Culinary Tipping Points

[jamiemaw]

Over the past century and more, there have been many important culinary bellwethers--points in time and innovation--that describe the way we eat today in British Columbia.

Pull them all together and you get the timeline--and the sum--of what we eat and drink now.

What do you thing were the important benchmark points in our culinary past that pushed us so far forward?

Edited February 19, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Ducky]

In the early 1970's I think it was we had an NDP premier, Mr. Barrett, who went on a fact finding mission to Europe and was so impressed with people eating and drinking al fresco, that upon his return immediate legislative steps were taken to liberalize the liquor laws with a view to encouraging outdoor dining and drinking. This must surely be a milestone and a bellwether - and perhaps more than any other one thing helped this town to shake up the very stuffy fine dining scene that was then part of its Scots/Presbytarian past.

The same Mr. Barrett outlawed pay toilets in BC - and for these two initiatives alone he derves to be richly remembered.

[jamiemaw]

How about bread?

Of all the coming-of-age parables that define how we eat, bread is a pretty dependable bellwether. And if you look at the bread a local community eats you can pretty much tell:

a.) Where they came from; and

b.) Where they’re going.

A lot of good baking died off after the war when the big commercial bakers such as McGavin’s really started pumping out square “sandwich loaves” for big post-war families. White foam bread became the order of the day. You really had to go out of your way by the 60s to find flavour and texture and crust, sort of like a conversation with Mr. Talent. For me that meant a trip to the Austrian Bakery near 10th and Alma—spectacular crust and crumb; good mayonnaise and ham made an ideal sandwich. Afterward, a visit to The Cookie Jar in Kerrisdale to secure a long skinny date loaf and some cold butter would round things out till teatime. The Vancouver Club had spectacular, shrapnel-throwing rolls from its own bakery in the basement, now a health club of all things. But those bakers, largely European, began retiring and their children found more profitable things to do.

As for the bread renaissance? Many folks might attribute La Baguette (Granville Island) or Chris Brown and his partner Pamela at Ecco il Pane, originally baking from Lesley Stowe’s premises on West 3rd.

And I’ll never forget Michael Lansky from Terra Breads bringing a huge suitcase of bread off the airplane from Los Angeles. A vice-president of Oxford Development Group, he’d chosen another course for chapter two of his life, electing to learn the business of baking. He trained during vacation time all over the U.S., but mainly at the La Brea Bakery in L.A. Every few weeks, while he was scouting locations here, he’d roll in with his latest loaves. The fig and anise was revelatory and we tore it apart like wolves. His breads described where we were going.

That the Okanagan is rediscovering its culinary provenance is no secret, with chefs like Michael Allemeier at Mission Hill and Rod Butters at Fresco foraging locally for great stuff.

But the tipping point for the Okanagan might be found in its bread. Although it’s been possible to buy good, even excellent, bread in Kelowna for a long time—mainly through the excellent delicatessens like Illichmann’s, Reiner’s and the Sunshine Market—there’s always room for more.

Now they’re coming in droves.

I’ve been revisiting Pierre-Jean Martin’s and his wife Sandrine Raffault’s La Boulangerie, for their excellent soups, pastries, sandwich breads and baguettes. He uses only French flour but never, thankfully, the word artisanal.

Now Wine Access beverage writer Rhys Pender and his wife Alishan Driediger have opened The Okanagan Grocery on Gordon Road’s little food supply strip (what out-of-towners who do use the word artisanal would call Guisachan Village, but the locals call “That Place Next to the Big Fish Store on Gordon”). And yes, there are The Codfather Fish Store, L & D Meats, Paul’s Produce, and Liquids Liquor Store. Pretty handy. And now there’s some pretty good bread, too, including a sandwich loaf called OK Grocery, and a baguette that is more epis in dimension with a lovely crust but a very dense crumb. Fig and anis, and foccaccia and a chocolate loaf follow, but the cheeses straws were the hit of the expedition.

So, if my theory is at all valid, Kelowna must be on the culinary tipping point. Two small bakeries opening within just a few weeks of each other—and both acquit themselves well.

Edited February 20, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[jamiemaw]

In the early 1970's I think it was we had an NDP premier, Mr. Barrett, who went on a fact finding mission to Europe and was so impressed with people eating and drinking al fresco, that upon his return immediate legislative steps were taken to liberalize the liquor laws with a view to encouraging outdoor dining and drinking. This must surely be a milestone and a bellwether - and perhaps more than any other one thing helped this town to shake up the very stuffy fine dining scene that was then part of its Scots/Presbytarian past.

The same Mr. Barrett outlawed pay toilets in BC - and for these two initiatives alone he derves to be richly remembered.

←

True story, ducky.

And perhaps for launching the neighbourhood pub sheme too, although it was hog-tied from its inception by the Barrett regime's insistence on a neighbourhood "poll" that became impossible in time.

Interestingly, neighbourhood pubs never really took advantage of their mandate--at least not in food terms except for a few ouposts where the locals sat down to greet and eat. And to add insult, it was the pubowners' powerful lobby in Victoria, especially with rural MLA's, that dramatically slowed down the repeal of licensing that--only two years ago--finally saw restaurants being able to serve a drink without the draconian "intention to eat".

Edited February 19, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[bourdain]

This is a really interesting subject--the culinary "tipping point".

My theory, for some time, has been that the most significant point in modern North American culinary history was that moment when Westerners decided it was alright--even desirable--to eat sushi. That barrier-crossing raised all boats for all chefs of every stripe. Suddenly it was permissable to serve mackerel, octopus, fish roes, sardines and other traditional European seafood that were once largely shunned. What chefs found to be acceptable quality in seafood lept--as there was always a Japanese restaurant willing to pay for the good stuff (hence creating reliable demand for more variety and better quality). And once the bone-deep aversion to eating raw fish disappeared, other barriers fell as well. The dining public became more daring and willing to experiment.

[nwyles]

I am not sure which you might think the better of the two but here they are.

Two interesting points in B.C. culinary history were brought about by the same man.

I am not sure of the exact dates - I will leave that for others to add in.

George Tidball introduced two restaurants to B.C. , both somewhat similar but also very different.

In about 1967, MacDonalds came to Canada. George Tidball obtained the rights to expand into Canada. He eventually departed from them to start up his own company in about 1970 , The Keg ( and Cleaver )

One Fast Food and the other , possibly what was to become Casual Fine Dining.

If you reflect, the core menu of each has not changed. Unfortunatly, the delivery of that core menu has certainly changed over the years. I think one for the worse and one for the better.

Discuss.

[Vancouver]

I think we also have to add the return of Hong Kong to China, and the increased immigration that came as a result of that in the mid 90's to the list. No?

Cheers!

[ssherwood]

Jamie, you hit the nail on the head.

Staple items will always be the key indicators of change. Daily, routine and comfort choices are the baby steps our palates take on the road to evolution and education. The giant strides are made in giant minds of the Ferran Adria's, while Julia holds the hands of the rest of us trying to keep up.

The pop quiz, to see what we retained, is on the street corners of robson and thurlow. Who's willing to shell out $4.50 for a coffee? What was once unthinkable, had evolved to Artigiano boasting the world's no.2 barista. Did we ever know what a barista was before?

Stape items, for me, are defined by a daily recurrence. Bread, coffee, beer. It encompasses an even broader range, but to understand what happened to this city foodwise, I suggest we look at those three.

1981. My family returned from a trip to Denmark, where my father toured the Tuborg brewery. Upon his return, he began building Canada's first microbrewery, the Granville Island Brewing Co.. Nothing better to a growing boy with a developing appreciation for suds than a father driving the Bavarian Purity Law of 1516 into his head before he can even get past the first sip at dinner.

This spawned the beginning of our experience with the now worldwide appreciation of microbrewed, locally represented and unadulterated beer.

Date unknown, Starbucks begins phase one of world domination plan. Consumers go from (shudder) double/double, Nabob and Irish Cream Flavoured coffee to knowing the difference between robusta and arabica, shade grown, kona, pea berry and hell, even Cervil Cat Fecal Coffee. We have opinions on how to properly pour a ristretto, what roast the bean should be and whether a burr grinder achieves the best results. Cappucino machines are rolling off the counter at KMart, whose employees 15years ago thought Americano was Italian for Yank.

I could go on, please, somebody stop me, the food geek in me is dying to get out.

These all make a very relevant impact at roughly the time (1980's) that N. America sees massive growth, a boom in technology and a newfound wealth that chases the middle class into the pursuit of luxury as they can afford it. Namely, the daily consumption of something slightly better, slightly richer, slightly more expensive. Hey, those bre-x shares keep going up!

What will be interesting to see, is what starts happening if we get poorer, do we cast these petty luxuries aside? Or do our palates reign supreme now that we've had a taste. Will we simply demand that McGavin's produce a cheap, accesible fig loaf, Timmy ho's will begin it's soy swiss water program and Molson's (hey, they've already done this!) will throw some caramel into Canadian and call it Rickard's Red, a proprietary ""microbrew"" that sits on the shelf beside the Lucky Lager.

Or, as some suggest, will the divide between the taste/can't taste grow ever bigger? Will Timmy Ho's coffee reign the niche supreme of the world most tasteless coffee to a market of people who refuse to accept flavour in their morning hot beverage?

Big Questions. . .

I told you to stop me.

[twodogs]

Where is Malcolm Gladwell when you need him? (author of "The Tipping Point" and "Blink")

[ssherwood]

Ha. Finished the tipping point last year. That's probably where all this verbal diarrhea came from. Great book. I reference it often.

[jamiemaw]

This is a really interesting subject--the culinary "tipping point".

My theory, for some time, has been that the most significant point in modern North American culinary history was that moment when Westerners decided it was alright--even desirable--to eat sushi.  That barrier-crossing raised all boats for all chefs of every stripe. Suddenly it was permissable to serve mackerel, octopus, fish roes, sardines and other traditional European seafood that were once largely shunned. What chefs found to be acceptable quality in seafood lept--as there was always a Japanese restaurant willing to pay for the good stuff (hence creating reliable demand for more variety and better quality). And once the bone-deep aversion to eating raw fish disappeared, other barriers fell as well. The dining public became more daring and willing to experiment.

←

Yes indeed. And perhaps equally interesting is what followed, Anthony. Once the ‘sushi barrier’ had been crossed, the notion of product locality (and seasonality) came to the fore. Suddenly it became not just permissible but fashionable to support local, sustainable products. Here, that meant that long-distance ahi and Chilean sea bass were replaced on restaurant menus with items from the local fishery, in this case albacore and sablefish. The fact that they were superior products didn’t hurt either, ahi being the poor man’s sushi and all. After all, is there any greater culinary oxymoron than ‘sushi-grade ahi’? Where would that be—Bulgaria?

Even centres with little culinary provenance found a way back to their backyard larder. Even Las Vegas wasn’t safe and now extols its culinary past in such items as artisanal meat leathers, grass-finished prime rib and celebrity busboys.

But I digress. Another universal tipping point arrived long before the idea of locality. And that, I suppose, occurred in the 70s, when many European and Asian cuisines that had been profoundly North Americanized, also revisited their roots, at least on this continent.

Take Italian, please. What were once red sauce joints with raffia-wrapped Chianti bottles and Alitalia posters morphed into Brunello-fuelled, terra cotta skived faux-Tuscan temples of the ‘New Authenticity’. And in time, the Ian Holm character in ‘Big Night’ became Stanley Tucci, albeit too late for the brothers and Louis Prima. I had to go all the way to Ralph's in Philadelphia to get consistently abusive waiters and a menu with the word 'Mama's' on it.

Vancouver Posted Yesterday, 05:06 PM

  I think we also have to add the return of Hong Kong to China, and the increased immigration that came as a result of that in the mid 90's to the list. No?

Absolutely. So the New Authenticity seemingly happened with all of the cuisines that had been imported to this continent. To the point where it’s now more difficult to find honest spaghetti and meatballs or gummable sweet and sour pork than it is organic free-range funghi and Edgar Allen Pho.

Edited February 20, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[jamiemaw]

Where is Malcolm Gladwell when you need him? (author of "The Tipping Point" and "Blink")

←

Rebranding yet another human trait. The tipping point = what our parents call critical mass.

[*Deborah*]

Where is Malcolm Gladwell when you need him? (author of "The Tipping Point" and "Blink")

←

Rebranding yet another human trait. The tipping point = what our parents call critical mass.

←

Oh, I thought it was when the cow got fat enough to fall over by itself.

Thanks, Jamie!

[jamiemaw]

Where is Malcolm Gladwell when you need him? (author of "The Tipping Point" and "Blink")

←

Rebranding yet another human trait. The tipping point = what our parents call critical mass.

←

Oh, I thought it was when the cow got fat enough to fall over by itself.

Thanks, Jamie!

←

Hmmm, Deborah. Maybe that's Critical Mess--leading to the other kind of Mad Cow.

[shelora]

"What do you thing were the important benchmark points in our culinary past that pushed us so far forward?"

Looking at the upcoming Vancouver wine festival program, I saw Richard Carras' name as one of the featured presenters.

Richard Carras was integral, in my mind, for getting the idea of selling wine by the glass accepted by the powers that be. One of the ways he did this was to open the now defunct Grapevine Restaurant on 4th Avenue.

The Grapevine was a radical concept, a place you could go and sit at the bar and choose from a vast (not really vast by today's standards) array of wines by the glass.

S.

[barolo]

This topic deserves more thought, but here's some ideas from my admittedly narrow little part of the world

- the opening of the Granville Island Public Market with La Baguette and Granville Island Brewing. It has had its ups and downs, but the Island has been an important part of my culinary life in Vancouver from the beginning.

- Umberto Menghi - redefined Italian food, trained a whole lot of people who are still in the business now

- Bishop's seemed to start the whole locally sourced, high end neighbourhood restaurant concept

- Expo '86 brought a whole lot of new, diverse restaurants, and people, to Vancouver. It was the starting point for Yaletown and the expansion/improvement of the livable downtown core which is an important factor in our vibrant restaurant scene.

- increase in Asian immigration - already mentioned.

- Starbucks - already mentioned

- The Keg - already mentioned

- the Lazy Gourmet - my first exposure to upscale takeout.

- the Free Trade Agreement transformed the BC wine industry

- James Barber - Ginger Tea Makes Friends.

[jamiemaw]

This topic deserves more thought, but here's some ideas from my admittedly narrow little part of the world

- the opening of the Granville Island Public Market with La Baguette and Granville Island Brewing. It has had its ups and downs, but the Island has been an important part of my culinary life in Vancouver from the beginning.

- Umberto Menghi - redefined Italian food, trained a whole lot of people who are still in the business now

-   Bishop's seemed to start the whole locally sourced, high end neighbourhood restaurant concept

- Expo '86 brought a whole lot of new, diverse restaurants, and people, to Vancouver.  It was the starting point for Yaletown and the expansion/improvement of the livable downtown core which is an important factor in our vibrant restaurant scene.

- increase in Asian immigration - already mentioned.

- Starbucks - already mentioned

- The Keg - already mentioned

- the Lazy Gourmet - my first exposure to upscale takeout.

- the Free Trade Agreement transformed the BC wine industry

- James Barber - Ginger Tea Makes Friends.

←

Terrific points Barolo.

To them I would add the change, after a concerted struggle led by Geoffrey Howes of the BC Restaurant and Food Service Association, to the province's liquor legislation. That allowed for "food primary" licensees (i.e restaurants) to serve a glass of wine without the patron having the "intention to eat". Voila--it immediately led to the installation of bars and lounge areas within restaurants (Fiction et al), and the establishment od stand-alone wine bars such as Vintropolis and Waterside.

The change to the legislation has prompted liquor, wine and beer sales growth for many restaurants, but, lo and behold, the sky didn't fall in for pubs and hotel bars, although it has made them pay more attention to their food programs--now consumers can choose if they want to eat in a bar or drink in a restaurant. Remarkably grown up.

Edited February 21, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Keith Talent]

Two questions; When roughly was the turning point from greasy backwater to culinary hotspot and have we really turned a corner, or are we all so engrossed in our own food-centric existance, we perceive the city differently than it really is?

[dodger]

Good points barolo...

Your reference to James Barber's 'Ginger Tea...' brought a smile to my face as a copy of that same book popped up in a box of old books just 3 or 4 weeks ago!. Anyone who hasn't seen it...search it out. A classic. (in a Barber type of way)

A few things popped into my mind when this thread first started. (places, people, etc that made a difference on our local dining scene) It seems that one of the things that raised the awareness of diners was accessibility to finer dining in the 'burbs'.

1) Bruno Marti brought fine cuisine to the burbs and thus enticed all those on the 'other' side of the tunnel to venture out seeking dining adventures.

2) Steveston Seafood House raised the bar for ambiance and cuisine again in the burbs.

I haven't been since the mid eighties though and have heard it has lost it's charm (?) Anyone know??

3) I agree with Neil in regards to Tidball (The Keg & McDonalds) Both in the burbs again! (Richmond and N. Vancouver respectively)

As well there was a real shift in the mid-eighties towards a more guest centred experience. That is, more emphasis was placed on the guest (or customer service) than there had been in the past, even in your more Mom & Pop eateries. As guests became more accustomed to better service and a varied dining experience, proprietors could experiment more and deliver new experiences. This combined with some of the already mentioned points in this thread ( global economy, changing racial demographics, etc) may have pushed us to where we are now. I for one am glad it did!

Perhaps (and this is only a guess) one of the tipping points was the level of service and type of cuisine found outside of 'Downtown' brought a level of dining TO the guest, rather than the guest having to seek it out thus changing attitudes all 'round.

Just my two cents....

John

[jamiemaw]

Two questions; When roughly was the turning point from greasy backwater to culinary hotspot and have we really turned a corner, or are we all so engrossed in our own food-centric existance, we perceive the city differently than it really is?

←

I think that the breakthrough occurred in the 90’s, Keith. The 1890’s that is. But it would be almost a century before we would find our roots again.

It is a modern conceit to think that good food—in profusion and diversity—is a recent invention in Vancouver. Look back 110 years to Christmas dinner, 1889, when the Leland Hotel served up a long menu comprising mainly local ingredients. The highlights from a bending board: “Oyster and Clear Ox Tail Soups; Gollops of Salmon, Sauce Epicereau; No. 1 Mackerel; Stewed Duckling with Green Peas; Boned Turkey with Oysters; Haunch of Venison, Red Currant Jelly; Sucking Pig, Apple Sauce; Lobster Salad.”

Almost 20 desserts followed, including “Cocoanut Pie”, not seen again until 1958, and then only in the frozen food section. The wine list was legion—on offer were Champagnes, superior clarets and first growth Burgundies, ales local and long distance, and a selection of fino sherries and Sauternes. All of the wines were made available by the glass. Looking back, the menus look much less anachronistic—crowded as they were with fresh, local ingredients cooked in season—than the heavy Victorian fashion of the people who were eating from them.

A century ago, Vancouver was peppered with oyster bars, Chinese restaurants, a vegetarian café or two, and many fine eating and drinking rooms. At The Café on Cordova Street, oysters were offered 14 ways: on ice with mignonette, under cheese, chopped spinach or cress, or lying in sin with freshly whipped hollandaise sauce. The drinkingman’s favourite—an iron pan of angels on horseback—were local oysters wrapped in a saddle of streaky bacon with a dot of Colman’s hot mustard. They would be dispatched with a cool pint of Stanley Park Brewery’s nutty-sweet pale ale.

At the nearby Mizony’s Restaurant, oysters came in just eight variations, but also featured were “Brains in every Style.” At the Hotel Vancouver, customers could take their oysters with a selection from seven Champagnes, perhaps Veuve Clicqout, $4 a bottle, iced.

The abundance of fowl and game and strong drink appalled a certain group of diners. Vegetarianism, spurred by moral and dietetic concern, was a growing international phenomenon. By 1907, the Pure Food Vegetarian Café on Hastings Street was quoting Plutarch on the cover of its menu, “Does it not shame you to mingle blood and murder with nature’s beneficient fruits? Other carnivores you call savage. . .and yet for them murder is the only means of sustenance, whereas to you it is a superfluous luxury and crime.” The menu is a trove of Edwardian emancipation: the inside cover lists dietetic suggestions, and preaches “good” combinations centred around grains and the avoidance of sugar. A directory of other like-minded vegetarian restaurants in Canada and the U.S. is also featured. The 35 cent dinner featured celery soup, peanut sausage, bayo beans, stewed prunes and tea. Breakfast promised gluten omelets and granose biscuits, lunch, nut butter, protose or date sandwiches.

The second breakthrough wouldn’t occur for nearly a century, when Vancouver chefs, in anticipating Expo 86 would revisit our local larder and harmonize imported technique with indigenous ingredients. In between would fall 90 odd years of draconian liquor legislation, convenience foods and imperious foreign chefs.

Welcome home.

[barolo]

Two questions; When roughly was the turning point from greasy backwater to culinary hotspot and have we really turned a corner, or are we all so engrossed in our own food-centric existance, we perceive the city differently than it really is?

←

Good question, I asked it - in a much less entertaining way - myself.

I think the mid-eighties was a turning point for the better, but that may just reflect my vintage.

Have we really turned a corner - I don't know. When I travelled to Margaret River in Western Australia in 1996 and 1998, I was blown away at how much better the food, wine, accommodations and arts and crafts were compared to what was available in BC. Margaret River is barely on the beaten path, a long way from anything and anyone except Perth, a city that is smaller than Vancouver, and yet they seem, to me anyway, to have accomplished more sooner.

[Daddy-A]

Two questions; When roughly was the turning point from greasy backwater to culinary hotspot and have we really turned a corner, or are we all so engrossed in our own food-centric existance, we perceive the city differently than it really is?

←

Good question, I asked it - in a much less entertaining way - myself.

I think the mid-eighties was a turning point for the better, but that may just reflect my vintage.

Have we really turned a corner - I don't know.

I think one "turns a corner" when one stops wondering if they have.

A.

[*Deborah*]

Two questions; When roughly was the turning point from greasy backwater to culinary hotspot and have we really turned a corner, or are we all so engrossed in our own food-centric existance, we perceive the city differently than it really is?

←

Good question, I asked it - in a much less entertaining way - myself.

I think the mid-eighties was a turning point for the better, but that may just reflect my vintage.

Have we really turned a corner - I don't know.

I think one "turns a corner" when one stops wondering if they have.

A.

←

Ah, that will be the day Vancouver stops hyping itself as a "world-class" city.

(Other cities presumably aren't sophisticated enough to actually be part of the world?)

[jamiemaw]

*Deborah*,Feb 21 2005, 03:33 PM]

Ah, that will be the day Vancouver stops hyping itself as a "world-class" city.

I remember that term being used in the run-up to Expo, Deborah, in all the soul-searching articles that asked if we were worthy. It is Trumpian in its vulgarity of course, and exposes an insecurity as deep as that of a pimply-faced teen at the prom.

But being Canadian, validation of the quality of our culinary culture would arrive from elsewhere. One very recent example was what happened last night--the city wide pride taken here and on the cover of the province's largest newspaper about Rob Feenie's victory. While I doubt very much that the story would have made the front page of The Philadelphia Inquirer if Morimoto had won, certainly it befalls us, as a smaller centre, to take some pride in a local hero.

Without that requirement for external validation, I daresay that Pamela Anderson would be a lifeguard at Kits Beach.

We have moved on.

Edited February 21, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Keith Talent]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but what barolo says echos my experience too. Lets use any town in Spain as an example. Go into any bar, and ask a local which ham is the best. You will ineveitably start a fistfight among the patrons when the differences of opinion are aired. They'll all inevitably have varying opinions, they inevitably not agree with each other.

Now as a control group, go into any Cactus Club here in Vancouver and ask which local oyster is best. Or which species of Salmon. Or which is better, sablefish or black cod, double bonus points if ANYONE even picks up your attempted deceipt. I'll tell you right now, very very few people will have the basic food literacy to even attempt to answer the above question, never mind offer and intelligent reasoned response. The average Vancouverite's food and beverage interest extends no farther than to answer the great Quiznos vs. Subway debate.

I think that just because a few progressive local visionaries can see the corner coming it doesn't mean we've yetr turned it. Things are getting better, but we're still a looooooonnnggg way from having a ingrained food culture in this town.

All that aside, one recent incident made me realize that we are well on the road to being a food culture. It seems insignificant on the surface, but a deeper examination says some pretty good things about Vancouver.

I was at a golf tournement with the requisite banquet afterwards. The appetizer course was sushi cooked, err I mean prepared by the good people from Octopus Garden in Kits. Not only did the golfers, not known as bastions of the avante garde devour the sashimi and rave about the eel, but the interesting thing happened during the main course. While plates were set in front of the diners, pretty much everyone in the room kept eating with chopsticks. I found this fascinating. The entree was barbecued chicken or something I forget, it wasn't asian, but people already had their chopsticks in their hands, and seemed to be entirely comfortable continuing with them. I can't imagine a crowd of middle aged white guys anywhere else in the world doing that. The thing I found interesting is it was not remarkable, no one commented on it, no one seemed to notice. It was just an interesting picture of where we are as a city in 2004.