NY restaurant industry

[John Whiting]

Today's NYT. This is New York, but it could be almost anywhere.

A new study of New York City's restaurant industry has found that at least 36 percent of its workers are illegal immigrants, that 59 percent of restaurant workers surveyed reported overtime violations, and that 73 percent said they had no health insurance.

No distinction in the article between fine dining and fast food.

[chefdg]

That's the industry that we love so well. Not to mention the drug addicts, alchoholics, and prostitutes.

[reachej]

There certainly are better jobs you can have if you are interested primarily in pay, benefits and hours. Then again, I can't imagine a good job that was taken primarily for those reasons. Better if your job is what you like to do anyway.

[Rebel Rose]

I have what may be an absurd question, but I'm truly curious. I have heard that these jobs, even for excellent line cooks, are horrendously underpaid, with lots of turnover. How does that reconcile with the few rabid cooks/chefs that have posted comments here like "How dare you? You'll never get a job in this town again?"

[Laurie Woolever]

I just (today) came from a meeting hosted by the Restaurant Opportunities Center of New York in which they distributed copies of, and discussed the results of, a study of working conditions for restaurant employees in New York City. Their basic theses are: the industry is thriving, even in the face of 9/11; and, workers, especially immigrant workers and workers of color are far too often deprived of deserved overtime pay, denied promotions based on race or ethnicity, denied health insurance or even basic health and safety training on the job. The executive director was careful to point out that the organization does not intend to "go after" restaurrateurs or even unionize workers, but to push for legislative reform and enforcement that will combat the 'culture of non-compliance' so common in NYC restaurants.

They also acknowledge that they are only at the beginning of a very long process, and they express a sincere desire to have an open dialogue between workers and owners.

Check them out:

www.rocny.org

[FaustianBargain]

The executive director was careful to point out that the organization does not intend to "go after" restaurrateurs or even unionize workers, but to push for legislative reform and enforcement that will combat the 'culture of non-compliance' so common in NYC restaurants.

Unionised cooks. What an intriguing concept. Something that will invite a lot of resistance, I imagine?

Opinions/Comments?

[John Whiting]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints, which I would expect to be terrible? With so many upmarket establishments now boasting of their local/seasonal/organic ingredients, are there any who make a point of fair trading for their supplies and fair paying of their employees? Any at all? I would think that, ethics aside, it would make a good sales gimmick.

[Bux]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience. For whatever it is worth, many take a lesser salalry to work in a special restaurant for a year of two while they're still learning the trade.

[John Whiting]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience. For whatever it is worth, many take a lesser salalry to work in a special restaurant for a year of two while they're still learning the trade.

←

My question wasn't "why" but "whether". I'm asking, not just about ambitious chefs on the way up, but also those who are working more or less at the level at which they expect to continue.

Put it another way: are there restaurants which publicly pride themselves on the care they take with their suppliers and their staff as well as with their ingredients?

[bourdain]

I'm gratified to see it acknowledged that "AT LEAST" 36% of NY restaurant workers are illegal immigrants. I think this is likely a conservative figure. It is common knowledge that the entire NY industry would collapse overnight if every Mexican and Ecuadoran (for instance) decided to stay home. (See film: "A Day Without A Mexican") As some readers here will know, it's one of the things that sickens me most about the Beard House and the faux-adulatory coverage of the business in general: that WHO is cooking, REALLY doing the cooking is so blithely overlooked--though it is, of course, right in front of our eyes. I'm curious to know the number of NY restaurant workers who USED TO BE illegal immigrants--as it is one of the few, real, encouraging aspects of the business as I've seen it. The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

Unions? I'm against. They have--unfortunately--often institutionalized mediocrity--and if anything, exclude the more talented and motivated in favor of the tenured-but-lame-o.

Latinos who slip into this country undetected, do the hard work of cooking in our restaurants, work their way up the line, rent and buy homes, pay taxes, eventually seek citizenship or legal status should be celebrated as perhaps the best example of the original American dream. What most of us born here sadly see as a birthright, they see as a very real--and attainable--ideal. Government policy, the restaurant industry, and the "foodie press" should do everything they can to acknowledge this--and to encourage it.

Rarest Species in New York: An American-born dishwasher.

That says it all. Who makes the best cooks? Ex-dishwashers.

[culinary bear]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire). I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

Pay, from what I've heard and read, is worse over here than in the US - granted, the American dollar is very cheap compared to sterling at the moment, but a qualified chef de partie (what would be regarded as a competent chef running a section in the kitchen) could expect to make no more than 20k in london, and realistically 4-6k less than that in the rest of the country. At exchange rates of a couple of years ago, that works out at about US$32k in london, US$25 outside.

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

[FaustianBargain]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

"Strange"?

Pay, from what I've heard and read, is worse over here than in the US - granted, the American dollar is very cheap compared to sterling at the moment, but a qualified chef de partie (what would be regarded as a competent chef running a section in the kitchen) could expect to make no more than 20k in london, and realistically 4-6k less than that in the rest of the country.  At exchange rates of a couple of years ago, that works out at about US$32k in london, US$25 outside.

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

Salary should not be viewed as a numerical figure in either currency. Rather, it should be measured in terms of *what* it can buy. My 2 c/p.

Edited January 26, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[FaustianBargain]

The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

This is something that has been rankling me for a while. If a restaurant job is about brute endurance and energy that never runs out, what *are* they teaching kids in catering/hospitality schools? Why not shut them all down? Obviously, they have no skillset that is unique or in demand.

Unions? I'm against. They have--unfortunately--often institutionalized mediocrity--and if anything, exclude the more talented and motivated in favor of the tenured-but-lame-o.

You are probably right. Playing devil's advocate, are there any arguments you can think of in its favour?

And are you telling me that restaurant kitchen staff have no healthcare/insurance? What do illegal immigrants do when they fall ill?

[FaustianBargain]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience. For whatever it is worth, many take a lesser salalry to work in a special restaurant for a year of two while they're still learning the trade.

←

My question wasn't "why" but "whether". I'm asking, not just about ambitious chefs on the way up, but also those who are working more or less at the level at which they expect to continue.

Put it another way: are there restaurants which publicly pride themselves on the care they take with their suppliers and their staff as well as with their ingredients?

←

McD in London = 5.xx/hour

Intercontinental(anecdotally) hotel part time(no benefits) wages for commis = 9.xx/hour

edited to add: here ya go...

Edited January 26, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[chefzadi]

I work all over France working my way up the line. The pay was awful, horrible. I worked in London as a Chef de Partie, but that was years ago. The pay was better than France. Taking into consideration the rate of inflation I say it was about what culinary bear descirbes. When I first came to America I initially had to take a lower positon on the line to get my foot in the door. It was a French restaurant with highly regarded LA chef (I could cook circles around that guy and he knew it). My pay was just above minimum wage. I took another job as a Sous Chef in another French owned, French restaurant. $2,000.00 a month. As it turns out it's fairly common practice amongst French restaurant owners in LA to hire eager, fresh faced straight off the plane French chefs/cooks and pay them well below industry standards. A couple of months ago I met the new chef of a venerable French restaurant in LA. He had been in America for only a month. Another French chef and I looked at him and said the same thing at the same time "there gonna kill him." Another place I was Chef de Cuisine at, this time the owner was not French. He offered to import a Sous Chef from France for me. Even he knew he could get away with paying MUCH less for an import.

The pay in Seoul PHENOMENAL.

[chefzadi]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience. For whatever it is worth, many take a lesser salalry to work in a special restaurant for a year of two while they're still learning the trade.

←

I did this. It's common practice in France. There is a famous American chef who says he

spent a year or something like that working in France at Michelin starred restaurants. My educated guess is that HE had to pay THEM for the privilege. No doubt in my mind though that he learned ALOT.

[chefzadi]

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience. For whatever it is worth, many take a lesser salalry to work in a special restaurant for a year of two while they're still learning the trade.

←

My question wasn't "why" but "whether". I'm asking, not just about ambitious chefs on the way up, but also those who are working more or less at the level at which they expect to continue.

Put it another way: are there restaurants which publicly pride themselves on the care they take with their suppliers and their staff as well as with their ingredients?

←

In France there are no secrets amongst cooks/chefs in the kitchen. The mentoring system is firmly established at the higher level restaurants. The hierarchy is clear and it is also clear that the one immediately above each staff member is to teach the underling EVERYTHING he knows.

[FaustianBargain]

I did this. It's common practice in France. There is a famous American chef who says he

spent a year or something like that working in France at Michelin starred restaurants. My educated guess is that HE had to pay THEM for the privilege. No doubt in my mind though that he learned ALOT.

I believe that this is the practice at El Bulli. Of course, it came from someone who worked in Spain who was friends with someone whose friend knew someone staging at El Bulli. At least, for the first month, 'you pay them' and the next month, you pay them "50%" and at the end of the six months, you can get a full salary. The explanation was bizarre and narrated to me as I was being seduced internally by paracetemol, so I am not going to pretend to understand how it is all worked out.

My point is..it doesnt seem too unrealistic.

[chefzadi]

I did this. It's common practice in France. There is a famous American chef who says he

spent a year or something like that working in France at Michelin starred restaurants. My educated guess is that HE had to pay THEM for the privilege. No doubt in my mind though that he learned ALOT.

I believe that this is the practice at El Bulli. Of course, it came from someone who worked in Spain who was friends with someone whose friend knew someone staging at El Bulli. At least, for the first month, 'you pay them' and the next month, you pay them "50%" and at the end of the six months, you can get a full salary. The explanation was bizarre and narrated to me as I was being seduced internally by paracetemol, so I am not going to pretend to understand how it is all worked out.

My point is..it doesnt seem too unrealistic.

←

Sometimes the "rules" are different for foreigners. I was recruited from culinary school in Paris to work at a three star restaurant for free. No pay, but the staff meals were exceptional though.

[culinary bear]

Intercontinental(anecdotally) hotel part time(no benefits) wages for commis = 9.xx/hour

my f**king arse... Sorry, but no genuine commis I know comes even close to earning 400 gross in a week pro rata.

edited to add: here ya go...

←

that's fine if you want to be a manager. :) Where's the table for chefs?

Salary should not be viewed as a numerical figure in either currency. Rather, it should be measured in terms of *what* it can buy. My 2 c/p.

I have a resonable idea of what it buys in the the states, so I'd like to know the actual figures. Try going into the bank for a mortgage and explaining to your bank manager that you don't know your salary, but it'll buy you a case of Jack Daniels a week, and see how far you get.

If a restaurant job is about brute endurance and energy that never runs out, what *are* they teaching kids in catering/hospitality schools? Why not shut them all down? Obviously, they have no skillset that is unique or in demand.

f**k knows - most college students are woefully, pitifully underskilled and know sweet f**k all about anything of any consequence. Why teach them how to work out gross profit if they won't even encounter such things in the real world until 5 years down the line?

[John Whiting]

I'm gratified to see it acknowledged that "AT LEAST" 36% of NY restaurant workers are illegal immigrants. I think this is likely a conservative figure. It is common knowledge that the entire NY industry would collapse overnight if every Mexican and Ecuadoran (for instance) decided to stay home. (See film: "A Day Without A Mexican")

←

A recent NYT article noted that the US government are no longer producing detailed statistics on the agricultural labor force, namely because it is now so preponderantly composed of illegal immigrants as to be extremely embarrassing. It's ironic that in most countries anti-immigrant sentiment runs highest when the economy is most dependent on their ubiquitous cheap labor.

[Jonathan Day]

I wonder if there isn't a simple economic explanation of the way the industry works: this is a winner-take-all market, where a few restaurants and chefs at the very top collect most of the profits. A number of the creative industries follow a similar pattern -- aspiring actors, for example, will work for very small sums in order to "break in". Parents spend huge sums educating their children in order to get them into the "best" schools; the aspiring superchef who accepts a low wage in order to work in a top restaurant is effectively doing the same thing.

For a non-technical example of such markets in action, see this paper by Robert Frank, a distinguished economist at Cornell University.

[Tonyy13]

Rarest Species in New York: An American-born dishwasher.

That says it all. Who makes the best cooks? Ex-dishwashers.

That's funny... but true!! I had a dishwasher once who could cut the best herbs, that our best line cooks would ask him to do it for them!! He was dedicated to his job, not the industry, he showed up on time, did his work, and cared about the paycheck, not his own advancement in the business, which I think played a role. He was more focused on doing exactly what I said, rather than comgin up with a better way of doing something. The biggest thing that I see out of the students at the culinary school where I teach is that they want jobs where they get to come up with the specials and the soup of the day. The thing that they should be looking for is a job where they can learn to be a great follower, and then, they will be able to lead. That is what the culinary schools should be teaching, but the admissions departments need to be able to tell the kids that they will be chefs when they get out.

I'm very curious about something which can probably only be answered anecdotally: How do salaries/work conditions in the "best" restaurants compare with those in the worst fast food joints,

←

The former look better on your resume than the latter. It's also a different kind of learning experience.

←

I went to England voluntarily to work for free at one of Europe's best restaurants. I did not recieve a paycheck every month for the work that I did (8 am to at least 11 PM, as late as 2 am sometimes), however, the pay that I recieved came in the form of the best education that I could have gotten. I learned more in four months at Le Manoir than I did in 4 years of culinary school. I learned about the balance of dishes, the proper butchering techniques for fowl, game, and domestic animals, I learned about proper cooking and how to run a kitchen so that there are no loopholes. All this while I was the lowest person in the kitchen, a stagier, and at a time when I wasn't allowed to actually put heat to a single ingredient for two months (which was hard to swallow as a confident culinary school graduate... needless to say, the first thing that I did put heat to was bacon, to render it, and I burned in... DOH!!).

I think that there is something to be said about staging, and working for limited to no pay for a certain time. But I also think that there is a line where you can't ask your everyday line cooks, chef de parties, and so on, to live below the normal poverty line. I staged at Trotters, and was asked to be in at 9 am. When I got there, everythign was in full swing, for at least an hour I would guess, and we didn't leave that night until about 12 midnight, with only a quick break for staff meal. Now, yes, the food does require a lot of prep, and yes, the food was awesome, but when I was talking with some of the guys in the kitchen (while doing dishes, Trotter doesn't have pot washing dishwashers, it's the responsiblity of the line cooks to wash them, dry them, and polish the copper ones, EVERYNIGHT!!), their biggest complaint was that they worked their asses off, and that they worked all day and night, and that they were only paid about $85 a day (for a 5 day work week, he is closed two days)! Now, I might have gotten a bad batch of workers who were on their way out, or whatever. But to tell me that your everyday workers, not stagiers, not people within their first month of employment, are only getting paid $400 a week gross????? C'mon, that's just not right. I do feel as though there is a fine line, but in my opinion, that crosses it.

[Timh]

I'm gratified to see it acknowledged that "AT LEAST" 36% of NY restaurant workers are illegal immigrants. I think this is likely a conservative figure. It is common knowledge that the entire NY industry would collapse overnight if every Mexican and Ecuadoran (for instance) decided to stay home. (See film: "A Day Without A Mexican") As some readers here will know, it's one of the things that sickens me most about the Beard House and the faux-adulatory coverage of the business in general: that WHO is cooking, REALLY doing the cooking is so blithely overlooked--though it is, of course, right in front of our eyes.  I'm curious to know the number of NY restaurant workers who USED TO BE illegal immigrants--as it is one of the few, real, encouraging aspects of the business as I've seen it.  The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

Unions? I'm against. They have--unfortunately--often institutionalized mediocrity--and if anything, exclude the more talented and motivated in favor of the tenured-but-lame-o.

Latinos who slip into this country undetected, do the hard work of cooking in our restaurants, work their way up the line, rent and buy homes, pay taxes, eventually seek citizenship or legal status should be celebrated as perhaps the best example of the original American dream. What most of us born here sadly see as a birthright, they see as a very real--and attainable--ideal. Government policy, the restaurant industry, and the "foodie press" should do everything they can to acknowledge this--and to encourage it.

Rarest Species in New York: An American-born dishwasher.

That says it all. Who makes the best cooks? Ex-dishwashers.

←

Excellent post, spot on. My experience in Chicago with an LEY Brasserie, In my management training I was given spanish immersion tapes. A full third of the kitchen staff spoke no english, but were great workers. It was obvious they were preferred for the labor cost aspect, as the only "school boys(girls)" were management. As an interesting side note, during my years in New Orleans, there were practically no immigrant kitchens, just lots of students and locals.

Tim

[chopjwu12]

i think thats the funny thing about our industry. For the most part the better the restaurant the worse the pay. Its just because they can. You are dispensible because if you want to leave there is someone behind you ready to take that job. I really dont see anything wrong with it personally. In this stage in my life im not looking to get rich im looking for as much knowledge as i can obtain at a given place. Pay is a secondary thought. Hell i can go to tgi fridays and make almost double what ive been making anywhere and probably get health benefits. Something i haven't had for over a year and haven't had dentel for almost two. The only thing that really burns my nuts is how the front of the house works. There are exceptions to this rule like per se for example where the front of the house works extremely hard. But for the most part the front does about 1/3 as much work as the back and works about 1/2 the hours. But the front will make almost double and sometimes triple more then a cook. God that hurts to see sometimes.

The morel to this story is tip you cooks not your servers!!!!!