Asked to leave a restaurant!!!

[stellabella]

Okay, I know everyone will not agree with me, and I would like to hear some thoughts on this one.

I drove an hour this morning to meet two of my sisters for brunch in Atlanta at Thumbs Up Diner, one of these sorta funky heaps-on-the-food type places that serves coffee in big bowls, has been around forever, etc.

My one sister is in town for business so I pick her up and we go to the restaurant--the third sister is a bit late so we wait--she arrives and we are seated at 9:30 am.  It's a rainy dreary Saturday morning and this restaurant is busy but not full.  The three of us order entrees and coffee.  We eat.  We have another cup of coffee.  We finish.  The server brings the check.  We pay it [plus 20% tip].  The server starts clearing our table.  All three of us have waited tables--we get the message, but we've been there, done that, and we aren't quite ready to leave.  Another woman approaches our table and says, "Ladies, I don't mean to be rude, but if you aren't going to be spending any more money here this morning, then we need you to leave so that we can seat the people who are waiting."  It's 10:25.

I am not sure if this is one of those restuarants that prints a "rudeness" disclaimer on the back of the menu in fine print: "We reserve the right to refuse service to blahblahblah..."

Call me old-fashioned, but I think that was rude as hell.  There were a couple of parties waiting, but only a couple.  It was a rainy morning--my sisters and I, stunned and not particularly confrontational people, got up and left and stood on the sidewalk in the rain saying good-bye to each other.  Am I trying to elicit sympathy?  Yes, I am       !

In my waitressing days, I would have been fired on the spot in front of the offended customer if I had asked a party to leave.  My question:  What is the prevailing cultural norm--do managers regularly ask people to leave?  Or is this rude?  I am not talking about parties that tie up tables for hours and hours--we weren't even seated for a full hour!

[Jinmyo]

Oh my. This is going to be a thread.  

stellabella, deplorable. Yes, it's rude. But I believe quite common in these kinds of places. I think many customers are cowed by the overt signs from the waitstaff and just leave because, well, it's just not any fun to sit where someone really doesn't want you to be sitting.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I, and five others, were asked to leave the Fat Duck in Bray after Heston Blumenthal sat down uninvited at our table and began to expound on how he'd cooked our meal. One of our party told him she wasn't in the slightest bit interested in how he cooked the food, that she would really rather be talking to her dinner companions and shouldn't he be in the kitchen preparing the desserts. The maitre then presented us with the bill and told us that the chef was not prepared to serve us desserts and would we please pay the bill and leave.

We did leave but, needless to say, we didn't pay the bill.

[Ruby]

Hi stellabella. Yes, this joint was rude to you and your sisters but it sounds like an 'eat it and beat it' place. I've seen this happen just the way you describe in those generic diners in Manhattan. Just last week on East 57th Street, a manager approached four women at a booth and said "Ladies, I needa da table. Itsa busy at lunchtime and if ya finished, you gotta go. People waiting."

So don't take it personally and try to let it go. My friends and I have also been asked to move from a table in restaurants and are offered a comped drink at the bar. We get so annoyed we order the highest premium brand drink.

[Rail Paul]

I think the joint was rude.

My wife has a group (3-4 women) who get together every two or three months in a different restaurant. As soon as they sit down, they call over the server, explain they're gonna be there for a while, and will hand him/her $10 cash as an advance on a tip.

Ensures an attentive server, they've never had a problem, except once when they held a table from 1 pm until the restaurant threw them out at 4 as they wanted to vacuum prior to dinner service.

[stellabella]

i guess you can call it an "eat it and beat it" place--it's been around for many many years but not in this location. i hadn't been in years til two weeks ago when i went there with a girlfriend who lives very close to it in atlanta--we met for lunch and this was her choice--we had great food and great service and sat for well over an hour, just the two of us, talking as girls do, ya know.

and no one gave us a sideways glance.

hm.

[Basildog]

Lord Lewis...this incident at the Fat Duck, was it before he became mega famous? Sounds outragerous ! In the last 3 years i have had my place , ive yet to ask anyone to leave , and we have had some pretty " interesting" people in. I have warned some people about there manners, language etc , but never thrown anyone out. And , no , this is not a challenge  to you good people of e gullet to see how far you can push me!  

[Bux]

How I'd react to being asked to leave wne occupying a table after I'd finished eating would have more to do with how I was asked than just the fact that I was asked. I know most restaurants turn tables to make a living for the owner and staff and I know that people waiting for a table deserve the chance to dine.

"Ladies, I don't mean to be rude, but if you aren't going to be spending any more money here this morning, then we need you to leave so that we can seat the people who are waiting." doesn't quite cut it with me. What did she mean by saying she didn't mean to be rude? Did those words accidently come out of her mouth. I'm not offended by the facts of life or the necessities of buisness, but how about a little grace in the request.

[macrosan]

I think Bux has this exactly right. If she had said "Ladies, I hope you'll understand that we have some people waiting to eat here, and if it's no trouble for you, they would very much appreciate it if you would vacate your table in the next 5 minutes or so. Of course, if you do wish to sit awhile, please feel free to do so"

Maybe that wording isn't exactly right, but I'm sure it would be less exceptionable.

[Andy Lynes]

I must admit that this doesn't sound like an unreasonable request on the part of the diner if people were waiting, and assuming that there were no other tables available. Was it the way in which the request was made rather than the request itself?

[Tonyfinch]

LML-at last the secret of your loathing of all things Blumenthal (or have I missed it before?). I must say,however,that your companion's response to the intrusion  smacks of "why don't you get back below stairs where you belong"

And why would you go to a restaurant like The Fat Duck and NOT be "the slightest bit interested" in how the food was prepared?

On the other hand,chefs who impose themselves unasked on punters do run the risk of being rebuffed from time to time and should be prepared for it.To ask you to leave because of it sounds childish.

[stellabella]

I must admit that this doesn't sound like an unreasonable request on the part of the diner if people were waiting, and assuming that there were no other tables available.

Was it the way in which the request was made rather than the request itself?

my gut response is both/and

ruby told me not to take it personally, and i don't [thanks darlink] , but EGADS i feel my feminist rage bubbling up to the surface

i think that had my husband been sitting there with me, a bit  older, very tall, she'd not have asked us to leave.  i also know that had my husband been sitting there and she had asked us to leave, he'd have told her to kiss off

i am a wimp, i freely admit it

BUT andy i think the reason i posted this is because i myself have put in considerable years in food service and NEVER heard of such a thing, never, not in this type of restaurant, a trendy diner serving mostly hip cool yuppie local types [which i am not necessarily but it was close to where my sis was staying].  i do think it is rude, but also wonder if this is becoming more and more common.

[Tonyfinch]

This is the great plus point of the British pub.You go to the bar and pay for your drink on the spot.You are then free to sit there for hours on end and there are no wait staff to chivvy you along,ask if you want another etc.etc.You do not have to interact with the establishment at all unless and until you go to the bar for another drink.People prepared to spend fortunes may enter and leave because there is no space but it won't enter anyone's mind to ask to hurry up to make way for them.

[John Whiting]

Of course all this applies even more relevantly to the French café, inasmuch as the English punter will rarely nurse a half-pint through a whole evening, whereas a Frenchman may read his leisurely way through every newspaper on the rack over a single cup of coffee.

[Rachel Perlow]

Not quite an answer, but when I know that we're going to be sitting for a while, I'll just let the bill rest on the table and not put out the money or credit card until we are about ready to leave. Also, did you ask for the bill or did they just bring it? If a place brought me the bill before I indicated I was ready for it (I suppose except for buffet or one-price brunch type places) I would make a point to say that we weren't finished yet. You should've said, no we aren't done and ordered more coffee.

[Andy Lynes]

Stellabella - I've just re-read your original post and I think the bottom line is you had to be there. However, the fact that it was not your waitress, but another front of house person that asked you to leave seems a little bit over the top to me and I can quite see how you might feel under seige. The fact that you were there less than an hour would seem to indicate that the restaurant was at best being impatient with you. At a guess, you would have left within 10 minutes anyway?

[tony h]

If they’d asked nicely I would have vacated the table asap.  Otherwise I would have asked to see the menu & ponder over it until I was ready to leave.  

LML - if that was me & I'd have asked for a tour of his kitchen & pumped him for tips.  But refusing to serve you further because he didn't respect the intimacy of your table is outrageous.

[franklanguage]

"Ladies, I don't mean to be rude, but if you aren't going to be spending any more money here this morning, then we need you to leave so that we can seat the people who are waiting." doesn't quite cut it with me. What did she mean by saying she didn't mean to be rude? Did those words accidently come out of her mouth.

There are many people with undiagnosed neurological disorders that may cause them to say things they don't consciously mean; Tourette's syndrome is only the most famous because certain individuals have been caused to utter profanities against their conscious will.

Maybe there should be a "National Restaurant Disorders Association"; it could be founded to promote research and treatment of these disorders that seem to afflict restaurant personnel. It could be administered as a subgroup of the National Restaurant Association. (Is it just a coincidence that that's NRA for short?)

[jhlurie]

Unlike other similar issues of this type that have been debated here, this one is simple.

Bux has the heart of it... were you asked or told?

"Told" also includes being asked in such a way that there was no reasonable way you say "no".

Even if the check HAD been paid (let's put aside Rachel's question about if they brought it without your request), a simple way for the server to handle it would have been to come over and ask if you wanted anything else.  If you said "no", then a follow-up comment along the lines of "please let us know if there is anything else we can do for you... we'd like to seat some of the people waiting as soon as possible" would have sent the needed message without an air of rudeness, or the crassness of bringing money into it.

[cabrales]

Bux has the heart of it... were you asked or told?

"Told" also includes being asked in such a way that there was no reasonable way you say "no".

jhlurie -- For me, in France, there would generally be no circumstance in which I would be asked to make way for other diners and would feel like there was no reasonable way to say no. So, even if a dining room staff member intended to "tell" me to leave (in the sense you describe), I would feel like it was a request ("ask") that I could choose to not comply with in the event I were dissatisfied with the substance of the request or the way in which it had been posed or both.

Situations where I would be very likely comply with a request to leave a table would be:

(1) It is both the case that all other diners have left (in the case of restaurants with multiple services -- it is the latest service) and it is a late hour (for the geographic area in question).  In this situation, I generally volunteer to leave.

(2) The restaurant has signalled to me, when I am booking a table, that there may be time-related considerations.

(3) The restaurant has a lounge or other formal or informal seating area (e.g., Gordon Ramsay at Claridge's; the seating area before entering the RHR dining room) and I am free there to continue conversation, coffee, etc. I am not particularly bothered by being moved to another area affiliated with the applicable restaurant. This has never happened to me before, but in some New York restaurants, I wouldn't be unhappy being moved to the bar area (to the extent it is within the main body of the restaurant).

(4) There is some other activity, in the restaurant, in which I could participate and in which I choose at that particular point to undertake (e.g., tour of the kitchen or wine cellar offered by the restaurant, if a decent restaurant; Lotus in NYC, with the dancing).

(5) I am having dinner (not lunch) in NYC, I have finished my meal (including coffee, mignardises), I have spent what I consider to be an unduly long time at the table and a curteous request (the antithesis of what stellabella experienced) is made, while other guests intended for my table are waiting.

[jhlurie]

Not to put too fine a distinction on it, cabrales, but I think that most of the readers of this topic haven't been considering the type of restaurant described by stellabella.

Before I say anything more, let me establish that I think that rudeness (especially of the crass variety described by stellabella--where the rationale was basically "move... we've gotta make money) is NEVER acceptible.  Not at Gramercy Tavern, and not at the McDonald's down the street from it.

But comparisons between what stellbella described as "a trendy diner serving mostly hip cool yuppie local types" (or also as "a funky heaps-on-the-food type places that serves coffee in big bowls"--great images, by the way, stella), and places like Gordon Ramsay, Fat Duck in Bray... or ANY place where the eating area is referred to as a "dining room", is a bit misleading.

I'll bet that Stellabella's place didn't even require reservations... it was simply an upscale diner.

Stellabella was there meeting someone, not for a fine dining experience.  What she experienced was unpleasant, and unnecessary, but was it really all that shocking at the type of place she was eating?

We've had this discussion here before.  In part, it's the same old one about how much you can expect from a wait staff making minimum wage, versus a well paid culinary professional at a fine dining establishment.  It's not a matter of right or wrong... it's a matter of expectations.  This part covers the rudeness she experienced, and I feel it's enough for her to consider never returning.

In part, it's also another similar issue--how short or long-sighted you expect a restaurant to be.  A diner of the type she described--by it's very nature--seems to think, wrongly or rightfully, that its profit is tied-up in simply filling seats.  This is very short sighted, and again not excusable... but it's how things work.  A fine dining establishment--at its best--considers the entire picture of customer satisfaction.  They care about return business, or at a minimum, they care about their reputation.

Again... it's a matter of expectations.

[cabrales]

Not to put too fine a distinction on it, cabrales, but I think that most of the readers of this topic haven't been considering the type of restaurant described by stellabella.

jhlurie -- Yes, that's true in my case.   Perhaps a better analogy would be the little Paris sidewalk bistros where one finds people sitting and having coffee or simple things. Some people stay for a very long time, without ordering additional items.

[stellabella]

ya'll/yins/you'uns are so supportive--I feel like I've been bathed in honey and treated to an all-over chocolate massage..

jhlurie, cabrales, andy, everyone--

yeah, perhaps my expectations are a bit high, and isn't that SAD?

i think of myself as a helpless hapless cynic but in truth i still tend to be pretty idealistic and have unreasonably high expectations for social conventions, i fear.  i was a server for five years at a place that might also be described as an upscale diner--the owner was/is an evil man, but in spite of the cruelty he visited upon his employees, he treated every paying customer who walked through the door like his/her you-know-what didn't you-know-what

and to his credit, he's going on 21 years in business and getting ready to expand again, i hear--i guess i was well-trained there, that service is almost everything. [good food matters as much as service, of course]

tony, two and a half months and counting--i'll be sitting in the pub, enjoying my ales.  *sigh*

[Tonyfinch]

tony, two and a half months and counting--i'll be sitting in the pub, enjoying my ales.  *sigh*

Hope we can meet up Stellabella. I'm still open to recs for our trip to the Deep South in the Sunmmer (see Gulf Coast and Blues Trail on Southern USA board).

[John Whiting]

For me, in France, there would generally be no circumstance in which I would be asked to make way for other diners and would feel like there was no reasonable way to say no.

That is generally true. (Of course, one can think of the occasional exception.) And the fact that it is generally true says an enormous amount about the differences which still exist between the two cultures. Speaking as an American who has lived in London for half his life, whenever I'm treated really well "back home" in an American restaurant, I feel as though I were visiting some country which is foreign to the US. Sometimes it is an idealized France or Italy; sometimes it is some Oriental tradition of obligation to an unknown stranger; or occasionally it may simply be an echo of old-fashioned southern hospitality. But whatever it is, attentive but relaxed service in which one turns off the clock and allows a transaction which could be concluded in a few minutes to stretch out over a couple of hours is profoundly un-American!

I could follow that with a smilie, thus passing it off as a joke, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that it's a soundbite with real teeth.