French cooking

[Ptipois]

OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

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Well, is it that do you expect you won't, on this particular subject?

It's true that the French are not usually big experts on rice. Other nations are much better at it. There are weak points and undeveloped fields in every cuisine and this is one. Our habit of cooking rice in plenty of salted water (riz à la créole) has resulted in much soggy white stuff on dinner tables. But we're pretty good at provençal tians (plenty of flavors), baked rice puddings, and the technique of pilafs cooked in meat stocks has been mastered a long time ago by French cooks, resulting in delicious "riz au gras", my favorite recipe including bay leaf, whole almonds, a few sultanas and petits lardons.

I first found the recipe in a Claude Peyrot book, where this rice was to be used as stuffing for a guinea-fowl. It is wonderful and can be served on its own.

Just what kind of rice recipe would you like to read about?

[SobaAddict70]

another aspect that i think enforces the snobbery thing is this

there are chinese takeaways,

there are indian takeaways,

there are thai takeaways,

there are italian takeaways,

there are fish and chips takeaway ,  (british)

there are kebab takeaways, (med- middle east)

there are hamburger takeaways, (american)

but has anyone seen a french takeaway outside of france??

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Do pommes frites, quiche and baguettes count?

I don't think snobbery plays into it so much as the perception that to do well, French food isn't easily duplicated in a takeout restaurant. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist somewhere, nor does it mean that it can't exist ever.

Soba

[SobaAddict70]

There *are* cooking threads in the French forum. Perhaps not very many, but they do exist. You just have to look for them.

The ones that spring to mind most is The Montignac Method and Expat Thanksgiving. Both feature French home cuisine.

Soba

[Ptipois]

another aspect that i think enforces the snobbery thing is this

there are chinese takeaways,

there are indian takeaways,

there are thai takeaways,

there are italian takeaways,

there are fish and chips takeaway ,  (british)

there are kebab takeaways, (med- middle east)

there are hamburger takeaways, (american)

but has anyone seen a french takeaway outside of france??

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The reasons for this are probably many. But I can already point out that French cuisine, by essence, is not suited to street culture. It is indoor food. There are a few things we're not good at: street food, eating at any time of day and night, assembling ingredients into dishes that can be easily portioned and taken away. The structure of our meals and the social aspects of our traditional cooking make French cuisine a little stiff. It is not so mobile and adaptable as other cuisines, because we no longer have a snack culture (we used to, long ago). I've often deplored this.

[Busboy]

One more thought on the snobbery/complexity front (not that I retreat for a second from my assertion that French Cooking is generally more complex than the American cooking many of us grew up with -- Hell, you have to cook the French Fries twice in France!).

Not in Brittany - all joking apart, there are two schools for the fries. The one-stage fying and the two-stage frying. Which in a way confirms the complexity thing, but if I may allow myself to insist, French restaurant food may be described as complex and sometimes snobbish. French popular traditional food is no more complex or snobbish than British, Chinese, Thai, Mid-Eastern food, etc. Indian cooking, when done properly, IS more complicated than French cooking. It all depends on what you mean by "American cooking many of us grew up with" because I don't have a clear idea of this.

point of ignoring the more human aspects of this (still) living tradition.

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To dramatically oversimplify, think of the difference between making a pan sauce and not making one after pan-roasting meat. Think of cutting a chicken into pieces before oven-roasting and trussing it. Between straining vegetables out of the braising liquid, skimming it, and returning the meat for a second braise, with fresh vegetables before serving. Between shelling your own peas and buying them frozen, or dredging fish in corn meal and frying it and dusting it with flour and properly sauteeing it. Blanching and not blanching, dramatically greater use of herbs (finding or growing fresh herbs), leeks and garlic...

I ate a lot of good food growing up, and I have no idea how my home cooking compares to that of an average Bretonne (except that I cook my frites twice --though I usually just make pommes persillade because it's less of a mess ), but it seems that everything I make now takes a couple more steps than if I just cooked the way mom did.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[chefzadi]

I don't think snobbery plays into it so much as the perception that to do well, French food isn't easily duplicated in a takeout restaurant. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist somewhere, nor does it mean that it can't exist ever.

Well in France the traditional take aways as they are called here are different. It is entirely possible to purchase a full meal by shopping at the charcutier, the traiteur, fromagerie, boulangerie, patisserie, , etc... in France. It's not as complicated as it sounds, stopping at all those shops.

Also the French aren't very entrepreneurial in the way that say Korean-Americans are. We don't immigrate to America and then open up businesses so quickly. Another factor is that because there is a perception that French food (and other things) should cost more and that customers are willing to pay more, I've seen French cooks/chefs of all sorts over extending their areas of culinary expertise and opening more upscale or expansive places then they normally would in France. Like the baker and pate/sausage maker who have full blown restaurants here in LA for example. The breads are good and the duck confit are exceptional at these places, but the other dishes fall short. Another factor of course that in LA the market is different, so a traditional French bakery would have to serve other things in order to survive. Or do some wholesale, which wouldn't be that hard to do. But as my wife likes to tell me I wouldn't recognize a business opportunity if it came and bit me in the ass." We also don't talk about money, finances and business openly as some other cultures do, so this prohibits the entrepreneural spirit as well. Basically we're not a capitalist culture.

Although in LA we have a French-American chamber of commerce.

The reasons for this are probably many. But I can already point out that French cuisine, by essence, is not suited to street culture. It is indoor food. There are a few things we're not good at: street food, eating at any time of day and night, assembling ingredients into dishes that can be easily portioned and taken away. The structure of our meals and the social aspects of our traditional cooking make French cuisine a little stiff. It is not so mobile and adaptable as other cuisines, because we no longer have a snack culture (we used to, long ago). I've often deplored this.

It's fork and knife food. The first time my wife went to France she noticed immediately that we eat even French fries with forks. The closest I can think of to "street food" are those North African and Middle Eastern owned kebab and couscous places. I think those might be the most casual. I enjoyed street food in Algeria and Korea, but I just can'y imagine French food in this context. I mean what would we serve? We eat open faced sandwiches with a knife and fork for crying out loud.

[origamicrane]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

[zeitoun]

It's fork and knife food. The first time my wife went to France she noticed immediately that we eat even French fries with forks.  The closest I can think of to "street food" are those North African and Middle Eastern owned kebab and couscous places. I think those might be the most casual. I enjoyed street food in Algeria and Korea, but I just can'y imagine French food in this context. I mean what would we serve? We eat open faced sandwiches with a knife and fork for crying out loud.

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This is true however, even if snack culture in France is certainly not comparable to other countries in terms of variety, it does not mean it doesn't exist. The snack "par excellence" in France is still the one you could find in your corner Boulangerie for instance. There is a common misconception here in the US that your traditional viennoiserie is just breakfast food. In France it actually is more than that. Croissants, pains au chocolat, pains aux raisins, pains aux lait, chaussons aux pommes which you can find at every French street corner practically, also constitute a typical light snack that the French will eat throughout the day. In addition, there is a tradition almost evolving around the French "quatre heure" (four o'clock snack) which for many kids in France who are coming out of school (and grown ups coming out of work) will often consist of a viennoiserie of some sort. For a more substantial lunch type of snack, there is the classic and ubiquitous baguette sandwich of jambon/saucisson beurre, jambon fromage, thon crudites... I do not recall ever seeing one boulangerie that does not sell it.

When I was living in Paris I have seen quite a few frenchmen/women sitting on a park bench for lunch savoring a jambon beurre, without a knife or fork .

This is a "french fast food" concept that still hasn't taken hold here in the US.

[chefzadi]

That's the thing too. We sit down to eat. In Seoul you'll see people just standing in front of a stall eating. In America people walk while eating.

EDIT to add:

When I was living in Paris I have seen quite a few frenchmen/women sitting on a park bench for lunch savoring a jambon beurre, without a knife or fork biggrin.gif.

This is a "french fast food" concept that still hasn't taken hold here in the US.

I miss that alot. minus the jambon of course. It's nice to be able to buy a pastry or a baguette with good cheese in it and take it to one of the many parks in Paris. That's one of the things that makes Paris so pedestrian friendly.

Edited March 16, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Busboy]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

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"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homarde americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go."

"You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?"

"Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?"

"We got a Cote Rotie"

"That'll do."

"That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag."

30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!"

Edited March 16, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[chefzadi]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

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"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homard americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go. "

"You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?"

"Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?"

"We got a Cote Rotie"

"That'll do."

"That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag."

30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!"

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Do you want that supersized?

[chefzadi]

I just thought of crepes. I suppose that could be turned into street food of sorts. Beignets too.

[origamicrane]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

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"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homard americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go. "

"You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?"

"Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?"

"We got a Cote Rotie"

"That'll do."

"That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag."

30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!"

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Do you want that supersized?

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you want fries with that?

[Busboy]

hmm.. there a new business opportunity fast french food.

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"Gimme two vichyssoise, a couple a homard americains , a pavé bernaise, three pommes Anna , three haricots verts an isles flotant and two chocolate mousses to go. "

"You want Burgundy or Bordeaux with that?"

"Two white Bordeax, and you got any Cotes du Rhone?"

"We got a Cote Rotie"

"That'll do."

"That will $86.57, monsieur. Your plus fours are in the bag."

30 minutes later. "Merde, I forgot to get the brie!"

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Do you want that supersized?

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Hypersized

[Maison Rustique]

FWIW, we do have at least one French take-out place here in Orange County, CA.

[jayt90]

The stress on restaurant cooking in this subsection probably puts everyday French food in the background. And the French amongst us (I, for instance) never think of starting a thread about poulet à l'estragon because they already know a lot about it and have no special questions to ask. But they (or rather I) sure would love to be asked about it.

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A few months ago I had some questions about capons, and AOC chickens.

I asked about them on the French forum, and got no replies.

Haven't been back since...

[bleudauvergne]

The stress on restaurant cooking in this subsection probably puts everyday French food in the background. And the French amongst us (I, for instance) never think of starting a thread about poulet à l'estragon because they already know a lot about it and have no special questions to ask. But they (or rather I) sure would love to be asked about it.

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A few months ago I had some questions about capons, and AOC chickens.

I asked about them on the French forum, and got no replies.

Haven't been back since...

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Sorry you were so discouraged, Jay. Sometimes if no one has an answer to one very specific question it will go unanswered. It's happened to me as well. But I come back anyway. Nice to see you're back participating. I hope to see more of you.

From what I recall, in one post, you asked some very specific industry standard questions about capons in one post and then never came back to share any info you did obtain.

This is the post, right?

If you aren't getting your answers on the France forum, it's a great idea to ask the vendor of the product and then come back and follow up with it. I can't count the number of times I have asked a question, got no response, did my own research, and then come back and posted it as a followup. After putting a little effort into it, people's interest can be piqued and conversation can develop from there.

[chefzadi]

The stress on restaurant cooking in this subsection probably puts everyday French food in the background. And the French amongst us (I, for instance) never think of starting a thread about poulet à l'estragon because they already know a lot about it and have no special questions to ask. But they (or rather I) sure would love to be asked about it.

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A few months ago I had some questions about capons, and AOC chickens.

I asked about them on the French forum, and got no replies.

Haven't been back since...

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That's cause I wasn't here a few months ago. I actually went through the Middle East/Africa forum one day and looked through all the threads and tried to answer questions that hadn't been. I'll try to do that with the French forum. But I'm not a food historian or much into food trivia. I can answer questions about regional French cooking. I can answer technique and recipe questions. The restaurant business. But stuff like, "why does Keller wash his bones for stock?" "cause he doesn't know how to skim his stocks? Don't know why he does it. But I can tell you how I do it and how alot of other French chefs of a certain calibur do it.

[zeitoun]

That's the thing too. We sit down to eat. In Seoul you'll see people just standing in front of a stall eating. In America people walk while eating. 

You're right, what really shocked me when i first came to live here was the amount of people on the streets you'll see munching and walking at the same time, amazing!!

Good thing you mentionned crepes that I forgot about and beignets (I guess the french counterpart of a doughnut) which I believe you can still find sold on the streets of Paris, they are good examples of classic "French fast food".

How about "gauffres" (waffles?) which for many years were found in "kiosks" throughout the various Parisian parks. And in the winter another favorite Parisian quick snack is roasted chataignes (chesnuts) which you will see many vendors roast on top of custom made steel drums and sell on the streets.

So the French do snack after all!!

[Wolfert]

I can't think of a town around the Mediterranean where food isn't sold on the street--- to be eaten on the street.

I think the Sicilians have us all beat with their French-style brioche stuffed with ice cream. A great breakfast treat on the run-- or walk---through the streets of Palermo.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Wolfert (log)

[Busboy]

True. Nice was full of great stuff when I was there.

[Bux]

. . . . it seems that everything I make now takes a couple more steps than if I just cooked the way mom did.

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Are you implying you're a French cook and your mom wasn't, or is it just that you're a better, more thorough and dedicated cook than your mom. No disrespect intended to your mom and I suspect there are tens of thousands lousy home cooks in France. I've met plenty of Frenchmen who think I'm obsessive in regard to food and cooking.

[zeitoun]

I can't think of a town around the Mediterranean where food isn't sold on the street--- to be eaten on the street.

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Although it is not sold on the street technically, your remark makes me think of the Pissaladiere which is very common in Provence, it is in my opinion another example of the simplicity and beauty of French cuisine.

Pissaladiere is nothing but a French Provencal interpretation of pizza with olives, onions, garlic and anchovies amongst other things.

[Behemoth]

The closest I can think of to "street food" are those North African and Middle Eastern owned kebab and couscous places.

What is interesting about this is that eating on the street is definitely not an arab practice. It would be considered pretty rude to eat on the street, out of respect for people who might be fasting or cannot afford to buy the same food. Typically you buy stuff from street vendors, but then you take it inside (school, work, home) to eat it, sitting down. When my dad and friends of that generation first come to the US, that is typically the first thing they notice about Americans. (My favorite quote: "all walking around with cups, like babies with bottles!")

From my experience in Europe, people will buy street food but will eat it at a stand or bench near the takeout place, not walk around with it. Since my experience is mainly in Hamburg, it could also be that they don't want to risk spilling anything on their pristinely chic outfits

[Bux]

France is full of French takeaways. The French housewife has traditionally had to do very little cooking -- so many of the French specialties are available at the local épicerie, charcuterie or traitteur. The cold foods -- salades, pates, mousses, foods in aspic, etc. -- are eaten cold. The hot foods are rarely sold hot, but ready for the oven or broiler to be reheated. The latter include everything from stews to scallops in a shell with sauce. Spit roasted chickens are a common sight all over France. Part of the problem is that French food is not so different from American food at the basic level. Would a rotisserie chicken look differently in France than it does in the US? No. It might taste better, but I assure you that the majority of Chinese, Indian, etc. takeaways, produce less than perfect food. The stew you buy in a can, (I don't mean you personally) is not so different in principle than the one the French housewife buys in a shop. Of course the quality may be far different. Part of the problem is that French food is not as different from American food on that basic level.

I've never understood why there are so many takeout Chinese places. Stir fried food suffers miserably in any container. The vegetables steam to death in the container and the dishes don't reheat well. It may be that that we don't have a French immigrant population to provide cheap take out food. There's no incentive for a Frenchman to come over here and open such a shop, but much of the repetoire of French food, with it's stews and ficassees, takes very well to reheating.

There used to be "real" French food in NY. There were a slew of restaurants on the west side of Manahatten. They catered to workers on the French Line steamships and later attracted a local following. Those that remain moved closer to the theater district and now serve a clientele on the way to the theater. There are no passenger steamships to speak of.