Dinner Guests Don't Return Favor

[Busboy]

According to the Washington Post, and my own experience, there are a growing number of dinner guests who either weasel out of extending a return invitation or are just too bumpkin-like to remember the manners momma taught them.

It's an unacknowledged truth of modern life: There are hosts and there are guests -- many of whom get invited back time after time -- but the roles aren't as interchangeable as they used to be. "Tit-for-tat socializing," in the words of San Francisco etiquette writer Charles Purdy, aka Mr. Social Grace, "is sort of old-fashioned."

I'm broke, I'm hungry and I want someone else to cook Saturday night. You?

[jglazer75]

According to the Washington Post, and my own experience, there are a growing number of dinner guests who either weasel out of extending a return invitation or are just too bumpkin-like to remember the manners momma taught them.

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I'm broke, I'm hungry and I want someone else to cook Saturday night.  You?

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Quite frankly I didn't even know this was an issue, and it certainly wasn't something my "momma" taught me. Those I know of "my" generation (I'll give you a hint, it starts with a letter that is third from the end of the alphabet) generally invite people over when they have some extra beer/wine/etc. lying around the house they need to get rid of, or they don't feel like going out, or whatever. There's no thought of "tit-for-tat" scoring. "You know Tad, Biff and Mimi prepared a wonderful tuna casserole for us last week and that game of canasta was to die for; we should invite them over for meatloaf and rousing game of parcheesi, I'll bet we'll beat them again." There's no scorecard. Plus, while I'm an adequate cook, I wouldn't want some of my friends anywhere near an open flame and sharp objects.

The BIGGER problem I have is when you invite someone and they don't have the common courtesy to bring beer or wine with them.

[Varmint]

I can't tell you how many times I've informed my dinner guests that there is absolutely no expectation of a return invite. We like to throw dinner parties. It's easy for us to do and is a reasonably inexpensive source of entertainment where we don't have to hire a babysitter.

[JPW]

The BIGGER problem I have is when you invite someone and they don't have the common courtesy to bring beer or wine with them.

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Call me old-fashioned, even though I too am officially a Gen X'er

I find the above idea repulsive. It's as if you expect people to pay for coming to your house for dinner.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Actually, there are an infinite number of reasons which might cause a lack of reciprocity... one of which has to do with the difference in entertaining styles.

If one is a good cook who knows the ins and outs of entertaining, others might be fearful of trying to entertain someone knowledgeable if their own ability is only average.

When I have people over, while I don't automatically expect anything reciprocal, however it is common courtesy to extend the hand in friendship to show one's gratitude ...

[Pam R]

Actually, there are an infinite number of reasons which might cause a lack  of reciprocity... one of which has to do with the difference in entertaining styles.

If one is a good cook who knows the ins and outs of entertaining, others might be fearful of trying to entertain someone knowledgeable if their own ability is only average.

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Along the same lines, I think that if you are in the food business, people often feel intimidated and don't want to invite you over for a dinner you may not find 'up to par'. If they only knew that if they'd just throw some hotdogs on a grill you'd be ever so grateful...

[rich]

I rarely get invited to someone's house for dinner because (as I've been told on many occasion) I would intimidate them (for fear of not being able to match what I made them for dinner).

I think that's silly, but I do understand the thought process. So my guests compensate by always bringing a very nice bottle of wine or two. Fair exchange as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy cooking and I eventually enjoy the wine they bring.

I normally entertain three Saturdays a month and one or two Sundays.

Edited May 13, 2005 by rich (log)

[*Deborah*]

Generation X--albeit the old end--here.

Eventually, I stop inviting people for (fancy) dinners at home when they never return the favour. I don't mean snacks, I mean three courses that take time and effort (and, yes, money). I don't expect necessarily the same level of food or favour in return, but I do expect something.

As far as bringing wine or whatever, most of my friends do have the manners to bring some kind of hostess gift with them, although I tend to be a compulsive enough hostess that I am always prepared, beverage-wise. I never expect wine or beer unless the person has said they would or (close friend, impromptu plans) if I asked them to pick something up as I didn't have a chance to.

On the other hand, when I have people over for a party, and I'm supplying food for a crowd, I will usually have some liquor and mixers, and people will bring their own as well, that's just usual with my friends.

I seldom, if ever, arrive for a meal or a party empty-handed. And I do keep a mental list of social obligations.

[Susan G]

Ahem. Funny this topic came up, because I woke up this morning thinking about my neighbors. They've had us to dinner twice, and my husband and I do need to invite them to dinner. My problem? My husband's bachelor pad of 12 years is still being un-cluttered - after two years of marriage. it's CHAOS: Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome. I was wondering if we could take them out to a restaurant, and then decided I have to bite the bullet, clean as well as possible, and keep my chin up. And wow them with food.

[bleudauvergne]

We have a lot of interesting neighbors. I should really have a party.

I'm always preparing the family dinners. The gifts overflow. I get pots of this and tins of that and lots of fresh lovely things for my labor. We always give gifts when we are guests. When people don't bring things (which is rare), we still don't mind. I love to receive wines but we normally have the wines already prepared to match the dishes we're going to serve, so we don't usually serve what we receive.

There are a couple of people on my list to invite. We normally invite people we enjoy spending time with again even if they don't invite back. We don't mind. There are always reasons and for each it's different. We order an extra set of chamber music concert tickets a couple of times a year to treat friends and sometimes return home with them for an after concert meal.

[simdelish]

I'm glad you started this thread Busboy. I really took issue with several of the statements in that article. Call me old-fashioned or whatever, but I don't think there is ANY excuse for not reciprocating in some way for a kind invitation. My mother (and my grandmother) raised me properly, and for that I am glad.

"People are just too busy," says Julie Finley, a founding member of the U.S. Committee on NATO and a leading Republican fundraiser. "If you are on the road marching through Eastern Europe or Central Asia for two weeks and you come back for a week, and you have your family and all kinds of priorities, maybe you just can't fit entertaining into your schedule.

Oh, pardon me, Ms. Bigshot, remind me not to invite YOU to my home!!! That is a lame excuse. Obviously her "priorities" don't include being a considerate friend, I guess it's because she's too busy mooching off other people.

The fact is, you don't have to invite someone right back over within two weeks or whatever. It may take months or even a year. Maybe you don't have a big enough house, table, or refrigerator, or you can't even cook. You do something nice in return. Period. You can take them out to lunch or dinner at a restaurant. Even just drinks. Have them over to watch a game. Take them someplace with you that you have access to, but they do not, like a sports event, vacation home, media event, boat ride, horse race, pig pickin', watch fireworks from your office rooftop... whatever. Some people just throw one holiday party every year, and invite all those people to whom they owe a return favor. Just do something.

[i am reminded by a concept I understood even as a child: country clubs (or even city clubs) were "invented" in part for a place for people (who did not have the space or ability to entertain guests grandly) to entertain/reciprocate, for social as well as business reasons. That may seem like an outdated notion to some, but the objective is still very much still an issue today]

I also disagree with the San Fran Urban Etiquette guy. He says reciprocating only "worked when everyone lived in a suburb and was the same." Hello? The suburbs are a 20th c invention; being a good guest (or host) goes back centuries.

I entertain a lot. Always have. I am very fortunate to have the capability to as well, because I can cook, have very nice surroundings to do it in. But I also throw tailgate parties, polo parties, picnics, beach parties, house parties (for the weekend) because I want to share fun times with others. Many friends cannot duplicate my efforts, but that doesn't bother me. They do however do SOMETHING in return.

So, Yes, some home cooks entertain for the fun of it. For some of us, it shows love, caring, wanting to share an experience. And there are a few people that don't care whether they've had someone over many times with nothing in return. But the fact remains you don't have to be a schmuck and only take advantage of your friends. Soon, you may figure out why you don't have too many friends anymore, or realize why the invitations just stop. I really believe in the adage "It takes being a host to understand how to be a good guest."

I will readily admit to "crossing off" several people over the years who never once reciprocated in SOME way, to my multiple invitations. Guess what? We rarely see them now. That's ok with me. They obviously don't miss us either.

I think with many of you good cooks here on eG, the case may be one of having your friends feel intimidated by not being able to match your efforts. My friends often admit that to me...I remind them that I will occasionally snitch one of my kid's fishsticks! I would just like a night off, in someone else's house! I agree with Nancy Pollard, owner of La Cuisine, who was quoted in the article as saying "I really don't care how fancy the food is," it is just nice to share a fun evening together.

Busboy: I would be happy to have you over... and then you can invite me!

[JPW]

I was wondering if we could take them out to a restaurant,

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To me, this would be a fine way to show your appreciation.

Or take them to a movie.

Or babysit for them (where applicable).

Or do a picnic.

Or share a special bottle of wine.

Or...

It's about the company, not the specific activity.

[Tess]

Ahem.  Funny this topic came up, because I woke up this morning thinking about my neighbors.  They've had us to dinner twice, and my husband and I do need to invite them to dinner.  My problem?  My husband's bachelor pad of 12 years is still being un-cluttered - after two years of marriage.  it's CHAOS: Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome.  I was wondering if we could take them out to a restaurant, and then decided I have to bite the bullet, clean as well as possible, and keep my chin up.  And wow them with food.

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That's what dinner parties are for: they make you clean the house!

In my view, most people you invite to a small or medium-sized party are your friends. They don't have to invite you to dinner; they may have small children, messy houses, can't afford it, whatever. But they could ask you to go to the movies with them or something. If you keep inviting them over, and they never invite you to do anything at all, it's kind of a lopsided relationship.

[Busboy]

After a frantic phone call with my wife, I did want to point out that pretty much every eG'er who has ever been to my house for anything more than a Budweiser has reciprocated in one fine way or another, with invites to their house or on nights out, special invites to hard-to-reserve restaurant meals, organizing picnics or other gracious events -- and we've only known many of you in person for a couple of months.

It's The Others I was talking about. The one who don't read this board.

Reminds me, I need to have Mal over.

[racheld]

We have our very best friends over all the time, and I COOK. She's a vegetarian, cannot stand to cook meat or be too near the prep. But she is glad to come over and let him enjoy whatever bloody sacrifice we're serving at the moment. Sitting at the table with us three carnivores doesn't faze her...she just tucks into the salad and vegetables and homemade bread, enjoying it all.

And he's so sweetly grateful, somehow...I've never heard so many "UmUmUm..." and soft, appreciative moans at the table before. We love their company, and we get together often. Their hosting consists of taking us two to whatever new restaurant they've discovered and recommend. Last weekend it was a nice Greek place, complete with bellydancer, lovely salads and spanikopita, and the galactoboureko was the BEST dessert I have ever eaten in any restaurant. I have the semolina and phyllo, and am going to take advantage of this cool day (And Abra's recipe) to try my hand at it.

I grew up in the rigid reciprocation era, and people kept count, tallying their ours and yours and they-didn't-yets into infinity, sometimes severing friendships over a lapse in return time. Seemed quite silly to me; I just like cooking for a crowd, or just for another couple. I love preparing the food and setting a lovely table and sitting long over coffee after dessert, laughing and talking with friends. I just get in the mood to "make something pretty" and call friends to share it.

And going out to a nice restaurant is a lovely bonus, as is another evening with people whose company and conversation you enjoy. Keeping tabs on who owes you a dinner smacks of counting coup in the tackiest, mingiest way. It's like harboring a grudge about something that happened in fourth grade. (But there was that couple several years ago who accepted every invitation, never ever even spoke to us between times, and liked to pack up the leftovers for "tomorrow's lunch." I wrote them off when she got out about the fourth Glad-box and tucked in a stick of butter from the fridge door).

Though this is getting to be the era of pulling out all the stops, in acquiring just the right barware and decor and cooking paraphernalia, there are still good easy ways of sharing hospitality, from four courses in the chandelier-lit dining room to sitting down when the pizza box hits the coffeetable. If you like entertaining, choose your method---there's little enough time in this busy world, and we should not miss any chance to enjoy the company of friends.

[touaregsand]

I've known a few people who were extremely tit for tat. Every favor or gesture was expected to be returned. It was very uncomfortable for me. I could not be 'friends' with people who had strings attached. I even blurted out to one of them, "What do you want an eye for an eye?!?!?!" Overall I tend to be more generous than I am a taker. But I have two small children and a very busy schedule, especially when I had my design studio. I would get slammed with orders at unexpected times and simply could not follow up with reciprocal gestures in a narrow window of time. A year is good or eventually.

As a hostess I don't expect tit for tat. But the prolonged moochers eventually fall off the invite list. By moocher I mean someone who never reciprocates with anything! It doesn't have to be food related.

A few people on egullet help me occassionaly with research. One of them even obtained on loan a nearly impossible to find cookbook for me and my husband to look at. He also sends me web links. He brings Chinese candy and almond cookies for the kids.

I always bring something when I am invited, it's something my mother pounded into my head. But do not expect others too, another thing my mother pounded into my head. I was told by a French Basque friend that in certain circles in France it is actually considered rude to bring something as a guest, it suggests that the host will not be prepared. Alot of North Africans are the same way. There are cultural differences in what is expected from the guest and in return. In some cultures tit for tat is an absurdly rude concept.

The worst moocher I knew asked if I could buy some beer because he doesn't like wine. I mean really, the man can just bring some beer for himself. Has anyone experienced something similar? I do ask guests before hand what type of cuisine they want to try. But this request came out of the blue and I really took it as "buy me some beer."

[Al_Dente]

It's The Others I was talking about. The one who don't read this board. 

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Whew, I thought you were talking about me. That said, some sort of dinner at my place will be in order once I get past early July.

[Busboy]

It's The Others I was talking about. The one who don't read this board. 

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Whew, I thought you were talking about me. That said, some sort of dinner at my place will be in order once I get past early July.

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Get yourself married and we'll talk once the dust settles.

[rich]

The real bottom line on this is: invite people because you want to entertain them and enjoy their company, that should be enough pleasure. If it happens they bring a gift or return the invitation consider it a bonus, but don't expect or want it - that only causes disappointment and/or resentment.

[jgarner53]

Here's another twist. We have friends (their number is growing) with small children. We have extended numerous invitations to them for dinner, which are usually turned around to become invitations to their house (usually for pizza and a rented movie) so they don't have to pay for a sitter. While I love spending time with them, I would also like to cook them dinner because I feel like the hosting burden is always falling on them (by their own choice).

And because my husband brews amazing beer, and I'm a newly minted pastry cook, we usually bring beer & dessert, or at least offer, whenever we're invited anywhere.

[JPW]

Here's another twist. We have friends (their number is growing) with small children. We have extended numerous invitations to them for dinner, which are usually turned around to become invitations to their house (usually for pizza and a rented movie) so they don't have to pay for a sitter. While I love spending time with them, I would also like to cook them dinner because I feel like the hosting burden is always falling on them (by their own choice).

And because my husband brews amazing beer, and I'm a newly minted pastry cook, we usually bring beer & dessert, or at least offer, whenever we're invited anywhere.

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Question -- Are their children included in the invites?

[lesfen]

CHAOS!!! This has been my excuse for the past two years and man do I feel like an asshole about it! I need to get over myself and just have them over for a BBQ or something. Damn.

[Varmint]

I'll also note that even though it's never, EVER, expected, those who help a bit with the dishes are more likely to get invited again!

[Busboy]

I'll also note that even though it's never, EVER, expected, those who help a bit with the dishes are more likely to get invited again! 

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Amen.

[designchick88]

We like to throw parties and do so frequently. I am also a member of Generation X and I was taught (admittedly, by my very traditional Southern mother and grandmothers) that social invitations should always be reciprocated, preferably within one month. (They were also big on hostess gifts, another dying tradition.) When we first started entertaining, I fully expected to receive invitations in kind from our guests. Most of the time they never came. Eventually I learned that some people just do not entertain, even if the entertaining involves one other couple in their home over pizza. Other people would rather reciprocate by taking us out to dinner, which I think is fine. But we have some friends who have been to our house four or five times a year for the past three years, and we have never seen the inside of their homes. That's just a little weird, for me.

It's not that big of a deal to me, but in many ways I think the old tradition of reciprocal invitations is a good idea.

A. It keeps one or two couples in a social circle from being the "designated party givers." That is the role DH and I and one other couple in our group have fallen into. We give the parties, everyone else comes to them. I enjoy giving parties, but planning them, shopping, cooking food, cleaning the house etc. gets tiresome after awhile.

B. It allows for development of a social circle and allows people to get to know each other better, and gives people more opportunities to entertain. If that obligation of returning an invitation within a month was prevalent, people would get together more frequently and there'd be less party congestion around holidays. Last Christmas we didn't get a single invitation between Labor Day and Dec. 1; then we got inundated and had many more invitations than we could accommodate. It made me feel bad that we couldn't make it to Christmas parties fo people we had entertained, but when you have 4 parties scheduled for the same evening, what can you do?

C. I think it is just good manners that if someone has invited you into their home and given you food and drink that you should respond in kind. Giving a party can get expensive and I think it's just common courtesy that if you are given something, you give something back. For example, I was also taught that if you are ever given a gift (for Christmas or a birthday), you MUST give the other person a gift at the next appropriate occasion. That way everything stays fair, and there's not one camp of "givers" and another of "takers."

This all may be old, outdated etiquette, but IMO there are solid reasons for a lot of etiquette rules to exist. Although, I really mourn the death of etiquette when it comes to weddings, wedding showers and baby showers. But that's a whole other thread. :)