Table conversation at restaurantsWe were talking a

[jaybee]

It was, I suspect, the wryly comic incongruity between the ashes of the diseased and the ashes of the cigar that the woman found particularly upsetting.

Correct, John.  She was bothered by my wry comic telling of this bit of black humor about a subject that had (apparently) recently caused her great pain.That said, were the situations reversed, I would have quietly asked for another table far enough away to be out of earshot. I don't think it is her business to make her pain my problem.  It was an untoward imposition on our party, who had a perfect right to laugh at whatever we wanted to, as long as we were not overly loud and disruptive.  Yes Rosie, she had a lot of chutzpah.  But then that's what makes this circus we all live in interesting.  I'll get a lot of mileage out of the story.  She'll tell her friends how cruel people can be.  And in the end, who cares?

[tommy]

She'll tell her friends how cruel people can be.  

i bet not.  she will most likely forget about this little incident as time passes if she hasn't already.  afterall, it was merely an emotional reaction during an emotional time.  surely none of us are beyond reproach.  surely.

[heyjude]

Obviously, sensitivity about difficult subjects that might offend people nearby can't hurt and every case is different, but it does matter to me if my every thought has to be self censored in order to be easy listening (think Kenny G) for public consumption. There is someone out there to be offended by just about anything. Tommy, of course, we all make mistakes. We just don't need to have them all pointed out to us in restaurants.

[tommy]

There is someone out there to be offended by just about anything.

that's for sure.  i just hope they don't sit next to me!  

[Ruby]

This evening I was telling our table-mates a story about an acquaintance who asked that his deceased wife's ashes be buried in our rose garden (don't ask). I said the idea made me uncomfortable, as it would disturb my reverie lying in the hammock, smoking a cigar and sipping piña colada thinking that someone was buried under the roses. What to do? Suddenly a women from a nearby table came over to me, placed her hand on my arm, leaned close and said "I recently lost my sister.  I would appreciate your not talking so loudly about cremation and ashes."  

This is an interesting, thought-provoking thread. IMO, anything that has to do with human interaction, kindness and behavior is fascinating. I'm visualizing how I might have handled this situation from both ends.

I have a younger half-sister who has so many health problems as a result of being overweight and diabetic. I constantly worry about her but she doesn't want to lose weight (this is another story). If God forbid something happened to her, I would be very miserable sitting in a restaurant and hearing light banter being made about cremation and death. I might not have spoken up the way this woman did but I applaud her for speaking up in a non-confrontational way. I also feel Jaybee handled it well by not adding to her pain.

Had I been the one approached at the table, I may have initially felt defensive but would have quickly gotten over it. True, a restaurant is a public space and we have freedom of speech but clearly this woman was in pain. I would have said something like "I'm sorry to hear of your loss and I didn't realize you overheard this conversation." I would have promptly changed the subject and enjoyed the rest of the evening. A win-win situation.

On a lighter note, here's a conversation I overheard the other night between two young women.  They were initially discussing all the trendy downtown spots like Butter, Suba, Smith, and that got my Yenta attention.

Babe 1: He's cute and very affectionate but not in a needy way.

Babe 2: How does he dress?

Babe 1: Bleh, jeans from the Gap.

Babe 2: What else?

Babe 1: Loud colors. But hey he has good taste in restaurants so I'm happy.

After that I tuned out.  

[jaybee]

On a lighter note, here's a conversation I overheard the other night between two young women.  

That would make a fun thread.  Interesting conversations overheard in restaurants.  That's tangentially related to food and dining out isn't it?  Or is it too Oprah?

[Andy Lynes]

....think Kenny G....

I know we are talking about offensive things on this thread, but that is going too far!

[yvonne johnson]

Andy, Wilfrid has now admitted that Engelbert Humperdink is "marvellous stuff". Where will this end? The Hump and Kenny G play the background music at Gotham.

Jaybee,  out of curiousity, are you going to permit the placement of the friend's wife's ashes under the roses?  Back to food--I heard roses like ashes.

[stefanyb]

There is someone out there to be offended by just about anything.

1)Some people's raison d'etre is to discover ever new reasons to be offended.  

2)I don't recall anyone contributing to this thread speaking to the fact that perhaps the restaurant contained too many tables for their patrons to have a conversation without an audience.

3)OTOH, people out in public need to always consider that they are not alone and that everything they do or say is part of everyone else's environment.

So, now that I've seen it from all sides, I do think that the woman should have asked to move her table if she had a problem with Jaybee's choice of topics.  She could have even left.....This reminds me of the many people I know whose credo is  "it never hurts to ask".  I've got news for them- it sometimes does.  The way I see it, these people are not taking responsibility for making a thoughtful judgement  and are placing the responsibility on others.

Jaybee had every right to talk about anything he liked at a modulated tone.  She had the right to move.  They both have the right to not frequent any restaurant that makes it impossible to have a reasonably quiet, reasonably private conversation.  If she was still in mourning, then she had the right to stay home.  Its not Jaybee's responsibility.

[jaybee]

Jaybee,  out of curiousity, are you going to permit the placement of the friend's wife's ashes under the roses?  Back to food--I heard roses like ashes.

Yvonne, no, we used bone meal as a subsitute for the real thing but didn't let on.  The roses have all since died.  Wonder what that means?

[Pan]

Andy, Wilfrid has now admitted that Engelbert Humperdink is "marvellous stuff". Where will this end?

Hey, Hansel und Gretel ain't half bad.

[tommy]

3)OTOH, people out in public need to always consider that they are not alone and that everything they do or say is part of everyone else's environment.

yes.  indeed. do unto others.

So, now that I've seen it from all sides, I do think that the woman should have asked to move her table if she had a problem with Jaybee's choice of topics.

nope. she should have reacted in a totally human way...and she did.  those beyond reproach...

This reminds me of the many people I know whose credo is  "it never hurts to ask".  I've got news for them- it sometimes does.  The way I see it, these people are not taking responsibility for making a thoughtful judgement  and are placing the responsibility on others.

those beyond reproach....

Jaybee had every right to talk about anything he liked at a modulated tone.  She had the right to move.  They both have the right to not frequent any restaurant that makes it impossible to have a reasonably quiet, reasonably private conversation.  If she was still in mourning, then she had the right to stay home.  Its not Jaybee's responsibility.

indeed.  we all have rights.  and with those rights come responsiblilty to those around you.  those beyond reproach...

f*cking soapboxes.  please....c'mon, y'all make me sick. walk a mile my friends...walk a mile, and then come and lay down some law.  ugh.

i wish i was (were) as perfect as our enlightened posters here on egullet.  

u

silly

b*stards.

walk a mile.

[Tonyfinch]

Jaybee had every right to talk about anything he liked at a modulated tone.  

This is NOT true. People patently do NOT have a right to talk about "anything they like" in a public place. It is NOT OK to talk about how good it must have felt to lynch blacks in Alabama,or how right Hitler was to gas Jews,  etc.etc.,no matter how "modulated" your tone.

However in Jaybee's case you are missing the point. No-one is denying Jaybee's right to talk about what he was talking about.What is in question is the woman's right to ask him to keep his voice down because what he was talking about was upsetting her. It is NOT the same as objecting to his clothes or the food on his plate,as 99% of people would see that as unreasonable,whereas I believe that a lot of people would see objecting to joking about death as reasonable,especially if you've just had a loss.

I say good on her. I also say that if Jaybee told her to go fly a kite then good on him. This is not about one person denying another "rights".It is about both people feeling able to express their views and make their point.If Jaybee refuses to comply then she can leave/ask to move table etc. as people have suggested,but to posit the idea that she doesn't have a right to voice her views in the first place is defensive and misguided.

[jaybee]

Sheesh, lighten up guys.  I found the incident interesting but not offensive.  I was chagrined, I felt for the woman, sorry that her pain made her do something that, normally, people would not do.  Her manner was very sympathetic. Her tone was sort of pleading. Sure she could have moved the table and said nothing.  That's what I might have done.  But then we're all different. I was free to ignore her and keep on talking (the story was finished), but that would have been cruel.  No harm no foul.

[mamster]

I trust everyone is familiar with the notion that once Hitler appears, the thread is over.  But that's a usenet-related doctrine, so I'll just jump in anyway.

First of all, this thread has been a blast to read.

Second, a good restaurant should have a bit of the agora to it.  This means that when I go to a restaurant, I should expect to hear other people's conversations, and I should also feel free to jump in if I'm interested, offended, or just nosy.  The original conversators may react as they please.

Now, of course, I'm very curious what would happen if people went to a restaurant and had a loud but not overly loud conversation about something offensive to basically everyone.  Someone invite Tony Bourdain to dinner, start dropping hints about your favorite San Francisco granola restaurants, and report back.

[tommy]

Someone invite Tony Bourdain to dinner, start dropping hints about your favorite San Francisco granola restaurants, and report back.

hehe.  

[Wilfrid]

u

silly

b*stards.

walk a mile.

I see you managed to fit some drinking in last night, Tommy.

While I think Jaybee was just remarkably unlucky to have been overheard by that particular person, I ultimately agree with Tony Finch.  It may be that people have a right to hold any views they please (there are counter-arguments, but let's stipulate that) - I don't believe they have the "right" to express those views in any manner they wish and in any place they wish.  It's a long way from Jaybee's innocent anecdote, but I think most people here - in practice - would draw a line somewhere about what they were prepared to tolerate in a public place.

By the way, I sort of mislaid my father's ashes.  I know roughly where they are, but other members of the family have always seemed to feel that I should know with more, er, specificity.

[Gavin Jones]

My Mother recently purchased for me and my sister a handsome pair of matching funerary urns for the contents of our ashes (post cremation - not for me if I go back on the gauloises).

I have no particular use for this item, but I wonder if it would be inappropriate to serve soup from it?

[tommy]

I see you managed to fit some drinking in last night, Tommy.

cleary you are all silly b*stards even when i've not had a few (too many).  cleary.

gavin, i'm guessing that they could easily be made into bongs.

[tony h]

Am I alone in not eavesdropping on other peoples conversations?  It just seems such a rude thing to do.

[tommy]

Am I alone in not eavesdropping on other peoples conversations?  It just seems such a rude thing to do.

you must have amazing self-control.  you can't see how sometimes you can't help but hear?

[Matthew Grant]

Am I alone in not eavesdropping on other peoples conversations?  It just seems such a rude thing to do.

Wierdo!

[Wilfrid]

Yes, I think it's just you, Blind Lemon.  In Manhattan restaurants, you'd need to wear earplugs to avoid it.  But, yes, yes we do listen, and many of my own dinner table conversations are actually about conversations we have just overheard.

[Liza]

If we don't eavesdrop, then the terrorists will have won.

[Miss J]

Am I alone in not eavesdropping on other peoples conversations?  It just seems such a rude thing to do.

you must have amazing self-control.  you can't see how sometimes you can't help but hear?

...especially when you're eating on your own. You put down your book to start paying serious attention to your dinner, but as absorbed as you are you can't help but noticed that the couple at the next table are discussing an "intimate" encounter with a C-list celeb.

I mean...c'mon guv, I'm only human.  ;-)

Miss J