Some stock questions

[chefzadi]

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

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It depends entirely upon their usage, IMHO. Raw Bones stock would be a better base stock for things like risotto, where I would want OTHER flavors to be brought forward (such as mushrooms or asparagus) but a Roast Bone stock would be preferable in a soup. It doesn't mean that one is better than another, just that there are ultimately going to be different uses depending on how the stock was originally made.

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Forgive a stupid question, but where do you get the roasted chicken bones? I mean, are roasted bones from roasted chickens, or are they from a deboned chicken and then roasted with aromatics? If I have 2 chickens and I want a light stock and a darker chicken stock, would I roast one and boil the other? then boil the bones of the roastd chicken and then reduce both? Also curious about the beef stocks. I've read the lesson. I think I'm having logistics problems. thanks

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It comes from roasting raw bones, carcasses.

Light stock whether it's chicken, beef or veal= no roasting of the bones

Brown stock= roasted bones.

If you want to make a light chicken stock for the homecook you can use the whole chicken.

If you want a brown chicken, veal or beef stock brown the bones, carcass.

No such thing as a stupid question (well most of the time ) Stupid answers are found in abdundance though.

[highchef]

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

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It depends entirely upon their usage, IMHO. Raw Bones stock would be a better base stock for things like risotto, where I would want OTHER flavors to be brought forward (such as mushrooms or asparagus) but a Roast Bone stock would be preferable in a soup. It doesn't mean that one is better than another, just that there are ultimately going to be different uses depending on how the stock was originally made.

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Forgive a stupid question, but where do you get the roasted chicken bones? I mean, are roasted bones from roasted chickens, or are they from a deboned chicken and then roasted with aromatics? If I have 2 chickens and I want a light stock and a darker chicken stock, would I roast one and boil the other? then boil the bones of the roastd chicken and then reduce both? Also curious about the beef stocks. I've read the lesson. I think I'm having logistics problems. thanks

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It comes from roasting raw bones, carcasses.

Light stock whether it's chicken, beef or veal= no roasting of the bones

Brown stock= roasted bones.

If you want to make a light chicken stock for the homecook you can use the whole chicken.

If you want a brown chicken, veal or beef stock brown the bones, carcass.

No such thing as a stupid question (well most of the time ) Stupid answers are found in abdundance though.

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Thanks. So if I roast a whole chicken I can still use the carcass (like I do turkey for gumbo) for what, a medium stock?

It's kind of hard to debone a chicken leg/thigh just so you can roast the bones for a stock; what do you end up with? raw shredded dark chicken meat. I'm sure you can find a use for it, though, why bother going to that trouble unless that's what you wanted? If I have 2 chickens with breast removed (for whatever use later) and I cut wings and legs off of them and use them for white stock, I could then roast the remainder of the carcass for brown stock. Otherwise the bones I roast will have been cooked twice. In a brown beef stock you roast the meat on the rib shanks don't you? It probably doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you strain well several times and don't let the stock boil, but I was wondering if there was a method to the madness or if it was more laiz'faire (forgive the spelling, it's more a verbal expression around here). Thank you for your patience.

[chefzadi]

I suppose in theory you could use the bones from a roast chicken to make stock, but there wouldn't be much flavor. There is no such thing as a medium stock, unless you want to make one up at home and call it that.

If you practice your knife skills you should be able to cleanly debone anything with a clean finished product. If you don't have the knife skills and don't care to or can't learn and are bothered by and at a a loss to do with the shreds of meat you are left with, than I'd say don't do it. Just use the carcass or the whole chicken like a lot of home cooks do.

You start with raw bones, not bones from already cooked chicken.

As regards to the brown stock, I think that the egullet culinary institute has the answers you are looking for. It is more than sufficient for the home cook.

I think the tutorial is really worth a read for you. Not that I don't want to answer your question here. But ecgi is worth alook.

[highchef]

I suppose in theory you could use the bones from a roast chicken to make stock, but there wouldn't be much flavor. There is no such thing as a medium stock, unless you want to make one up at home and call it that.

If you practice your knife skills you should be able to cleanly debone anything with a clean finished product. If you don't have the knife skills and don't care to or can't learn and are bothered by and at a a loss to do with the shreds of meat you are left with, than I'd say don't do it. Just use the carcass or the whole chicken like a lot of home cooks do.

You start with raw bones, not bones from already cooked chicken.

As regards to the brown stock, I think that the egullet culinary institute has the answers you are looking for. It is more than sufficient for the home cook.

I think the tutorial is really worth a read for you. Not that I don't want to answer your question here. But ecgi is worth  alook.

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I have read it, but the roasted chicken bone question I either missed the answer or something. I've printed it to review tonight as I'm going to make stock tomorrow, and hopefully still be able to do the lesson on braising. I could get the meat off, I was just trying to figure out a good methodology for using all parts to an optimum degree. Thanks.

[chefzadi]

Okay. You roast the bones, raw bones in the oven for browning for a brown chicken stock.

You don't use the bones from an already cooked roast chicken to make stock.

Keep us up to date about your progress.

[Pam R]

[

I have read it, but the roasted chicken bone question I either missed the answer or something. I've printed it to review tonight as I'm going to make stock tomorrow, and hopefully still be able to do the lesson on braising. I could get the meat off, I was just trying to figure out a good methodology for using all parts to an optimum degree. Thanks.

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chicken bones can be bought - and they are usually very cheap. What do you think the butchers do with the bones when they sell boneless breasts or thighs?

[highchef]

Okay. You roast the bones, raw bones in the oven for browning for a brown chicken stock.

You don't use the bones from an already cooked roast chicken to make stock.

Keep us up to date about your progress. 

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You did clarify that for me chef, and I greatly appreciate it. I shall let you know how I do. The white stock is known. Now to the unknown. thanks

[edsel]

I've recently come to appreciate the difference between stock (fond) - prepared from bones - and jus - prepared from meat. They're both of great utility, but they're not the same thing. Stock (fond) is literally the "foundation" of many sauces. Jus is a more modern development (as I understand it, at least), and provides a more direct injection of flavor of whatever meat it's derived from.

There's a discussion of Ducasse' approach to jus in Moby's thread on the new English edition of the Grand Livre. I've been using the equivalent recipe from the Spoon cook book, and have found it to be highly valuable. It flies in the face of much that I had previously understood as "standard practice", but the results speak for themselves.

[chefzadi]

Jus isn't a modern development. Jus traditionally referred to pan juices from roasted meats and chicken. Beef bouillon and beef consomme are made from the meat. The contemporary versions of jus (well I've seen parsley jus on menus ). But the type of jus that Ducasse is doing is a new name for a sauce making method that isn't entirely new. Maybe he's the first to make it public.

[edsel]

Heh, I'm not suggesting that "jus" is a new concept, only that Ducasse' technique is new to me. His approach of multiple quick reductions is very different from any traditional stock-making technique known to me - I'm used to the Escoffier / Julia Child / whatever tradition of simmering bones / carcasses with aromatics. Ducasse' jus recipe is a revelation to me (but maybe not to you).

[chefzadi]

Yes it is not knew to me. But this is what I appreciate about egullet the most. The different levels of experience and the clear expression that experience or expertise for that matter doesn't necessarily equate with passion for food or learning. I apologize if I sounded dismissive in any way.

[edsel]

No offense taken, I assure you! I too appreciate the diversity of experiences here.

[rascal]

My, quite the responses! Thanks to everyone for participating. I think the next time I'm going to try leaving the skin in for a bit longer. I'm not too concerned with clarity and could really use more gelling power. I suppose if I was shooting for a consomme-like clarity I would lose the skin entirely- although the result from this most recent batch was VERY clear, even with 40 minutes of skin-time.

Adding my two cents on the roasted carcass question- this used to be my primary method... roast a chicken for dinner and make stock afterwards... but I've found using whole chickens (69 cents a pound at costco) to make a HUGE difference in flavor, plus I don't have to keep stacks of carcasses around until I have enough for a big pot of stock.

[Pam R]

I'm not too concerned with clarity and could really use more gelling power.  I suppose if I was shooting for a consomme-like clarity I would lose the skin entirely- although the result from this most recent batch was VERY clear, even with 40 minutes of skin-time.

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Clarity lies in the shamming (skimming). Just make sure to skim off all the foam and scum, and you should have a clear soup - with as much skin in the soup as you want.

[rascal]

Thinking about taking a different tack now... I just rendered a big pile o chicken skin into schmaltz this weekend and after separating the remaining water phase was QUITE jelled. Maybe I'll reserve this chicken jello and add it to the stock when I need significantly more body.

I'm still a little baffled as to why every cooking tome I've ever said says that gelatin comes from bones and feet, while I've observed several times now that the skin has a significant quantity of gelling power.

[Pam R]

... I just rendered a big pile o chicken skin into schmaltz this weekend and after

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what did you do with the skin after? Make greebins?

[fifi]

I just read through this thread and found the part about not using roasted chickens pretty interesting. I actually make "stock," or whatever, from roasted chickens all the time.

Here is the scene: Roast chicken. Eat. Dump all leftovers, bones, meat that clings to the bones, skin, into a pot and make a "stock," or whatever. That, along with the leftover meat makes one heck of a pot of chicken and dumplings.

There is also a long standing tradition in Louisiana. The day after Thanksgiving, turkey carcasses are collected, turned into "stock," or whatever, and made into Turkey Bone Gumbo.

[touaregsand]

I just read through this thread and found the part about not using roasted chickens pretty interesting. I actually make "stock," or whatever, from roasted chickens all the time.

Here is the scene: Roast chicken. Eat. Dump all leftovers, bones, meat that clings to the bones, skin, into a pot and make a "stock," or whatever. That, along with the leftover meat makes one heck of a pot of chicken and dumplings.

There is also a long standing tradition in Louisiana. The day after Thanksgiving, turkey carcasses are collected, turned into "stock," or whatever, and made into Turkey Bone Gumbo.

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Not using roasted chicken for stock was applied to classic French stocks. At home I suppose the range is vast.

[rascal]

I have for sure used roasted chicken carcasses in the past, and turkey stock turned into turkey pot pie is a long running tradition in my family.

However for stock used for sauces and/or put into dishes, using non-roasted bones and meat gives a much cleaner taste. I only started doing this recently and it is a very nice improvement. Usually if I want the richer, darker flavor I'll use beef stock.

[scott123]

Thinking about taking a different tack now... I just rendered a big pile o chicken skin into schmaltz this weekend and after separating the remaining water phase was QUITE jelled.  Maybe I'll reserve this chicken jello and add it to the stock when I need significantly more body.

I'm still a little baffled as to why every cooking tome I've ever said says that gelatin comes from bones and feet, while I've observed several times now that the skin has a significant quantity of gelling power.

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Here here! I've been paying very close attention to the amount of fond produced from roasting chicken wings. Pound for pound, it get 2-3 times the output from wings that I get from a whole chicken. And I know it's not the bones in the wings that's producing the gold.

Chicken skin has the greatest concentration, per weight, of both the flavor and body providing elements of stock. I'll bet my knives on it.

Fifi, you lose some body/flavor to the fond/gravy of roasted poultry and the final color is not as white as it could have been if you had started with a raw bird, but roasted poultry carcasses make great stock.

[fifi]

. . . . .

Fifi, you lose some body/flavor to the fond/gravy of roasted poultry and the final color is not as white as it could have been if you had started with a raw bird, but roasted poultry carcasses make great stock.

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True. But it works for things like dumplings and gumbos. Using previously roasted bird is just a way of using something that would otherwise be thrown away. Most of my chicken stock is actually made using the eGCI method, the chicken depending upon what is on sale. A lot of times, the whole bird is the way to go. I then rob some breast and thigh meat to use for other things, like in the course.

I guess I have never been after a "white" broth. I really don't like clear soups or light flavors. I have had some soups in very high end restaurants where I am sure the chef went to great pains to make that crystal clear broth. I taste it and go . . . eh!

[Shalmanese]

I imagine the rather obvious reason why roast chickens are not a part of the standard french technique is simply because french restaurants don't have an easy source of roast chicken carcasses, at least ones that haven't been knawed on by customers.

[highchef]

I imagine the rather obvious reason why roast chickens are not a part of the standard french technique is simply because french restaurants don't have an easy source of roast chicken carcasses, at least ones that haven't been knawed on by customers.

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good point, and rest assured that I don't use knawed turkey bones...just the carcass when I make the after holiday gumbo mentioned above. Since I do the cooking and the cleaning, I know what was left on the platter and what came off a plate. Honestly, I've never had turkey gumbo made any other way. That's what I was getting too up thread, there is a logical reason for doing what you do and the resturant is always deboning for the raw meat then using the bones, where most home cooks would probably at most debone the breast for a recipe. A resturant would have ample supply of the raw bones available, but the home cook would have to do the added step unless he/she bought them. I'll ask about buying chicken bones from my local supermarket, but I'll bet the kid looks at me like I'm from another planet...I swear most cuts must come packaged already, they really don't know how to cut anything for me except tri-tips...guess I got lucky!

[rascal]

Here here! I've been paying very close attention to the amount of fond produced from roasting chicken wings. Pound for pound, it get 2-3 times the output from wings that I get from a whole chicken.  And I know it's not the bones in the wings that's producing the gold.

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Sounds great. I've been making a LOT of buffalo wings recently and saving the wing tip for the next batch of stock. I figure a whole chicken or two plus a couple of pounds of wing tips should turn out a great stock.

[fifi]

highchef . . . My big Asian market regularly sells raw chicken bones, possibly from the deboning operation for chicken breasts etc. (They have a real live butcher shop.) They sell the stuff for about 50 cents per pound and it makes great chicken stock, though I usually add some leg parts.

One odd thing that has happened to me . . . One batch of chicken stock made with chicken parts from this Asian market, the fat would not harden. And I keep my fridge really cold. Are the chickens fed differently? Polyunsaturated chickens?