Customers v Chefs

[FaustianBargain]

slightly off topic. how do restaurants deal with allergies unknown to the diner? maybe someone orders shellfish for the first time and it turns out that they are allergic. the foh team is equipped/trained to deal with situations like that? just curious.

I think MaxH brought up an interesting point back there....the allergy being a "designer" mentality.....in the fine dining kitchen I am in , I hear requests every service....a lot based on allergies.....it is always described as "a severe allergy"...and then usually a long list of ingredients.....I had maybe 40 allergies myself as a kid.  (luckily grew out of them).....still have "sensitivities" to some foods....but there is definately a trend to label a sensitivity or dislike of an ingredient used on a plate as an allergy........

It disrupts service for sure when you have cooks running through the recipes and mise en place to see what and what can't be used.....I usually end up "qualifying" these "allergies" ....if the person says they are allergic to garlic....I will find out if that would include chives, or leeks, or shallots as well.....are sulfuric compounds in these alliums going to have them gasping on the dining room floor.....is the pungency of the garlic going to disrupt their meditation session at the spa.....or do they just not like the taste of garlic.....in other words.....am I going to kill them if I use no garlic on the dish but some shallot sneaks in a sauce on another course..? 

Making them happy is a challenge sometimes......killing them is ...well...bad...m'kay?

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[culinary bear]

slightly off topic. how do restaurants deal with allergies unknown to the diner? maybe someone orders shellfish for the first time and it turns out that they are allergic. the foh team is equipped/trained to deal with situations like that? just curious.

In cases of anaphylactic shock, you'd dial 999 and the paramedics would administer adrenaline and probably an antihistamine when they got there. There's not much you could do even as a trained civilian.

There's an article in the current Caterer & Hotelkeeper about this, and the 'reasonable steps' a business should take to ensure that no unexpected surprises should lurk for a diner unaware of an allergy, such as not using groundnut oil for general sauteeing purposes, that sort of thing.

In short, the onus is on the customer, but reasonable precautions on the part of the business wouldn't go amiss.

[robyn]

I think 911 would work better . Robyn

[culinary bear]

I think 911 would work better  .  Robyn

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not here it wouldn't.

[srhcb]

A regular guest walks in and says " hey, where is the tuna ?"

I told him that it was time to make something new and quite frankly, I had got a little tired of making it.

He says to me " I did not get tired of eating it ! "

I changed the menu the next day. I realized it was not about me or my ego, it was about making my guests happy and comfortable. If this was what kept them coming back, who was I to deny them that ? No reasonable offer refused !

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Although he is only two dimentional, being a character in the Japanese comic, (manga), "Heibon no heibon", (The Ordinary Extraordinary), the chef Yamaoka expressed a similar sentiment, (quoted in the current issue of Gastronomica magaze), when he stated:

"The idea behind cooking is to bring joy to the person who is eating your cooking. If that's the case, you would naturally prepare and season the food to the tastes of the person whom you wish to be happy, wouldn't you?"

[robyn]

I think 911 would work better  .  Robyn

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not here it wouldn't.

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Is that the number in the UK - or somewhere else? Thanks for the information (never know when you'll need an emergency number). Robyn

[culinary bear]

The number in the UK for the four emergency services (police, ambulance, fire brigade and coastguard) is 999. 112 also works, but not very many people know about it (apparently it was introduced so that if the 9 key on your phone was defective you were still in with a chance).

[irodguy]

The bottom line is that you have to serve the customer, if it's within reason.

That being said if a customer orders something extremely special on a Friday night when you are packed, it’s perfectly reasonable for you to explain that you will be happy to fulfill this request on Monday or Tuesday, but you cannot do specialty meals on the weekend.

As for extreme allergy issues, I do know of several local establishments that keep both benhadryl and epi pens in stock. One of my good friends was telling me about having to use one a few months ago. They called 911 and were instructed to use it.

[NulloModo]

Here is a question for the chefs/servicepeople:

How do you react when a customer has a justifiable complaint, but something that others might just accept?

For example, say a customer orders a burger medium rare, and it comes out medium-well, or the customer says his fries are too cold/limp or his bun too stale. Assuming the customer is not making it up, do you feel any antipathy towards this customer for having to redo the order, or do you accept it as mistakes happen and up the service to make up for it? I always kind of feel bad sending meat back, but I certainly get no pleasure from eating meat cooked beyond medium (well, unless its supposed to be that way, like fried chicken or something)...

[nwyles]

I know a girl who had a guest tell them that they were deathly allergic to something when they were being sat. She told them that they should not eat at that restaurant. A real honest response that probably saved their lives. This was a chain restaurantwith young cooks cranking out pre-made sauces etc. No guarantee of survival.

As to the acceptable but justifiable complaint. My reactions are on a case by case evaluation. It is usually based on the $$ involved.

Re-do an order of fries - no problem - they probably were sitting on the pass for too long - it happens - no big deal

My favourite is the guest who can't give you a specific doneness on a steak

"I like it pinkish !" and then sends it back because it does not have enough red in it.

That really pisses me off - blue, rare, med rare, med, med well, well - make up your mind and pick one.

I want it well done with lots of juice in it ! Um, Ok ?

Here is the kicker - A large 20 oz New York med rare - it goes out and they shave off a tiny slice from the tip and declare it over-done. As I have gotten a little older and smarter, I promptly cut the steak in half and have the waiter take it back and politely ask how much less they would like it done. I try not to be over the top but a steak is a terrible thing to waste at the say so of an 80 pound 14 year old kid in their first dining room experince.

[culinary bear]

Medium well instead of medium rare is never, ever acceptable; in that case it's clearly the fault of either the kitchen or the serving monkey.

We may scowl and curse, but if it's a genuine mistake I'd feel more aggrieved if the customer was having to eat something he'd rather not in order to avoid offending sensibilities.

As for extreme allergy issues, I do know of several local establishments that keep both benhadryl and epi pens in stock. One of my good friends was telling me about having to use one a few months ago. They called 911 and were instructed to use it.

I'd avoid this like the fucking plague. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit, apart from actually being an illegal act in itself.

You may, possibly, get away with handing the person the epi-pen and allowing them to medicate themselves, but under no circumstances are you allowed to administer either adrenaline in the UK or epinephrine in the US without proper training.

I have seen someone lose a limb because an untrained person thought it would be a good idea to plunge the epipen into their ankle, the reason being that they were wearing a skirt and they didn't want to puncture it. Vasoconstriction led to necrosis, gangrene, and a below the knee amputation.

Edited January 4, 2005 by culinary bear (log)

[robyn]

As a recovering lawyer - I agree with your lawsuit observations.

As for the points about rare meat - I note that it is impossible to get a rare hamburger in Florida these days. Restaurants simply won't serve them (because of liability concerns). We can still get things like raw oysters - but only with a half page of written warnings on the menus.

Our laws here about a restaurant's liability for food induced illnesses are rather draconian. Frankly - if I were in the business - I'd just avoid serving foods that can injure normal people even if handled properly (like local raw oysters). Robyn

[FaustianBargain]

i couldnt agree more strenously. NEVER EVER approach someone unless you are trained AND allowed to administer first aid. even if you have acquired a certificate in first aid or some such thing, these things have to mention that you are qualified to administer first aid. they expire..usually within a year, i think. good samaritans can get sued too.

As for extreme allergy issues, I do know of several local establishments that keep both benhadryl and epi pens in stock. One of my good friends was telling me about having to use one a few months ago. They called 911 and were instructed to use it.

I'd avoid this like the fucking plague. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit, apart from actually being an illegal act in itself.

You may, possibly, get away with handing the person the epi-pen and allowing them to medicate themselves, but under no circumstances are you allowed to administer either adrenaline in the UK or epinephrine in the US without proper training.

I have seen someone lose a limb because an untrained person thought it would be a good idea to plunge the epipen into their ankle, the reason being that they were wearing a skirt and they didn't want to puncture it. Vasoconstriction led to necrosis, gangrene, and a below the knee amputation.

[chef koo]

i think i might be breaking a rule by bringing back a dead topic but i love this type of topic and wanted to include my two cents. someone let me know if this is agianst the rulse please.

but anyways, something i just learned about the legal side of giving the customer what they want is that if a customer asks for something off of the menu and after completely finishing the meal decides that they don't like it can actually refuse to pay for the meal. i beleive the legal term is know as "invitation to treat". so if you're a chef like me and a customer asks for something off of the menu make sure it's not an asshole customer.

but on the side of the whole "customer is always right" thing, i consider myself to be a very stuborn man when it comes to cooking. since i do'nt have my own restaurant i'm at the mercy of my superiors. if i were to lose business over that than so be it. if you don't like my cooking i'm not offended but nor will i change what i do. i know there are people who will be disgusted with me, raise their noses at me, and judge me as arrogant but i don't find this arrogant at all. i simply want to showcase what i can do. not what the customer wants. no one tells a painter how to paint. no one tells a musician what to play. no one tells a sculpture how to sculpt. tehy simply buy from who they like. if they don't don't then dont buy. why is a restaurant any different?

[alchemyst]

Isn't the relationship between a customer and a chef supposed to be one of mutual respect? Customers coming into a restaurant, unlike one buying a painting or a book, are buying a total experience. The chef (and I am one) is a highlight and hopefully the hook that brings someone into a place, but they don't work alone. A chef still needs the collaboration of their front and back of the house staff as well as that of the customer. I certainly agree that if there are serious dietary issues they should be noted at the time of reservation but I am not so arrogant as to assume that my taste is everyone's. I use the skills and creativity that I poessess in order to bring a great experience to my guests. I expect my staff to listen to the customers and gain whatever information they can to maximize the guest experience. If they don't like mushrooms or tomatoes or rare meat it is my responsibility to take their specifications and create the best meal they've ever tasted. People do exaggerate about health restrictions and allergies but I have been a customer in enough places to know that they may feel justified in elevating their personal prejudices into restrictions because otherwise they won't be honored. I may not agree with their choices but I should still be able to creat something amazing from it. It may not be exactly the same dish as the one described on the menu, I may have to change other elements of the dish, or the entire dish itself to accomodate their adjustments but I should still be able to create something extraordinary that speaks to both of our sensibilities. If I don't have enough skill to be flexible and still express my own taste and style then I can't really consider mysef a true chef.

[chefzadi]

Most of my work experience has been in fine dining and some Haute Cuisine. In the 16 years I've worked in restaurants I really don't recall too many extreme requests. A knowledgable FOH can really be a buffer for this type of thing. If a customer is requesting so many substitutions on a dish a server can suggest and "convince" the customer to try something else. I'm sure some of the chefs in here have had servers who seem to encourage special requests (bigger tips?). Also I've found that if I really can't or don't want to accomodate a special request a little diplomacy goes a long way in keeping the customer happy, mostly along the lines of "I really want to make something special for you, how about this?" There are ways for a chef to protect his kitchen staff from getting slammed and to exert "authority" over his "creations" without alienating a customer.

I can only recall one customer who wore out his welcome. Mostly he harassed the FOH, berated them. Complained about everything. When I was made aware of this I told him that I was so terribly sorry that we did not meet his standards and reccomended a few other places that might be more suitable for his tastes. He still came back, still complained but considerably less, so he became bearable for the FOH.

Two of the most idiotic complaints I heard were "This gastrique isn't saucey enough." Another one from a Spanish customer I had in Korea "Your Paella was great, but the ones I've had in Valencia, Spain are much better. There was something missing. It just wasn't authentic tasting enough." The man wants authentic tasting Spanish paella in Korea?

I suppose my point with all this is that there are just some folks who complain about anything they can. We're in a service industry. In most cases a little diplomacy on the part of the FOH or Chef goes a long way.

[chef koo]

alchemyst, this is all dependant on the individual personality of the chef. some chef's like to comprimise. some don't

[chefzadi]

alchemyst, this is all dependant on the individual personality of the chef. some chef's like to comprimise. some don't

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It seems that there is no consensus here on what constitutes "compromise." As professionals and consumers we all make individual choices.

The seared ahi tuna is a good example. My Korean born wife grew up eating sashimi and sushi. Her parents took her on several culinary tours of South Korea. She prefers her sashimi slighltly chilled. For her seared ahi tuna is a sort of "mock" sashimi dish that ruins perfectly great fish. The warm/room temperature mostly raw fish doesn't appeal to her at all. That's not to say that ALL experienced sushi lovers feel this way. SHE does.

A lot of Mediterranean preparations for tuna are in fact well done. There are also slow cooked braised versions. I prefer my tuna pretty much cooked and yes if prepared properly it can still be moist.

Needless to say my wife and I don't order seared ahi tuna.

I had a customer who liked his filet mignon completely charred, almost burnt on the outside but the inside totally raw. So I would jack up the flame on the grill and make it that way for him. He came to the restaurant every week like clockwork. I wouldn't eat it this way. But it's none of my business how he eats his.

[halloweencat]

Not all special requests are alike.  If a customer requests a piece of meat well-done because they have an immune deficiency, it should be prepared well-done no questions asked.  If they request it well done because they haven't been educated to appreciate properly cooked meat, the waiter should come back and suggest a more appropriate done-ness, and explain the reasoning behind it.  IF the customer still insists on well-done, it should be prepared this way.

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no questions asked? is the diner supposed to disclose his/her immune status, or how is it determined why the request is being made? i would opine that the diner's immune status is his or her own business, and not to be determined by the server.

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absolutely. i get the feeling that in many establishments, and with many servers, there is an "acceptable" reason for a request, and this confounds many patrons.

i'd also like to add that there are folks who are recovering anorexics, recovering bullemics and the like with food issues. i don't think this should preclude them from a good meal in a healthy environment, and with healthy associations (friends, etc.)

an alcoholic can choose (as hard is it may be) to abstain from liquor entirely. someone with food issues has to find a way to work within them, as everyone needs to eat to stay alive.

cheers :)

hc

[chefzadi]

RE: i'd also like to add that there are folks who are recovering anorexics, recovering bullemics and the like with food issues. i don't think this should preclude them from a good meal in a healthy environment, and with healthy associations (friends, etc.)

_______________________________________________________________________

Absolutely and such a persons have the absolute right to choose a healthy envrionment. My French menu is clearly not for them. And thank God they have so many other places to choose from.

If you want organic produce go to Whole Foods Market, not Safeway. If you're a petite woman don't shop at the Big Beautiful woman store. If you're strictly Kosher don't go to Lee's Pork bar que. If you don't like garlic and peppers don't go to a Korean restaurant..

At a certain point common sense and manners should kick in. You can't everything you want everywhere you go.

[halloweencat]

i don't think that's the only valid view, 'tho i appreciate yours.

if someone is looking to feel good about eating, and want to go where the staff truly cares about the food, why should they be relegated to some place that isn't going to care as much? this is where the line seems to be drawn between "acceptable" requests and "unacceptable." what patrons fear: staff making judgement calls about the reason s for the requests.

i'm not talking about the bullemic or anorexic who is out of control. i'm talking about someone who just wants a little control over what he/she puts in his/her mouth. which, in essence, is similar to what a person with an allergy wants. i don't understand why one person's needs can be accomodated, and another's not. and let's not assume that the requests of these folks are all extreme, because that would not be accurate.

cheers :)

hc

[stovetop]

i don't understand why one person's needs can be accomodated, and another's not. and let's not assume that the requests of these folks are all extreme, because that would not be accurate.

If a person with more requests be willing to pay more money???

steve

Edited January 19, 2005 by stovetop (log)

[halloweencat]

should the person with allergies pay more?

cheers :)

hc

[stovetop]

If it affects the kitchen and it cost more money then why not??

steve

[stovetop]

If you go to McDonalds and change the menu, you wait.

So why do people feel in a fine dinning environment expect things now, even after they have changed everything on the menu, no this, no that, can I substitute this for that, I have learned that once you let the cat out of the bag it is hard to get it back in.

When I had my own restaurant and someone made lots of changes I would present a new price fro the changes, these changes cost me money, although life is different when you have relationships with customers, you have the tendency to allow a lot breathing room for someone who spends lots of money in your establishment, it is called a regular customer and business is based on that.

You treat your regulars like gold, but someone who you have never seen comes into the restaurant and has these entire weird request you kind of take a step back.

What

Should we just bend over and take it from every one????

steve