Joong & Joongzi: The Topic

[hzrt8w]

by the way whats the official english name for zoong???

as i find it hard to explain to my non chinese friends

←

Why? Isn't "zoong" official enough?

I very much resist the so-called "Chinese Tamale" (though I must admit I had used it before for convenience).

Why don't we call it what it is?

Zoong = Cantonese/Toisanese

Zongzi = Official Chinese (Mandarin) = 粽 [zong4] 子 [zi3]

If we can maintain Tamale as Tamale, Croissant as Croissant, Crepes as Crepes, Sushi as Sushi, Parfaits as Parfaits, Fondue as Fondue, Souffle as Souffle, Spaghetti as Spaghetti, Kim Chi as Kim Chi, Pho Tai as Pho Tai, then what's wrong with using Zongzi in a standard English sentence? Do you call "Kim Chi" Korean pickled napa cabbage? Pho Tai "Vietnamese rice noodle soup with sliced of raw beef"? (If they don't know what Parfaits, Fondue, Zongzi are and seek for explanations, that's a different situation.)

After all, do you call:

Tamale (Mexican): Mexican Zongzi?

[Pan]

You've gotta be kidding, Herb. Joong are standard at dim sum places, are they not?

←

Hmmm..... I don't think so.

I think you were thinking of "Nor Mi Gai" [Cantonese], which is wrapped with lotus leaves (sticky rice, pieces of chicken, black mushroom, dried shrimp, lap cheung). This is a standard dim sum item.

Joong, which is wrapped with bamboo leaves (sticky rice, mung beans, salted pork, salted egg, black mushroom (maybe), dried shrimp (maybe), lap cheung (maybe), - that's only one version of it... or other ingredients) is offered more commonly in dim sum restaurants in Hong Kong, and very rarely in North America (well, in the ones that I've been to anyway).

←

You're right. Thanks for clearing that up. I think I've had both, but Nor Mi Gai is definitely more common in New York dim sum places. I didn't know its name.

[origamicrane]

by the way whats the official english name for zoong???

as i find it hard to explain to my non chinese friends

←

Why? Isn't "zoong" official enough?

I very much resist the so-called "Chinese Tamale" (though I must admit I had used it before for convenience).

Why don't we call it what it is?

←

hmmm..... well here's my reasoning

my non chinese friend: hey whats that little green parcel in your fridge tied up with string?

me: it a zoong

my non chinese friend: a what?

me: a zoong

my non chinese friend: a dune?

me: no a zoong

my non chinese friend: what is it?

me: it a massive rice dumpling

my non chinese friend: oouuuhhh.. whats in it?

me: glutinous rice, yellow beans, salted pork, salted egg, shitake mushroom, dried shrimp, chinese wax sausage, chestnuts wrapped with bamboo leaves.

my friend: can i try some?

me: sure

*a few minutes later*

my non chinese friend:: yum!! this is realy nice. what is this again?

me: a zoong

hehehe!!

life's too short

[origamicrane]

I think I will have you beat, origamicrane. My Mom and I usually make +150...This weekend, I will have 10 people for the session. 8 of my students want to come and learn also.

←

arrr.. but how big are they?

actually haven't been able to convince my mum to make zoong

she said she buy some instead sigh!!

[hzrt8w]

my non chinese friend:: yum!! this is realy nice. what is this again?

me: a zoong

hehehe!!

life's too short 

←

It is time the rest of the world gets baptized with some international food culture.

Can you imagine a world where the English insist on calling "long thin yellow noodle" for spaghetti and "baked dough topped with cheese" for pizza?

[hzrt8w]

actually haven't been able to convince my mum to make zoong

she said she buy some instead sigh!!

←

What's stopping you from making zoong?

You know all the ingredients and where to get them. You have the knowhow to make them. (If not, we'll help you. It's much easier than you imagine.)

Added bonus: you can turn around and sell some to her!

[origamicrane]

actually haven't been able to convince my mum to make zoong

she said she buy some instead sigh!!

←

What's stopping you from making zoong?

You know all the ingredients and where to get them. You have the knowhow to make them. (If not, we'll help you. It's much easier than you imagine.)

Added bonus: you can turn around and sell some to her!

←

true! true!

I can make them, just not as good as my mom

(isn't that always the way with chinese food)

mmm.... i might be sneaky if i go buy the ingredients this weekend

I can probably convince her to make some next weekend

afterall she won't allow all that stuff to go to waste

chinese mothers are so predictable hehehe!!

[Ben Hong]

Let me make a few of observations on the discussion so far:

Joong is not the real pronunciation in Toisanese. We pronounce it "doong" with more or less a soft "d". The proper full name is "guo doong". Pronounce it "joong" and it means a jar or bottle. Joong is recognizable by most Cantonese and Toisanese, though.

There must be no compromise in nomenclature when it comes to using the original proper name for anything. A joong or doong or zhongzi is NOT a tamale and should not be compared to such.

Joong are rarely found in at yum cha (dim sum), but nor my gai is a popular treat in those restaurants. Joong are more often found in grocery stores, Asian take out snack counters, etc.

BTW, if my mother or Aunties had to boil their joong for five or six hours, there would not be joong made in our household - ever, for those ladies could not (would not) reconcile the cost benefit ratio of fuel/product and find it advantageous.

[hzrt8w]

Joong is not the real pronunciation in Toisanese. We pronounce it "doong" with more or less a soft "d". The proper full name is "guo doong".  Pronounce it "joong" and it means a jar or bottle. Joong is recognizable by most Cantonese and Toisanese, though.

←

<<<<< smacking my head by my wife >>>>>

Yes, yes. Thanks for the correction. Toisanese is "doong".

[origamicrane]

BTW, if my mother or Aunties had to boil their joong for five or six hours, there would not be joong made in our household - ever, for those ladies could not (would not) reconcile the cost benefit ratio of fuel/product and find it advantageous.

←

Why do you think its going to take some persuading to convince my mum to make zoong!!

The only reason you have to boil zoong for 5-6 hours is if the zoong you make are really big!! mine are about 6 inches long and 4 inches high and wide!!

(yes it is a sign that i'm crap at wrapping zoong!)but!!

eat one of those and you won't need to eat for the rest of the day

and it means there a lot more lui inside them hhhmmmmmm.... :)__ drooll!!

[Dejah]

Joong is not the real pronunciation in Toisanese. We pronounce it "doong" with more or less a soft "d". The proper full name is "guo doong".  Pronounce it "joong" and it means a jar or bottle. Joong is recognizable by most Cantonese and Toisanese, though.

←

<<<<< smacking my head by my wife >>>>>

Yes, yes. Thanks for the correction. Toisanese is "doong".

←

Add my smacks to your wife's. That's one smart lady.

Funny how revered writer, Grace Young, deemed it ok to call them Savory Chinese Tamales. Cuts down on the explantion, I suppose. I always called them sticky rice in bamboo leaves if they want a definition. My Caucasian friends and customers all called them joong, and there are many Caucasians, even on the prairies, who eat and love joong.

I don't know why the letter "z" is ever used... My Mandarin students never pronounce it with the z...but it is written everywhere with "z"...

[sheetz]

Funny how  revered writer, Grace Young, deemed it ok to call them Savory Chinese Tamales. Cuts down on the explantion.

I think back in the "old days" they were more apt to use these types of names for Chinese dishes. My parents still call dim sum "tea cakes."

My Caucasian friends and customers all called them joong, and there are many Caucasians, even on the prairies,  who eat and love joong.

That's great. I think that's pretty rare in the US, however, because joong/doong aren't usually served in restaurants.

[Tepee]

Hey people! Made some 64 nyonya dumplings and another 64 mini kan sui zoongs yesterday together with my SIL at my mom's. Put together a little how-to. It's not quite completed...will add more details later. Origame, you may enter only if you retract that fat and forty statement. Incidentally, tetrahedron-shaped zoongs are the more popular dumplings in M'sia.

Oh, and one of our better food mags, Flavours, have an excellent segment on zoongs (8 recipes!!!) in their latest issue. Scroll down a little and click on the selected articles for a good write-up.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[origamicrane]

Hey people! Made some 64 nyonya dumplings and another 64 mini kan sui zoongs yesterday together with my SIL at my mom's. Put together a little how-to. It's not quite completed...will add more details later. Origame, you may enter only if you retract that fat and forty statement.  Incidentally, tetrahedron-shaped zoongs are the more popular dumplings in M'sia.

Oh, and one of our better food mags, Flavours, have an excellent segment on zoongs (8 recipes!!!) in their latest issue. Scroll down a little and click on the selected articles for a good write-up.

←

ok! ok! i'll retract the fat and forty statement!!

[Tepee]

Now, that's a good crane . BTW, Msians do pan-fry their zoongs to develop that gorgeous crisp crust to dip in chilli sauce too.

[hzrt8w]

Now, that's a good crane  . BTW, Msians do pan-fry their zoongs to develop that gorgeous crisp crust to dip in chilli sauce too.

←

Tepee: Excellent pictures. Thanks for sharing.

The bamboo leaves that are sold here (in the US) are not as wide as yours. I found that it's easier if I add a third leave on top after putting on the liu (fillings). As a result, mine are elongated tetrahedrons. Yours look a lot prettier, of course.

Pan-frying joong... must be a different regional culture. In Hong Kong, most joongs are taken fresh off the boiling pot, peeled and straight on to the dining table. Drizzle on some pork fat and soy sauce, we are in business.

[Dejah]

Great picture tutorial, Teepee!

I will try and get some pictures of our session this Sat.

My leaves are soaking now. The pork butt steaks are covered and curing in coarse salt.

I will prepare the peanuts, dried shrimp, mushrooms, lapcheung, and boil the leaves Friday night. Is there any point cleaning house before hand?

Ben: Leslie and Sija are coming for the day. Leslie said she wants to make at least 6 doz for her freezer!

Edited June 9, 2005 by Dejah (log)

[Tepee]

Thanks, HZ and Sue-On. I've updated the 'tutorial'.

hzrt9w: Will you be making any this year?

Sue-On: Can't wait to see yours!

[hzrt8w]

Ben: Leslie and Sija are coming for the day. Leslie said she wants to make at least 6 doz for her freezer!

←

Are you soaking your sticky rice by the barrels?

[hzrt8w]

Hey people! Made some 64 nyonya dumplings and another 64 mini kan sui zoongs yesterday together with my SIL at my mom's. Put together a little

←

Tepee: Did you boil your bamboo leaves like Dejah does?

[Tepee]

Nope, no pre-boiling. Just wash each individual leaf and soak overnight.

About the pan-frying, although we do that, it's not often. Who has the will-power to resist hot steaming joongs, stretching the process further to pan-fry?

Edited June 9, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[herbacidal]

You're right. Thanks for clearing that up. I think I've had both, but Nor Mi Gai is definitely more common in New York dim sum places. I didn't know its name.

←

The easy way to distinguish is that joong are tied with string and no mai gai aren't.

[hzrt8w]

hzrt9w: Will you be making any this year?

←

Note: my screen name has a "8" in it. I am a Chinese. Everything has to be 8-8-8!!! Fat-Fat-Fat!!!

*cam* *cam* I am thinking about it. But my schedule now is so busy that I hardly have time to cook dinners, let alone making joong.

[Tepee]

hzrt9w: Will you be making any this year?

←

Note: my screen name has a "8" in it. I am a Chinese. Everything has to be 8-8-8!!! Fat-Fat-Fat!!!

←

Oopsie. Me finger must have punched the wrong key ((the finger ain't too happy figuring out your complicated profile name...yeah yeah, remember something about zebras and horses....)). You should be thankful I didn't punch an inauspicious number.

Edited June 9, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[Dejah]

You're right. Thanks for clearing that up. I think I've had both, but Nor Mi Gai is definitely more common in New York dim sum places. I didn't know its name.

←

The easy way to distinguish is that joong are tied with string and no mai gai aren't.

←

And nor mai gai is wrapped in lotus leaves where as joong is USUALLY wrapped in bamboo leaves (Chinese) or banana leaves in countries such as Malaysia, Singapore? Did I see somewhere that pandan leaves are also used in SE Asia?

I don't SOAK my rice. I just rinse them 3 times then drain to use immediately. I prepare 8 cups at one time as that's what my "traditional bowl" holds. One batch is being used while another is draining.

I also have a special table used only for this activity. It's an old card table of my mom's. When she moved in with my brother, she gave me the table for making joong as it is the perfect height to work on when we are sitting down for the all day session.

I wish I could get hemp for the wrapping. It looks so "authentic". I use a light gauge butcher's twine.

The joong made with half sweet and half Jasmine, I tie 2 together. The sweet rice ones are left single.

Traditions, don't cha know!