New York's Most Over-Rated

[Pan]

[...]

bubby's. this popular "brunch spot" is an unpleasant delve into 3 year old drool and waitors who get next to nothing right. You could wait longer on the sidewalk, and at the table for your food to arrive that it takes to eat it. the faux rustic quaint thing placed in the middle of tribeca is perhaps the restaurants way of thumbing it's nose at our gullibility 'ha! you thing you are in hastings! pay 200.00 for this omlet the other table ordered'[...]

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Bubby's is pricey because it's in Tribeca and child-friendly, I think. I consider it overpriced, but I don't live in Tribeca or have a child. In terms of food only, it's just OK, not even particularly good, but it's not bad. And that quality for I suppose $25-30 for lunch ain't cuttin' it for me. But again, it's not just the food they're charging for. (Caveat: I haven't been there for at least two years if not three.)

[Bux]

. . . . I feel that the best reviewers can describe something well enough that, even if they give it a bad review, the reader should be able to make a good guess as to whether s/he would like it. And how useful I find a review on this site depends to a large extent on how well I know a member's taste and how closely I've found it corresponds to my own taste -- and that's regardless of whether the review is good or bad (in terms of rating, of course, not writing). I really don't understand why you wouldn't find a bad review as useful as a good review, if the same person was writing both and both were equally clear on what the cuisine was like and what the writer did or/and didn't like.

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Let's use positive and negative. A bad review might well be one that rated the restaurant highly but was poorly written as you suggest. What I meant when I said "a postive review is always more meaningful to me than a negative one" is what I went on to say, but perhaps I can explain it more carefully. If someone finds some value in having eaten in a restaurant, there's a chance I will also find some value. True, some people have apalling taste and there's no guarantee, but a rave review offers hope of finding excellence. A negative review is less of an indication that there's nothing to like. It's all too possible that it just didn't appeal stylistically to the diner. Given the choice of two restaurants, one that's gotten two middling reviews and another that was given a rave review and a horrible pan, I'd opt for the second. It just seems more interesting, offers greater hope of excellence. Granted that hope must be weighed against the chance it will be a disaster of a meal, but I'm willing to take the risk. I fear missing the great meal more than I fear getting the awful one. There are, of course, many other variables that come into play. Abstracting this one point makes for a more theoretical situation than we're likely to encounter in real life.

[Pan]

[...]Given the choice of two restaurants, one that's gotten two middling reviews and another that was given a rave review and a horrible pan, I'd opt for the second.[...]

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Oh, I see eye to eye with you here. If "you either love it or hate it," you might love it (or you might hate it). But if there's a consensus that something is mediocre, you'll probably find that it's mediocre. That said, when people whose taste I respect tell me a meal somewhere sucked, I take that as seriously as when they tell me they loved their meal.

I'm not sure whether I'd feel worse about missing a great meal than having a horrible one, though. I rather expect I'd feel worse about having a horrible meal, for the most part.

[jogoode]

Since I began this topic, I'll start with my top five:

1. Peter Luger - has been living on its laurels for the last 20+ years. The people who like it now either never tried it in the 60s and 70s or have forgotten when it was the best in its category. (This doesn't include the lunch hamburger, which is still the best value in the city.)

Peter Luger's rocks. Name a better steakhouse (piece of meat)...

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In this month's GQ, Alan Richman write about "10 Restaurants that Still Matter". He mentions French Laundry, Inn at Little Washington, and Commander's Palace. Though the article is neither detailed nor interesting, it's worth mentioning here because one of his ten picks is Sparks!

The sirloin strips continue to be the best in the city.

[Dryden]

Personal opinion only

We have found the following to be direly over rated based on our vistis

Union Square

Le Bernardin

P Luger

Daniel [over and over and over!]

Gotham

Shakey recently [not originally]

Aureole

Jean George [used to be exciting...no longer]

Don't see the enthusiasm for

Veritas

Gotham

equivocal on Gramercy

No longer find these A"wow!!!"

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So, other than Per Se and ADNY... What's left?

[robyn]

So, other than Per Se and ADNY...  What's left?

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I've mentioned before that on our last trip to New York in October - our favorite restaurant was David Burke & Donatella. Per Se was more competent technically (we ate there too). But we just had an overall better experience at DB&D (could have something to do with the fact that I really hated eating at 5:30 - I like to eat at 8 - not at the early bird special - or that my husband's wine was mediocre - whatever). Seems that other people really like the restaurant too. You can read what eGullet people have said about it here. We only ate once at ADNY - in 2001. It was a fabulous meal - but I don't know what it's like today. Robyn

[Felonius]

In my experience, the most consistently overrated restaurants are chains operated by celebrity chefs. Emeril Lagasse and Wolfgang Puck's places come to mind (though I had a great meal years ago at the original Spago, and the original Emeril's in NOLA is still quite good). These places usually seem to adhere to a formula which suffers from lack of attention over time. I still think the original Jean-Georges in NYC has great food, but have been relatively unimpressed with JG's other ventures.

Also, I think some of the past NYC greats are either resting on their laurels, or have simply failed to keep up with the ever-escalating food wars in NYC. Chanterelle, Montrachet, Aureole and Picholine come to mind in this category.

For the record, I think that Le Bernardin is one of the old guard that still delivers the goods - albeit in a style and fashion that may seem staid compared to the newer crop of "wow" destinations.

[emsny]

I still think the original Jean-Georges in NYC has great food, but have been relatively unimpressed with JG's other ventures.

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For the record, both Vong and Jo Jo pre-date Jean Georges.

[Felonius]

I still think the original Jean-Georges in NYC has great food, but have been relatively unimpressed with JG's other ventures.

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For the record, both Vong and Jo Jo pre-date Jean Georges.

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Good point. I was thinking of more recent additions, like Spice, 66 and the new steakhouse at Time Warner Center. To be fair, I think these places are better than Wolfgang and Emeril's expanding empires, and I probably should have left them out of this discussion. Also, I haven't been to Vong or Jo Jo in a long time, and had all but forgotten about them. I stand corrected.

Edited March 12, 2005 by Felonius (log)

[fauxtarga]

In my experience, the most consistently overrated restaurants are chains operated by celebrity chefs. 

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This also makes one think of the fact that there are different breeds of the "celebrity" chef. Surely Keller and Achatz are celebrities, but I wouldn't put them in the same league as Lagasse and Mr. Puck.

[Jason Perlow]

fauxtarga: I wouldn't use the term "league". Keller is definitely in the same "league" as the others you mention, in terms of success as a chef/restauranteur, the only difference is that if he WANTED to be on TV constantly and to over-commercialize his image he certainly could, without any difficulty whatsoever. Keller has had a few products over time that have been marketed with his name on it, but they haven't really been hugely successful. I think its simply a case of the mass marketing that needs to be done in order to have a successful product line as a celebrity chef, and he hasn't been able to or refuses make himself do that.

Achatz is not in the same "league" as Keller, Lagasse and Puck because he doesn't own several restaurants. Alinea is to be his first, with considerable financial backing from 2 partners. I have no doubt however he'll be at Keller's level in 10=15 years, though. He's still very young.

[Ruth]

And one shouldn't need to have friends in the kitchen to get a great meal at a very expensive supposedly great restaurant.

By the way - we had a totally mediocre meal at Wolfgang Puck's in Beverly Hills too.  People I've spoken to with "friends in the kitchen" there have had different experiences.  Robyn

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I am going to get some brickbats here. I am afraid this is what happens at Per Se - you have to know someone in the kitchen. For this reason, and because we had a disappointingly mediocre meal there, I would put it in the "overrated" category

[robyn]

And one shouldn't need to have friends in the kitchen to get a great meal at a very expensive supposedly great restaurant.

By the way - we had a totally mediocre meal at Wolfgang Puck's in Beverly Hills too.  People I've spoken to with "friends in the kitchen" there have had different experiences.  Robyn

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I am going to get some brickbats here. I am afraid this is what happens at Per Se - you have to know someone in the kitchen. For this reason, and because we had a disappointingly mediocre meal there, I would put it in the "overrated" category

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Our meal at Per Se was excellent (in terms of the food) - even though we had the 5 course menu which so many people said was sub-par compared to the tasting menu. Perhaps I thought it excellent because I picked out things I know I like eating - even when the preparation is simply average.

The setting was plush - very well done. But there was something lacking. No "buzz" for lack of a better word.

There were some things I really didn't like about Per Se. The ridiculous seatings for one. We had a 5:30. Other people here get 10:00. If you're going to strive to have a world class restaurant - well I don't think that works with reservation hours that are either too early or too late. Make the meal shorter (e.g., have a 6:30 and 9:00 seating). But don't ask people to eat at silly hours.

Moreover - the restaurant *opens* at 5:30. So if you have a 5:30 seating - and want to have a drink before dinner at the bar - you can't. You arrive at 5:15 - and wind up standing outside in a mall lobby until the doors open precisely at 5:30. Just makes you feel stupid. And - if things stay the same in terms of seatings - I for one would never go back just for that single reason.

Also - my husband's wine service was extraordinarily mediocre (even though he followed suggestions from the servers). He thought that since Keller was from California - he would have fine California wine pairings with the courses. Wasn't the case.

IOW - my conclusion about Per Se was world class food - not world class experience. And we didn't know anyone "in the kitchen". Robyn

[madziast]

i agree on Daniel, ADNY and Per Se (expectations ARE high), as well as Eleven Madison , Gramercy, L'Impero and Veritas (even with expectations in check) - serfvice. by the way, sevice is always good at all those but food not exactly transporting and i want to be transported when i spend upwards of $200+ a person and not solely by wine.

on the more casual end, Union Sq. Cafe, Lupa, Esca - all past their prime - so good when they first opened and on autopilot now. happens to most restaurants

zeitoun - i loved ari nieminen's food at firebird (he did cook meatless meals us though) but couldn't see how it would fit into cafe des artistes so never went. i think he is a very talented chef but am probably going to sit water's edge out, too. hope he finds the right place in the city soon, i would love to see him do more personal, as opposed to "an institution" type of cooking.

Spice Market - had an amazing meal cooked by Gray Kunz when they first opened and decent one after the review - it sort of felt like "now that we've bagged the review, we can start making $$" i definitely felt the drop in quality

davidburke is fun and exciting food but it has started feeling like bordering on autopilot too.

nicelhy surprised by a sushi bar meal at Geisha recently, excellent sushi chef.

while wylie is very creative and still very exciting as a chedf, individual dishes can be hit or miss. somewhat surprisingly, the food at Public has been really excellent lately (for me the last 2-3 months), with shiso-wrapped oysters, rare kangaroo on a falafel cake and ceviche of abalone mushrooms. just a lot of fun, excitement, and great flavors, too.

[zimonsays]

BLUE SMOKE...

[jogoode]

on the more casual end, Union Sq. Cafe, Lupa, Esca - all past their prime - so good when they first opened and on autopilot now.  happens to most restaurants

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Why do you think these restaurants are on "autopilot"? Have you had many poor meals in a row at any of these restaurants, or are you basing this judgment of, say, Lupa on one bad experience? I ask because the use of "autopilot" suggests you think that because Batali's attentions are elsewhere, his restaurants are left in the hands of line cooks or something. As far as I know, Mark Ladner is still chef at Lupa. And I doubt he's sleeping at the stove. I'm not saying that these restaurants aren't underperforming -- that could be true. But autopilot is not the right word.

I'll be boring and choose Dinosaur Barbecue as my pick for most overrated. I heard a lot of good things about it on eGullet and was disappointed to two times I tried it.

[Daniel]

I could say that Spice Market is by far the most over rated place.. First it got three stars.. Then i got raves here.. The place was fair at best..

I would also say the corner bistro is highly over rated.. Only because this place is so raved about.. And its average at best..

[Daniel]

I would also like to nominate Asiate.. Place not so good.

[rich]

I would also like to nominate Asiate.. Place not so good.

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I think you just did.

[Daniel]

Nope nope.. I said i would like to.. However, I am going to refrain.. Jerky.

[rich]

Are there any restaurants that anyone once considered over rated, but now think they live up to their reputation?

[R Washburn]

Jeans-Georges. I was lukewarm on it when it first opened, but now it is one of my favorite restaurants.

[robyn]

I'll be boring and choose Dinosaur Barbecue as my pick for most overrated. I heard a lot of good things about it on eGullet and was disappointed to two times I tried it.

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The menu is enough to put me off. They don't even say what kind of ribs they have. There are lots of different kinds of of ribs. Look here.

Even though I live in BBQ/smoking country - I'll be the first to say that it isn't one of the world's great cuisines. Even when done to perfection. Comparing any BBQ/smoking joint to ADNY or Per Se is just downright silly.

Is this supposed to be a big deal restaurant in New York? Or is it just kind of a novelty? Robyn

[robyn]

I'm not sure whether out-of-towners are allowed to vote here. Because we have limited experience. If we're allowed to vote - I'd have to say that the most overrated based on our last 3-4 trips to New York was Babbo (last October). Everyone here told me that we should have stuck to the pasta (which is excellent). But when I think world class Italian (and I've eaten world class Italian in Italy) - I don't think of a place where only the pasta is excellent. Especially since the place was relatively expensive (cheaper than Per Se or ADNY - but still a fairly hefty bill) - and the round trip cab from mid-town to the West Village wasn't cheap either.

I hate to be negative - so I'll say that the 2 best things we had in those trips were the tower of seafood at Balthazar - with the fries - and a nice bottle of wine - an early after-shopping before-theater dinner. And the dessert trolley at ADNY. Perhaps if we'd skipped the whole meal at Babbo - and just did some pasta at the bar - with a nice bottle of wine - I would have left with warm fuzzies instead of disappointment. Robyn

[Pan]

I'm not sure whether out-of-towners are allowed to vote here.[...]

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Nope.

Just kidding.