be.

So with this in mind. What do you all think would be of benefit to this chef shortage situation ? How can we as an industry attract the right people to fill these roles ?

What should we ( or indeed can we )do to change any old structures that may impede this process ?

I'm thinking owners should be accountable for thier work practices good and bad. perhaps a way for the customers to know how wages and conditions are in restaurants. I certainly want my meal to be made by a happy cook than a bitter overworked and underpaid one. Until then every city will have its sweat kitchens.

From how you describe your bosses, I'd be pleased to eat there.

[stovetop]

Industry insiders predicted the shortage about 15 years ago, white papers were put out; ideas thrown around, but as usual nothing got done. The chefs assocoation now has about ten branches and is constantly breaking down into more factions. The old boys club and the image of the chef as a star has done more harm to our industry then good. When you are on the top; what are you doing to help Vancouvers professionalism or maybe BC?

Every province has a different basis and restaurant culture. I do not think you can really put all the places in the same pile. You will always get different experiences and the page will keep geting off topic, putting the discusion in general in my opinion has not served the discusion, it seemed to me to be on topic and people in the van scene were expresing their feelings, now when you open it up you are going to get an even more wide open topic level.

Back to the super star, Most chefs positions in Vancouver are a chef owner situation, so right off the start you loose about five to six jobs, secondly Vancouver is not that big, and they (home owners)are tide up in huge mortgages and do not have the huge cash flow people think they have. There are more high end restaurants then the city needs, it has been at satureation for about ten years, five open, five close.

When BC raised the minimum wage it killed the cooks wage, we have not had a increase since 90, it was ten then and it is ten now.

Any way we chefs can be part of our own problem or become part of our salution.

First we need to put our industry ahead of our own personel goals and have all local chefs associtions speak with one voice and then realy become a profession.

steve

[nwyles]

Steve : I remember breaking the $10.00 per hour glass ceiling 20 years ago. I was a god amongst those I worked with as I could now show them the way to higher wages !

I think minimum wage in B.C. was in the $4.50 range. Now minimum wage is $8.00 and cooks wages have not increased that much. I realized quite some time ago that the only way I was going to make any money at this was to own my own place.

[stovetop]

I know; you are absolutly rght, I am in the same boat.

You might as well work for yourself and get the just rewards for the cause.

25 years and I am still here.

It has been my life, married to the stove.

It sure gets hot

Although I would not change it for the world

eat to life; life to eat

steve