Adapting a basic dough recipe for other uses

[NulloModo]

Hi,

With the help of Scott123 I have recently been able to make a very good low-carb bread from the following recipe:

6 T Vital Wheat Gluten (or Wheat Protein Isolate)

4 T Flax seeds, ground (volume increases)

3 T Oat Fiber

2 T Polydextrose

2 1/2 tablespoons oil

1/2 teaspoon yeast

1/4 teaspoon salt

1 cup water

Now, now that I have made this work, I would like to be able to adapt this for things like cinnamon rolls, pizza crust, etc. I have tried cinnamon rolls already, using the same recipe, and just rolling the dough out, cutting into strips, coating with cinnamon/butter/xylitol, rolling back up, and baking. They taste very good, but didn't rise/puff-up like the rolls, or a traditional cinnamon roll, would.

I am also very interested in making a tasty texture-accurate (or close) pizza-dough. I am not sure what steps I should take first though. I think I might want to obviously not proof a pizza dough (just let it rise, roll it out, and bake it hot, right?) but I wonder if I shouldn't somehow change the recipe to make it crustier/crunchier and less soft as well.

Any suggestions on some things I could do to my base recipe to make it work in other situations?

[NulloModo]

Perhaps this would help:

If this were not an LC recipe, how would you approach it? In general, what qualities of dough will make for crustier crispier results, more protein, or more fiber, or more of something else? Higher/lower baking temepratures? Less/more rise time, or something else special added?

[NulloModo]

No one here with ideas on this at all? I am going to attempt the pizza tomorrow, adding more fiber/less gluten, and going to hope for more crisp unless I hear something different...

[chromedome]

The gluten might work...

You might also try laminating the dough, like a croissant or danish dough. Roll in a quantity of butter, and give it a few turns. You'll get some additional "poof" from the roll-in, and it should also improve the texture.

[jackal10]

There is not much there for the yeast to feed on, so you must get the aeration from some other means, either chemical (baking powder) or mechanical (lamination), or add something for the yeast to chew on. As it is, the yeast is just acting as a flavouring, although there will be a little activity from the yeast eating itself and the carbs in its carrier.

Not sure what the rules allow, but yeast basically eats simple sugars, like Fructose that is split from the starch in a normal recipe. You could try adding a small amount (say 1T) of fructose, maybe as honey.

[lovebenton0]

In addition to jackal's good fructose suggestion and the others, when you make something like cinnamon rolls -- be sure not to make the dough too thin. It should be about 2/3" thick when patted out on the board. Treat it gently as you don't seem to have that much gas going for you. Then butter and coat with filling first, roll and cut the roll into slices after that. If the dough wants to smash down when cutting with a knife a good way to cut slices is to slide a length of heavy thread under the loaf loop up around to slice through. Put cut side down on baking surface, cover. Allow time to proof, don't rush it. Although the turning and frucose should certainly help the proof.

Do we get to see some pics?

[NulloModo]

Sure, I will post some pics as things come along, thanks for the suggestions so far, btw.

As far as the yeast goes, from my understanding the yeast will be able to feed on the polydextrose, but just in case, I have also been proofing the yeast in a bowl with 1/2 a cup of warm water and about 1 packet of real sugar, hoping to get the yeast off to a good start, and hoping that during the proofing/rising time the yeast will eat up the sugar, not leaving any in the finished product.

[jackal10]

Depends on the yeast. Normal bread yeast will not digest polydextrose, although there may be up to 1% glucose as an impurity - poly dextrose is made by polymerising glucose. Indeed there is even a patent on removing glucose from polydextrose by fermenting it with yeast.

Lacto bacilli (as in sourdough) may be able to split polydextrose into fermentable sugars. I don't think there is much work on this, except the classic study of polydextrose eaten by 30 chinese subjects showed that there was a small increase in the lactobacillus content of stools compared to the control group - polydextrose is fermented in the large intestine. It would be interesting to try your mix with a sourdough starter. You would need to increase the proof time.

Consumption of more then 10g/day of polydextrose "may lead to excessive flatulance".

Commercial low-carb bread mixes, such as Keto, contain sucrose to feed the yeast.

[NulloModo]

OK, so Pizza experiment 1 is finished.

I adapted the recipe by increasing gluten and fiber content while reducing the amount of flax meal. No baking powder was used either, as I figured I didn't want a puffy pizza dough.

I kneaded, proofed, and then rolled it out betweeen two sheets of parchment paper, like so:

I then pre-baked the crust at 400 degrees for a bit, but I think I made it a bit too thin, the middle started to cook far faster than the sides, so I pulled it out before the surrounded areas were completely done to prevent burning.

I topped it (decided to go with a mexican theme, spicey sausage, chorizo, salsa instead of tomato sauce, some onion, cheddar/jack cheese, and crushed red pepper) and tossed it back in till the toppings looked done and it was browned on the outside.

Positives:

The taste and texture of the crust were very good. It doesn't taste exactly like regular pizza dough, but it is darn close, and the differences are not bad, at least not to my pallete, I kinda like the nutty flavor the flaxmeal imparts.

The color was pretty good as well.

Negatives:

I think I made the dough too thin, or put on too much salsa, as it wasn't really crispy, but more limp (similar to what you find at most long island pizza joints, except the crust was not super-greasy).

The inside of the outter crust was somewhat underdone still.

The weight of the toppings was too much for the thin crust, next time I will make my crust thicker, or top it more conservatively.

All in all this is probably the best Low-Carb pizza I have tried thus far, but it isn't perfect yet, but I will play around with it more till I get closer.

[scott123]

Depends on the yeast. Normal bread yeast will not digest polydextrose, although there may be up to 1% glucose as an impurity - poly dextrose is made by polymerising glucose. Indeed there is even a patent on removing glucose from polydextrose by fermenting it with yeast.

Lacto bacilli (as in sourdough) may be able to split polydextrose into fermentable sugars. I don't think there is much work on this, except the classic study of polydextrose eaten by 30 chinese subjects showed that there was a small increase in the lactobacillus content of stools compared to the control group - polydextrose is fermented in the large intestine. It would be interesting to try your mix with a sourdough starter. You would need to increase the proof time.

Consumption of more then 10g/day of polydextrose  "may lead to excessive flatulance".

Commercial low-carb bread mixes, such as Keto, contain sucrose to feed the yeast.

←

Are you absolutely sure yeast won't digest polydextrose? I originally recommended polydextrose to Nullo as a potential yeast nutrient since inulin was in the original recipe used for the commercial bread he was replicating. So far my research has confirmed inulin to be a yeast nutrient. Since polydextrose has some similar attributes, I thought it too might be a potential yeast nutrient. Since I still have a lot to learn about both inulin and polydextrose, this was just a shot in the dark, though.

When Peter Reinhart was here recently, I asked him about the need for table sugar to sustain yeast in low carb breads. He didn't feel that table sugar was all that necessary and that the yeast could thrive on the small amount of glucose contained in other commonly used low carb ingredients such as legume or nut flours.

Edited December 13, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[jackal10]

Yes. Do a google search for Polydextrose and fermentation...

[NulloModo]

Cinnamon Rolls v2 (sorry, no photos, they didn't come out).

I used the base recipe again, but as suggested I rolled it out not too thin (about 2/3" thick). I also divided the dough into four rolls instead of six.

This time the rolls puffed up much more during baking, and filled out into a more traditional cinnamon roll shape. The flavor of one right out of the oven was very good, especially with the cream cheese/butter/splenda/Ace-K/Stevia icing.

I didn't sweeten the dough, although I did add some cinnamon to it. Surprisingly, I don't think the dough needs sweetening. Do you generally add sweetener to the dough when making cinnamon rolls, or is that reserved for the icing?

[scott123]

Nullo, traditionally cinnamon rolls are a sweet rich dough - additional sugar and additional fat (usually butter) in addition to the butter/sugar used to roll them. The additional fat will weaken the gluten structure, so the rolls may not rise as much.

[NulloModo]

Hmm. I am still playing with this one. My goal for the cinnamon rolls is to be able to ship them overseas and have them hold up (as a gift). Actually, I can say I am pretty darn happy with the taste/texture as they are now, but I might play around with adding a little sweetener to the dough next time around, as I doubt my cream cheese/butter frosting will hold up without refridgeration for shipment.

Speaking of which, I suppose I will need to figure out a new glaze. I am wondering if polydextrose would melt/carmelize like sugar would, I guess there is one way to find out... I will have to try that, with some xylitol added for sweetness, and hopefully I will come up with a glaze that will be stable at room temp for a good period of time and still taste good.

[lovebenton0]

Yes, definitely a rich dough for the cinnamon rolls. And the glaze need not be as rich (i.e. butter/cream cheese) to be good on these. A simple glaze, boosted with a bit of vanilla and possibly mace will do quite well. Even a maple or nut extract can be used. I don't think any of that is going to upset your carb balance.

Adding a cup of mashed sweet potato, or white potato, (per approx eight cups flour equilvalent) might be way outside your preferred range for low carb in this recipe, NulloModo. However it's one of the best ways to add shelf life to your baked goods. I made sweet potato cinnamon rolls, and breads from the same basic dough altering application over Thanksgiving. Big loaf (really big loaf!) is my current avatar, also 18 cinnamon rolls and a plain boule from that eight + cups flour with the SP. We finished the last of it last Thursday, without refrigeration of any kind. Good to the last crumb.

Consider that less than a Tbsp of the sweet potato would be consumed in each roll in that ratio. It would sure make the yeast happy too. So, depending on the person you're sending to . . .

[NulloModo]

Well, the person I am sending it to is also avidly doingl the low-carb thing, so the sweet potato would be out ;). However, I wonder if pumpkin might work in place of the sweet potato? That would be carb-friendly, and also add an interesting taste....

[lovebenton0]

Well, the person I am sending it to is also avidly doingl the low-carb thing, so the sweet potato would be out ;).  However, I wonder if pumpkin might work in place of the sweet potato?  That would be carb-friendly, and also add an interesting taste....

←

The pumpkin would accomplish much the same result. Even the color will be comparable. With the SP the dough becomes a beautiful light golden color.

Like this.

You don't taste the SP it just adds natural moisure, sweetness and enriches the dough. I'd go for a good pumpkin experiment. You have to test and taste, right?

Also I breezed right by your pizza pics from yesterday before they loaded. Good looking pie.

Crust: You could make the outer crust a bit thinner to be more consistent with the whole. That will help your finish. If you are increasing the thickness of the base don't increase the rim.

Less toppings, especially when considering the fat of the sausages and cheese combined with the salsa. Just a lot of moisture going on there. When I do really thin crust (my fav) I toss all the toppings together first, then distribute on the crust. Trick from very thin crust Chicago pizza maker. For some reason it works.

edited to add image and pizza comments

Edited December 13, 2004 by lovebenton0 (log)

[scott123]

Nullo, how is your bread 2-3 days after it's been made? Most of the fresh bread I've seen is fairly compromised after a day or so.

Polydextrose will melt/caramelize like sugar and makes an excellent glaze. It also ties up water (like sugar) so it will help the glaze from going bad.

Even with a polydextrose based glaze, I really don't see how this will make it overseas in a decent condition. Day old bread is just not that great and I'm sure low carb bread is no exception.

[NulloModo]

Judith - That roll looks marvelous. The golden flax meal already gives them a nice golden color inside, but a bit more rustic looking never hurts. I will definately try a batch with pumpkin soon, but as I have to ship to Japan before Christmas, I suppose I'd better come up with a foolproof recipe soon.

Scott -

The dinner rolls worked well unrefridgerated on subsequent days. They weren't quite as wonderful as when fresh out of the oven, but they were still very good. I ate my previous batch of cinnamon rolls over the past week (although I kept them refridgerated because of the glaze) and they were just as tasty on Friday as they were on Sunday when I baked them.

Day old regular flour based bread goes stale faster I assume, bit these things seem to hold onto moisture very well.

[NulloModo]

I am thinking of doing the pumpkin roll experiment tonight.

However, as cinnamon roll dough is suppposed to be rich, I am wondering, what woudl the effect of adding an egg to the dough be? Would it make it more dense/creamy? Would it aid/detract from rising? Should I try?

[scott123]

I'd go with the egg. Just remember, by adding egg, you're adding water, so you might need to decrease your water a bit or the dough might be too sticky to work with. You could also try just the yolk since the color/flavor/richness comes from that.

How long does it take to ship something to Japan?

I'd perfect the cinnamon buns with a polydextrose glaze and then let them sit out at room temp for however long shipping would take. Then eat them. If you survive without incident, make another batch the same way and ship it.

Edited December 14, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[lovebenton0]

For my cinnamon dough (told you it was rich ) I include 4 eggs for the eight + cups of flour. So you can go by that when thinking in proportion. Eggs will give you a more cake-like texture (softer/smoother) as well as pump it up some.

Think of the difference between say a French loaf and dinner rolls . . .

[NulloModo]

Results of pumpkin rolls:

The dough was richer, denser, and had a great texture. However, I think I spilled a little too much baking powder into this batch, as they had an 'off' and bitter flavor. I am also wondering if I should sprinkle some splenda on top of the rolled out dough in addition to cinnamon to give it a little sweetness inside.

The last batch I put a pat of butter on each roll before baking, this time I forgot to, and I think it is better with the pat of butter. I might try one more test batch tonight with a little less pumpkin, an egg, and splenda sprinkled in with the cinnamon. My polydextrose glaze was underwhelming... It carmelized well, but even with additional sweeteners added the flavor was pretty bland. I am assuming that cream cheese/butter wouldn't stand a chance on a several day shipment.

[lovebenton0]

Good news on the texture. You're probably right about BP, it will do that.

I must have missed it that you weren't adding (I assumed) Splenda with the cinnamon to top butter on the dough before rolling. Definitely try that!

Also, did you try any vanilla or maple, or nut extracts in the glaze to boost flavor? Mace is also a good flavor component with the cinnamon in the rolls. Adding cinnamon itself in the glaze really isn't as good as complementing it with another flavor.

[NulloModo]

I added bourbon to the glaze, but it didn't really work well. I think the bourbon flavor would have worked with a real sugar, but the carmelized polydextrose/splenda/stevia/ace-K blend was somewhat dissapointing, and not nearly as sweet as I expected.