Wild Salmon, you say?

[Fat Guy]

Sam Gugino did a nice piece on wild salmon in Wine Spectator awhile back. He seemed pretty objective about the taste differences between wild and farmed, giving points to each:

Last summer, I tasted Copper River salmon and farmed Atlantic salmon from the Bay of Fundy in New Brunswick, Canada, at Oceana Restaurant in Manhattan. Pan-seared Copper River salmon was clearly the winner. It had a richer flavor and a firmer texture than the Atlantic species, and retained a more appetizing color. When grilled, the Copper River salmon again showed better, though the differences weren't as dramatic. In a salmon carpaccio, however, I preferred the raw Bay of Fundy species, which seemed richer, if chewier.

[Rebel Rose]

What I'm having a hard time figuring out is this:  I've noticed a difference in color, texture, and flavor between wild and farmed salmon, such that I've made "never go back" comments in the past.

As the fishermen here can tell you, the difference in taste and texture is due to the fact that wild salmon experience a range of water temperatures and diet, and most importantly, the strenuous exercise that makes the meat leaner, firmer, brighter and tastier.

(I grew up on a salmon/steelhead river in Washington State, and wrote a cover article on salmon fishing for Washington magazine.)

[*Deborah*]

Sam Gugino did a nice piece on wild salmon in Wine Spectator awhile back. He seemed pretty objective about the taste differences between wild and farmed, giving points to each:

Last summer, I tasted Copper River salmon and farmed Atlantic salmon from the Bay of Fundy in New Brunswick, Canada, at Oceana Restaurant in Manhattan. Pan-seared Copper River salmon was clearly the winner. It had a richer flavor and a firmer texture than the Atlantic species, and retained a more appetizing color. When grilled, the Copper River salmon again showed better, though the differences weren't as dramatic. In a salmon carpaccio, however, I preferred the raw Bay of Fundy species, which seemed richer, if chewier.

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Being mostly a Pacific wild salmon eater (with a little Scottish stuff thrown in when in the UK), I wonder how Pacific wild and Pacific farmed compare in a direct, side by side test like that...the farmed salmon you see around here seems absolutely insipid next to the wild stuff...that may also have to do with my food snobbery in this case. I mean if you order salmon somewhere where it's not the real McCoy, you usually get a noticeably inferior piece of fish. I'm no expert though. Maybe our farmed stuff is worse?

[Daddy-A]

Being mostly a Pacific wild salmon eater (with a little Scottish stuff thrown in when in the UK), I wonder how Pacific wild and Pacific farmed compare in a direct, side by side test like that...the farmed salmon you see around here seems absolutely insipid next to the wild stuff...that may also have to do with my food snobbery in this case. I mean if you order salmon somewhere where it's not the real McCoy, you usually get a noticeably inferior piece of fish. I'm no expert though. Maybe our farmed stuff is worse?

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The farmed salmon from BC is Atlantic salmon. Fish farms in BC don't use Pacific species. Seems the Atlantic fish is better suited (on a cost analysis basis I'm assuming) for farming.

For me, the "taste" factor, although it does come into play, is secondary to the environmental issues. Farmed fish could taste superior, and I still wouldn't eat it.

A.

[srhcb]

It's as wild as what they sell you as "wild rice".

SB (real wild rice advocate)

[robert brown]

Whoever commissioned the article or let it get set in type, as they used to say, deserves the Pulletzer Prize, to resurrect an old joke. To my mind it forgives the Times for much of the uncalled-for cheerleading they have done in the name of "gastronomy" in New York. For almost as long as I have been participating in eGullet (and I joined a month after it began) I have occasionally proposed that there be an area or forum to discuss faulty practices in the food markets. Let's hope this article reverberates, as I would hate to see its short-term reaction fade away. Even if we don't address the rip-offs formally, I hope we will be less reluctant to complain. I spend a lot of time in NYC's so-called gourmet food stores and I find something to bitch and moan about every time I go into one.

[jamiemaw]

The farmed salmon from BC is Atlantic salmon.  Fish farms in BC don't use Pacific species.  Seems the Atlantic fish is better suited (on a cost analysis basis I'm assuming) for farming . . .

For me, the "taste" factor, although it does come into play, is secondary to the environmental issues.  Farmed fish could taste superior, and I still wouldn't eat it. 

A.

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Our local choices are certainly made easier Daddy-A, by two factors: The cost of wild Spring salmon (King/Chinook in the US) versus farmed product are much closer. According to posts on this thread New Yorkers are currently paying as much as US$23 per pound versus US$9 per pound here in Vancouver. Secondly, they can not assure themselves that it's wild product, whereas fishmongers such as Longliner (didn't you work there years ago?) won't touch farmed product of any description.

Rebel Rose  As the fishermen here can tell you, the difference in taste and texture is due to the fact that wild salmon experience a range of water temperatures and diet, and most importantly, the strenuous exercise that makes the meat leaner, firmer, brighter and tastier.

Farmed product can have a 'looser' consistency (sometimes mushy), reminding of a mall-rat brought up on junk food. The test? Although farmed product grills well (the way its most often prepped in mid-priced restaurants), it does not a happy gallotine make. Nor, for that matter, will it take a marinade, such as the classic Blue Fjord-style. The soy and whisky in that marinade break the flesh very quickly: mush.

[Adiabatic]

In my opinion, of paramount importance is in the taste of fish is freshness and handling. I think its full well possible that a fresh farm raised salmon just out of the water for a day or two tastes better than frozen wild salmon caught last month. Fish doesn't seem to ship well either, and a wild fish transported from the west coast to east coast might suffer accordingly.

That said, if all things are equal, a wild salmon beats a farm raised salmon hands down. Better color, better texture, and of course better flavor.

I think its also worth noting that all salmon are not created equal. My personal preferance in order is sockeye, chinook (king), and silvers/pinks. Most or all farm raised salmon is Atlantic Salmon, which I haven't had the fresh vareity often enough to form much of an opinion, but it is generally regarded as substandard to king and sockeye.

A lot of salmon burgers in local pubs are made from chum salmon (also known as dog salmon because that was the type the indians fed to their dogs). The fillets are usually blackened are served with lots of fish sauce, so you really can't taste the salmon at all. With the crash of west coast chinook runs, chum salmon is becoming more popular, so be aware.

A final note is that farm raised fish in general has been an worldwide ecological disaster. Its worth avoiding for that reason alone.

[Rachel Perlow]

I checked their website, here's the page for the meal in question, Salmon with Basil, which is described as "Wild salmon on a bed of whole wheat orzo pasta with yellow and orange carrots and spinach in a basil sauce." No ingredient listing on the website.

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A quick follow up... I checked the box at Shop Rite yesterday. The title of the dish is "Salmon with Basil" and "wild salmon (with water, sodium tripolyphosphate)" is listed in the ingredients.

[jamiemaw]

In my opinion, of paramount importance is in the taste of fish is freshness and handling.  I think its full well possible that a fresh farm raised salmon just out of the water for a day or two tastes better than frozen wild salmon caught last month.  Fish doesn't seem to ship well either, and a wild fish transported from the west coast to east coast might suffer accordingly. 

That said, if all things are equal, a wild salmon beats a farm raised salmon hands down.  Better color, better texture, and of course better flavor.

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We've done quite a few side-by-side tastings. Much 'fresh' salmon is not necessarily--it can be as much as a week out of the water even in good metropolitan fishmongers.

FAS (frozen at sea) Sockeye and Spring (King) has tested very well, and given the choice, is virtually indistinguishable from fresh wild, as long as the thaw is slow and steady (36 hours), in the refrigerator and preferably on ice.

Thus (and as reported upthread), the real challenge for this coastal fishery is to educate the consumer and the restaurateur to FAS during November to May when, for the past few years, they have become more dependent on farmed product.

[dahlsk]

In addition to the Lean Cuisine claim of wild salmon, I believe I also saw that Subway is advertising subs and wraps with wild salmon. Has anyone else seen these ads, and/or asked Subway about this?

dahlsk

[touaregsand]

I've never seen the high quality Alaskan Wild Salmon that is available to Restaurants in stores. The flavor and texture difference is very noticeable.

Alaska's Wild Fish.

[Fat Guy]

It's not unbelievable that an industrial frozen dinner producer would use wild salmon. It's not like every wild salmon has the chops to be served at Nobu. Somebody has to get the worst, bottom-of-catch, bruised, otherwise-unsellable crap. Although farmed salmon is on the whole cheaper than wild, those are generalizations -- there is likely a subset of the frozen wild catch that's really cheap especially if you're willing to warehouse it.

Likewise, a lot of claims about farmed salmon are generalizations. True, most farmed salmon doesn't get anywhere near the exercise that wild salmon do. True, Pacific salmon have their charms. But, for example, the salmon farmed in the Bay of Fundy, which has the world's greatest tidal variation, get significant exercise. And there are plenty of chefs -- serious chefs -- who will tell you they prefer farmed Bay of Fundy salmon to most any other salmon in the world for some applications (the two I've heard cited most often are sashimi and cold-smoked). Not that all Bay of Fundy salmon is excellent, but some of it is. I also wouldn't group all aquaculturists together in one category. I met people in the New Brunswick salmon industry who were quite ecologically sensitive -- I even went to a whole trade show where there were hundreds of salmon farmers around the place all going to lectures about sustainability et al. It's hard to take seriously the arguments of people who are totally opposed to all aquaculture. Like most things, it's beneficial when done right and harmful when done wrong.

[touaregsand]

Atlantic Salmon are found in Alaska.

Why are there Atlantic salmon in Alaskan waters?

Atlantic salmon are in Alaskan waters because thousands escape annually from fish-farms in British Columbia and Washington State.

EDI: more information on Atlantic salmon in Alaska

SECOND EDIT: In case someone misses the link at the bottom of the page here.

Edited April 10, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[emmapeel]

[Farmed product can have a 'looser' consistency (sometimes mushy), reminding of a mall-rat brought up on junk food. The test? Although farmed product grills well (the way its most often prepped in mid-priced restaurants), it does not a happy gallotine make. Nor, for that matter, will it take a marinade, such as the classic Blue Fjord-style. The soy and whisky in that marinade break the flesh very quickly: mush.

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Very interesting. If this is the case then the wild salmon I purchased has passed this test. I purchased it from "Fairway", but due to my laziness, it marinated for 2 days in my refrigerator. I was sure it would be ruined. It remained quite firm when sauteed, and was delicious.

[jamiemaw]

[Farmed product can have a 'looser' consistency (sometimes mushy), reminding of a mall-rat brought up on junk food. The test? Although farmed product grills well (the way its most often prepped in mid-priced restaurants), it does not a happy gallotine make. Nor, for that matter, will it take a marinade, such as the classic Blue Fjord-style. The soy and whisky in that marinade break the flesh very quickly: mush.

←

Very interesting. If this is the case then the wild salmon I purchased has passed this test. I purchased it from "Fairway", but due to my laziness, it marinated for 2 days in my refrigerator. I was sure it would be ruined. It remained quite firm when sauteed, and was delicious.

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Emmapeel,

Thank goodness, because at US$20 per pound (more than twice what we would pay here for guaranteed fresh product), a pudding of pink protein could make for a very unhappy Steed indeed. Had it been farmed, it likely would have been the CSI team and not him who you would have invited over for dinner.

I'd be interested to know what was in your marinade.

Edited April 10, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[emmapeel]

Emmapeel,

Thank goodness, because at US$20 per pound (more than twice what we would pay here for guaranteed fresh product), a pudding of pink protein could make for a very unhappy Steed indeed.  Had it been farmed, it likely would have been the CSI team and not him who you would have invited over for dinner.

I'd be interested to know what was in your marinade.

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Jamiemaw,

That is so funny. (I love CSI except for the gratuitous disgusting images.) The marinade consisted of Soy, pureed garlic and honey (in a glass refrigerator dish). I was so surprised when removing it from the marinade how firm the fish was, and did not smell. I expected it to be falling apart, and stink, and going into the garbage (not to mention the $20.) I didn't mention this before, but I even froze it after the two days of marinade for a week!. (Yes, I'm really lazy.) Before freezing it, I removed it from the marinade and put it in a freezer bag. If it stood up to this abuse, could it have been the real thing?

[jamiemaw]

Emmapeel,

Thank goodness, because at US$20 per pound (more than twice what we would pay here for guaranteed fresh product), a pudding of pink protein could make for a very unhappy Steed indeed.  Had it been farmed, it likely would have been the CSI team and not him who you would have invited over for dinner.

I'd be interested to know what was in your marinade.

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Jamiemaw,

That is so funny. (I love CSI except for the gratuitous disgusting images.) The marinade consisted of Soy, pureed garlic and honey.

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The soy may have preserved it. Over time it can stiffen the flesh to the point where it can appear petrifying.

Or merely scary.

Jamie

[jamiemaw]

It's not unbelievable that an industrial frozen dinner producer would use wild salmon. It's not like every wild salmon has the chops to be served at Nobu. Somebody has to get the worst, bottom-of-catch, bruised, otherwise-unsellable crap. Although farmed salmon is on the whole cheaper than wild, those are generalizations -- there is likely a subset of the frozen wild catch that's really cheap especially if you're willing to warehouse it.

←

Agreed: Wild pink and chum salmon can be less expensive than farmed product. Not incidentally, our cat enjoys a certain affection for chum salmon.

Likewise, a lot of claims about farmed salmon are generalizations. True, most farmed salmon doesn't get anywhere near the exercise that wild salmon do. True, Pacific salmon have their charms. But, for example, the salmon farmed in the Bay of Fundy, which has the world's greatest tidal variation, get significant exercise. And there are plenty of chefs -- serious chefs -- who will tell you they prefer farmed Bay of Fundy salmon to most any other salmon in the world for some applications (the two I've heard cited most often are sashimi and cold-smoked). Not that all Bay of Fundy salmon is excellent, but some of it is. I also wouldn't group all aquaculturists together in one category. I met people in the New Brunswick salmon industry who were quite ecologically sensitive -- I even went to a whole trade show where there were hundreds of salmon farmers around the place all going to lectures about sustainability et al. It's hard to take seriously the arguments of people who are totally opposed to all aquaculture. Like most things, it's beneficial when done right and harmful when done wrong.

True story. There are far too many generalizations about aquaculture; it has benefited the shellfish industry and its consumers enormously and, from all appearances, very safely. I would cite as positive examples the West Coast oyster and mussel industries, and perhaps the more recent successes of Hawaiian lobster aquaculture.

But let's get even more specific.

Just as all politics is local, so should fish farming be judged. The Bay of Fundy producers, whom Steven cites, are virtually unique. As Steven also points out, they farm in the greatest tidal flush in the world, which evacuates fish farm excrement and uneaten fish-pellet food waste twice a day. Not perfect, but certainly better than average. And Bay of Fundy farmers are also raising and harvesting a species—the Atlantic salmon—that is indigenous.

Not so on this coast where many farms are tethered in bays and fjords to weatherproof them. Unfortunately, calmer waters with less tidal action are not as effective in cleaning pollutive waste. The result: sea-bottom morbidity. Second, it is the Atlantic salmon that is being farmed on the Pacific coast and escapee Atlantic farmed stock, more aggressive than the five Pacific species and which also breed more often, appear to be encroaching on native stock habitat. Links to that research are upthread.

There are other long-term ecological threats too. But no issue associated with salmon farming has seized public attention like the recent research released regarding sea lice. The evidence is virtually conclusive that sea lice have infested many fish farms and are now attacking juvenile native wild stock at the time of their greatest vulnerability.

Here, in part, is what the University of Alberta report, as quoted in the New York Times of March 30, had to say:

"Sea lice live in salt water, and juvenile wild salmon first encounter them when they swim down river to the sea. The parasites bite fish to feed on their blood, creating open lesions that can disturb the fishes' osmotic balance with sea water.

With the advent of fish farms, anchored cages that function as underwater feedlots for hatchery-bred salmon, the juvenile fish encounter unusually large numbers of parasites, the authors of the new report say.

They did their fieldwork in April and May 2003, when they trapped about 5,500 juvenile pink and chum salmon swimming in a long, thin fjord in British Columbia that is also home to two salmon farms. Each fish was examined by hand for parasites. The scientists said they concluded that the fish were free of parasites until they neared the farms but that by the time they passed them and headed out to sea they could be so infested they ended up spreading parasitic contagion as they went."

NB: A link to the full synopsis of this report is available upthread.

This issue has crossed all political lines and has made for strange bedfellows: Few here will willingly give up a birthright based in a profound love for nature, and her natural harvest. So people as far right as Rafe Mair, a hard-bitten radio commentator and former provincial cabinet minister in the Social Credit regime, has vocally allied with folks he quite recently and derogatorily called tree-huggers.

The potential ironies and dangers of farmed product replacing wild stock are obvious.

Finally, and although farmed product is typically inferior to wild for most applications, that is but a sidebar to the main discussion of ecological endangerment. Even if it were superior, we would still ask: “But at what cost?”

There then, in an effort to get past some of the generalizations, are just some of the specifics about where we live—and fish. Thank you for the opportunity to add my voice.

Jamie

Edited April 11, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[redglass]

I'm guessing that if this is happening in NYC where consumers probably have one of the best selections of fish in the country, then the wild salmon we've all been eating is about as wild as my dog.

I am glad that they did give the actual season for wild salmon (never bothered to actually find out). On that note, do other fishes have a "season"?

[jamiemaw]

Here is the link to the discussion currently going on in the Vancouver/Western Canada forum

about sustainability issues and salmon endangerment.

[Sam Salmon]

The twist to this story is that lately there has developed a winter fishery for Wild Spring (Chinook) Salmon.

Salmon trollers-their ranks devastated by years of marginal catches and cut throat competition from Salmon farmers which has driven prices to all time lows-have started to fish in winter-a desperate undertaking off the west coast of BC and Alaska as you might imagine.

The prices they receive are excellent partly because of the novelty of fresh Salmon at that time and also because winter Spring Salmon are even more delicious.

Unethical operators in the fish business have then piggybacked on the success of these brave even foolhardy souls and sold their farmed slugs as 'wild' to a largely ignorant and unsuspecting public.

So it is possible to buy fresh Wild Salmon in winter but the supply is tiny and bound to be expensive.

[Adiabatic]

I also wouldn't group all aquaculturists together in one category. I met people in the New Brunswick salmon industry who were quite ecologically sensitive -- I even went to a whole trade show where there were hundreds of salmon farmers around the place all going to lectures about sustainability et al. It's hard to take seriously the arguments of people who are totally opposed to all aquaculture. Like most things, it's beneficial when done right and harmful when done wrong.

←

You last sentence is spot on of course, but on the whole, farmed fishing is a disaster. As others pointed it causes problems as a harbor for disease, output of waste, and escapism which degrades genetic fitness.

Another issue is that farmed fish are usually cheaper than wild fish often because of government subsidies. That puts economic pressure on wild fishermen (fishermen who fish for wild fish, who themselves may or may not be wild) to catch more, which leads to more overfishing, and more cheating in regulated fisheries. Farmed fish are fed other fish, usually wild fish and because of wastage other reasons this causes a net decrease of protien in the eocosystem. Which in turn causes more fishing pressure, not less.

All of these problems are solvable or can at least be worked around to some degree. Alaskans are motivated to protect their commercial stocks so solving the problems of farmed salmon was simple: Ban fish farming.

In Washington State where there are no commericial stocks to speak of, the choice is more difficult. For that reason I think it will take action on the consumer level. If consumers avoided farmed fish because of the problems it created, then the producers would be motivated to solve the problems. For the most part on the consumer level the choice is pretty easy because the wild stuff is better anyway.

[Pan]

[...]In Washington State where there are no commericial stocks to speak of, the choice is more difficult.  For that reason I think it will take action on the consumer level.  If consumers avoided farmed fish because of the problems it created, then the producers would be motivated to solve the problems.  For the most part on the consumer level the choice is pretty easy because the wild stuff is better anyway.

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You think that most consumers would prefer to spend three times as much for a superior product? Just what income level do you think most consumers are in? It seems to me a vain hope that people currently buying farmed fish will stop en masse in favor of a very expensive product. If anything, you might have a better chance persuading them to stop buying salmon at all.

[ChefCarey]

I have a bunch of salmon lore in my next book (no, I'm not trying to sell it here - won't be out 'til 2006) But, more to the point - I just bought a fresh salmon Friday - 12-pounder. I do a demo for my classes on how to fillet round fish, usually use a salmon. I'm not always able to specify wild or farm-raised - if I need a fish for class, I need a fish.

Quite often fish purveyors will deliver to me in boxes which were delivered to them. My fish came in just such a box - filled with crushed ice. This box was apparently built and designed to solely (no pun etc)transport salmon. On either end of the box was this nomenclature: "Wild Salmon" (followed by a little box to check) "Farm-raised Salmon" (again, followed by a little box to check.)

They had neatly solved the problem by checking neither box.

A tip: Quite often the farm-raised salmon were "farmed" is such tight quarters the dorsal fin (the big one on the top for you landlubbers)is malformed or even totally flattened out - the only remnants of it being the underlying bone structure when one opens the carcass.