Customers v Chefs

[culinary bear]

This has kind of grown from a comment I made, and the responses to it, in the Festivus thread.

You know the scenario, regardless of which side of the divide you normally see it from. A customer wants his wild salmon or his venison fillet cooked well-done, or complains that the seared foie gras isn't cooked in the middle.

Marco Pierre White famously charged a customer 30 pounds for the bowl of chips they'd been cheeky enough to ask for in his michelin 3-star restaurant.

At what point are chefs justified in drawing the line? Should customers always get what they want, on the basis that they're the ones paying for it? Should chefs have the opportunity to say that they're not prepared to serve tomato ketchup with their foie gras, or to cook that pigeon breast well-done?

I'd appreciate your views, from all sides of this.

[winesonoma]

This has kind of grown from a comment I made, and the responses to it, in the Festivus thread.

You know the scenario, regardless of which side of the divide you normally see it from.  A customer wants his wild salmon or his venison fillet cooked well-done, or complains that the seared foie gras isn't cooked in the middle.

Marco Pierre White famously charged a customer 30 pounds for the bowl of chips they'd been cheeky enough to ask for in his michelin 3-star restaurant.

At what point are chefs justified in drawing the line?  Should customers always get what they want, on the basis that they're the ones paying for it?  Should chefs have the opportunity to say that they're not prepared to serve tomato ketchup with their foie gras, or to cook that pigeon breast well-done?

I'd appreciate your views, from all sides of this.

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If you don't wish to eat what the Chef serves, you should go to Denny's ( a chain). However even Denny's would not alter what they served when I asked.

[WHT]

This has kind of grown from a comment I made, and the responses to it, in the Festivus thread.

You know the scenario, regardless of which side of the divide you normally see it from.  A customer wants his wild salmon or his venison fillet cooked well-done, or complains that the seared foie gras isn't cooked in the middle.

Marco Pierre White famously charged a customer 30 pounds for the bowl of chips they'd been cheeky enough to ask for in his michelin 3-star restaurant.

At what point are chefs justified in drawing the line?  Should customers always get what they want, on the basis that they're the ones paying for it?  Should chefs have the opportunity to say that they're not prepared to serve tomato ketchup with their foie gras, or to cook that pigeon breast well-done?

I'd appreciate your views, from all sides of this.

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I think that if the customers’ request is reasonable it should be accommodated. People that have to have salmon done well and other things we would find distasteful are not worth loosing sleep or time on. People that make outlandish requests like eggs over easy but no fat or butter can be used; no onions in french onion soup; no onions in shrimp Creole or better yet no butter in sauce béarnaise should die slow lingering deaths as expediently as possible.

[Mabelline]

I don't think it either correct, nor particularly wise, to attempt to change a chef's way with a dish. That is why you go to a certain spot. And you oughta be adult enough to know that some dishes are black and blue, some seared; fish over-done is a crime against nature (eat a fishstick--same taste sensation). I think maybe modern diners have gotten into this paranoid jag of changing everything they order, as a power trip or some such psycho-babble crap. I find this extends way past the dining realm, don't you?

[WHT]

If you don't wish to eat what the Chef serves, you should go to Denny's ( a chain). However even Denny's would not alter what they served when I asked.

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[jgm]

There is a probably outdated understanding on the part of the public that a restaurant should be prepared to serve anything the customer asks for. I know many people who consider it a Rule of the Universe.

However, I suspect that rule originated in a whole 'nother era, and if there are any historians (or even people with a really good memory and a substantial amount of time on the planet) who know the origin of that attitude and wish to add more, I'd love to hear more about it.

I don't think that idea is even the least bit applicable to restaurants anymore. Too many foods, too many cooking styles. These days, I think it's the chef's call. If it's not on the menu, the chef can decide whether to come up with it. And the chef must decide whether to risk permanently alienating the customer if the answer is "no".

Having said that, I think some flexibility is in order. Some customers' choices are made due to allergy or disease (i.e., compromised immune system), and to endeavor to accommodate such customers can be an act of compassion.

But it's still gotta be the chef's call.

[culinary bear]

Having said that, I think some flexibility is in order. Some customers' choices are made due to allergy or disease (i.e., compromised immune system), and to endeavor to accommodate such customers can be an act of compassion.

That raises an interesting point, and one I see an awful lot of :

"Chef, the customer on table X is allergic to :"

egg

dairy products (but not butter)

margarine

water (!)

gluten

garlic, onions, tomatoes

all vegetables

blood

Now, I'm a biochemist by original training; I know people can be allergic to all sorts of things, but I suspect a lot of people are jumping on the 'allergy bandwagon' in order to lend weight to personal whims.

[Bobb]

As a restaurant owner, it was decided prior to opening our doors that if a customer asks for it and we have the ingredients and capabilities, then we will make it. Although there have been occaions when we just said no, we converted several customers to regulars.

[chezcherie]

Having said that, I think some flexibility is in order. Some customers' choices are made due to allergy or disease (i.e., compromised immune system), and to endeavor to accommodate such customers can be an act of compassion.

That raises an interesting point, and one I see an awful lot of :

"Chef, the customer on table X is allergic to :"

egg

dairy products (but not butter)

margarine

water (!)

gluten

garlic, onions, tomatoes

all vegetables

blood

Now, I'm a biochemist by original training; I know people can be allergic to all sorts of things, but I suspect a lot of people are jumping on the 'allergy bandwagon' in order to lend weight to personal whims.

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this is my line-cook son's pet peeve.

"just say you don't like/want it. don't say you are allergic to it. ESPECIALLY when it's caramel, and you are ordering apple tart with(out) caramel sauce. the caramel is sugar and cream, and that's in the blasted tart." (he didn't say blasted, but i'm his mother...)

Edited December 28, 2004 by chezcherie (log)

[Mabelline]

Okay, is that an offshoot of the familytree of control I was talking about? How in the name of Aunt Hattie can one be allergic to water? Allergic to 70% of your bodyweight? OK, and believe me when I understand about contraindications with meds totally screwing up your bodies, but if your needs are that dire, and you're eating at that fine an establishment, should you not call ahead of time and give the chef a chance in Hell of accomodating? Or am I just too old for my Jimmy Chu's?

Edited December 28, 2004 by Mabelline (log)

[culinary bear]

Okay, is that an offshoot of the familytree of control I was talking about? How in the name of Aunt Hattie can one be allergic to water? Allergic to 70% of your bodyweight? OK, and believe me when I understand about contraindications with meds totally screwing up your bodys, but if your needs are that dire, and you're eating at that fine an establishment, should you not call ahead of time and give the chef a chance in Hell of accomodating? Or am I just too old for my Jimmy Chu's?

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In the heat of service, a lot of chefs will tell you to piss off if you bombard them with arcane requests... Phone ahead either on the day, or glory of glories, the day before and explain your wants, and just about every chef I know worth their salt will do their utmost to give you something compatible, and special.

[woodburner]

A customer willing to ask for an item that precludes itself not to be within the circle of normalcy, is than an item that is considered "special".

Specials are unreturnable, for any reason.

Specials are also priced above normalcy, in all situations.

woodburner

[Mabelline]

I like your new icon, my man. But I feel there's a common current of missunderstanding running between front of house, back of house, and customers anymore. I tend to treat everyone with respect until THEY prove it to be an exercise in futility. But if you are going through someone's doors with that many restrictions or forbidden foods, you ought to be like the old folks always warned: Smart birds don't shite in their nests. Still makes just plain ole hard sense to me.

[Mabelline]

Absolutely, woodburner. If you go asking for something special, you tote that note. But don't you just think a lot of this goes back to say, the 60's? That's when I first recall people who read a little about Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy (Who WAS impeccible in her manners), mis-interpreting style and coming up with uppity as a sorry substitute? That's as close as I can reckon.

[winesonoma]

If you don't wish to eat what the Chef serves, you should go to Denny's ( a chain). However even Denny's would not alter what they served when I asked.

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What sort of alteration did you request? I can only think of a couple of things that would generate that responce.

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[dknywbg]

Doesn't this also depend on what kind of restaurant it is? One of my (former) favorite neighborhood places--stress the word NEIGHBORHOOD, although the food is very good--refused to substitute a baked potato, which is on their menu, for the au gratin side that came with one of the entrees. Now, call me crazy, but if I'm trying to avoid overindulging and I know the restaurant has a baked potato back there, why on earth shouldn't I be allowed to request it? That strikes me as an overly imperious chef, one who doesn't give a hoot about whether the diner goes away happy. (If this were a 3- or 4-star place I'd understand, but we're talking about an upscale tavern here...)

We don't go there anymore.

[NulloModo]

Not all special requests are alike. If a customer requests a piece of meat well-done because they have an immune deficiency, it should be prepared well-done no questions asked. If they request it well done because they haven't been educated to appreciate properly cooked meat, the waiter should come back and suggest a more appropriate done-ness, and explain the reasoning behind it. IF the customer still insists on well-done, it should be prepared this way.

There should be no obligation for requests that involve leaving out integral ingredients in large-pot prepared dishes. If a customer requests no Okra in his gumbo, there is no reason that a chef should be expected to brew up another 10 gallon pot of gumbo just to leave out the okra. However, requests for for leaving things out in dishes that are prepared plate by plate, for example, a steak without a special sauce, or a salad without mandarin oranges, these should be honored, as it is pretty easy to do.

Requests for substitions on sides should always be honored as long as the pricing is similar: extra salad instead of a potato, a caesar salad instead of a garden salad, one vegetable or starch side instead of another, etc. Requests for subs that would raise the cost of the plate should be honored, and the diner informed that a small increase in price will be applied towards their entree to make up for the difference. Requests for obnoxiously daft subs, like a skewer of shrimp instead of steamed veggies, should obviously be refused, or the diner given the option of adding the skewer of shrimp ala carte to their entree and being charged thusly for it.

In all cases basic things like subs of dressings, condiments, toppings on sandwhiches, etc, should be honored without question.

In some ways many of the chains are apparently head of the fine-dining establishments in some of these areas. I can go to Friday's and get a bunless burger platter with some extra blue cheese, mustard, and mayo on the side, real cheese instead of american, and all the regular burger veggies applied and no one ever bats a lash at the request, they are happy to oblige, and I am happy to go back and order it again. When I used to frequent Denny's I never had issues there either. I have never tried asking for subs at a fine-dining place, so, for all I know they would be just as happy to do it, but from some of the posts in this thread it seems as if they might not be...

Actually, the only place I can recall that had a blatantly piss-poor attitude about substitions was IHOP. You'd think that a side-salad would be a perfectly sensible sub for hash browns and a biscuit, but not only would they not do it (even with me offering to pay extra), the waitress got quite uppity at me when I made the request, oh well, that was the last time I went to IHOP.

[winesonoma]

Doesn't this also depend on what kind of restaurant it is? One of my (former) favorite neighborhood places--stress the word NEIGHBORHOOD, although the food is very good--refused to substitute a baked potato, which is on their menu, for the au gratin side that came with one of the entrees. Now, call me crazy, but if I'm trying to avoid overindulging and I know the restaurant has a baked potato back there, why on earth shouldn't I be allowed to request it? That strikes me as an overly imperious chef, one who doesn't give a hoot about whether the diner goes away happy. (If this were a 3- or 4-star place I'd understand, but we're talking about an upscale tavern here...)

We don't go there anymore.

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Swapping side orders should not be a problem if it's on the Menu in a tavern. At a higher end place the Chef may do the meal as a package of varying tastes and be reluctant to change it.

[WHT]

However, I suspect that rule originated in a whole 'nother era, and if there are any historians (or even people with a really good memory and a substantial amount of time on the planet) who know the origin of that attitude and wish to add more, I'd love to hear more about it.

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The idea that the customer is always right goes back to Sears & Roebuck and other early mass retailers. The idea is that if you do exactly what the customer wants it will build loyalty but often has another effect; and that is it attracts a base of customers that is cumbersome to support. In relationships outside of servitude paid or otherwise seldom works.

[chezcherie]

Not all special requests are alike.  If a customer requests a piece of meat well-done because they have an immune deficiency, it should be prepared well-done no questions asked.  If they request it well done because they haven't been educated to appreciate properly cooked meat, the waiter should come back and suggest a more appropriate done-ness, and explain the reasoning behind it.  IF the customer still insists on well-done, it should be prepared this way.

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no questions asked? is the diner supposed to disclose his/her immune status, or how is it determined why the request is being made? i would opine that the diner's immune status is his or her own business, and not to be determined by the server.

[NulloModo]

The idea that the customer is always right goes back to Sears & Roebuck and other early mass retailers. The idea is that if you do exactly what the customer wants it will build loyalty but often has another effect; and that is it attracts a base of customers that is cumbersome to support. In relationships outside of servitude paid or otherwise seldom works.

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Anyone who has ever worked in any kind of service industry knows that customers in general can be cumbersome, but the fact is that there are lots of other places they could go with their business, and if you want it, you have to earn it. To their faces, the customer is always right, and she be treated with respect, and every reasonable request honored.

Once the customer leaves if the employees want to go on a 'the customer is always an asshole' tirade that is more than understandable, but at least give the customer a good experience first.

[NulloModo]

Not all special requests are alike.  If a customer requests a piece of meat well-done because they have an immune deficiency, it should be prepared well-done no questions asked.  If they request it well done because they haven't been educated to appreciate properly cooked meat, the waiter should come back and suggest a more appropriate done-ness, and explain the reasoning behind it.  IF the customer still insists on well-done, it should be prepared this way.

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no questions asked? is the diner supposed to disclose his/her immune status, or how is it determined why the request is being made? i would opine that the diner's immune status is his or her own business, and not to be determined by the server.

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Hmm, that's a good point, but the way I see it, most diners with an allergy have no problem stating that they have an allergy, and an immune deficiency resulting in an inability to eat meat cooked to a certain done-ness seems functionally similar to an allergy.

[Hest88]

See, I think we should differentiate between requests that just offend the sensibilities of the chef and requests that are truly onerous to the kitchen. Denying the former is just a way for the chef to exercise power over his domain. It serves no real purpose except to fuel his anger and alienate his customer. Is leaving salmon on the grill just a few minutes longer *really* that big a deal in the grand scheme of things?

But, as Nullo pointed out, when it comes to something that really causes trouble or is virtually impossible--such as removing okra from gumbo-- the kitchen really has a practical reason to deny the request.

[WHT]

No salt, I think everything is pre salted unless you order of the bland menu.

That would be a hard one as so much of the menu is from powder or in some other form of pre-made product. If you are on sodium restricted diet any of the chains wold have some problems with that.

I spent two years working graveyard shift in one in Ocean, NJ. Like the guy that wanted his NY strip cooked well and his definition of well was like shoe leather. Sure you want to pay for a ruined meal go ahead. We made the nachos in the microwave, at 3:30 on a Wednesday night wanted them done in the oven; he did not want them bad enough to wait the half our for the oven to come to temperature. The guy that ordered the eggs over easy with no fat but ordered extra sausage but was “allergic to fat.” Got his eggs only because I had read the solution in a book some time back on things to do to annoy people.

[phifly04]

"customer is always right" is to me very valid as we are in the service industry.Is it annoying?Not if you train your mind to this simple quote,because we know it,s gonna happen.If i can accommodate a request and have the items needed to do the dish,i will.

dave s