whiskies - bourbon vs. canadian

[alphaiii]

Hey all,

I'm pretty new to anything whiskey (or whisky) related. I wanted some opinions on good brands for mixing.

I've used Crown Royal and Evan Williams 1783 10 yr in highballs. I like both but there are obvious differences in taste between Canadian and Bourbon, so I'd like to have one of each around for variety.

Crown is a bit overpriced so I was looking for some opinions on other Canadian whiskys - Seagrams VO & VO Gold, Canadian Club Classic and Reserve, ect.

As for the bourbon, I like the Evan 1783, but I'm not a big fan of the Evan William 7yr black label. Some other brands I was interested in were Rebel Yell and Elijah Craig 12 yr. Eagle Rare 10 yr caught my eye too, but that's because I like the bottle. I probably wouldn't buy that to mix with.

Other brands I've tried in the past are JD and Black Velvet. I don't like JD at all, and would buy the Evan 7yr first. I honestly can't remember what Black Velvet was like it was so long ago.

What brands, Canadian and/or bourbon do you use for mixing (with whatever)?

[montrachet]

To make juleps, etc. I use Maker's Mark but I am really hooked on the Evan Williams Single Barrel Vintage for drinking straight up. Whenever I travel to the U.S. I look for a bottle to bring back to Canada. We are very limited on our bourbon selection here but the Canadian rye selection is, as you might expect, quite substantial.

V.O. and C.C. are the standard with Crown Royal representing the higher end of ryes. I'm not an expert on rye whisky but most people tend to mix it with Coke or Ginger Ale (Canada Dry of course! )

[NulloModo]

Rebel Yell isn't a bad mixer, and if you can get it cheap, it makes a good choice. Despite the exciting name it is not the most exciting flavor though ;).

I agree with you about the Evan Williams 7 year, the saving grace is that it is $9 per 750ml here. I feel it is just a big too sweet, but when mixing, it isn't so bad either.

I picked up a bottle of Old Forester the other night, and I have to say it isn't bad at all. Would make a good mixer as well.

I am a big fan of the Wild Turkey 101 Bourbon though, nice complex flavor, solid kick, and not too pricey.

[alphaiii]

Rebel Yell isn't a bad mixer, and if you can get it cheap, it makes a good choice.  Despite the exciting name it is not the most exciting flavor though ;).

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rebel Yell is a "wheated" bourbon, right?

So when you says the flavor isn't too exciting, do you mean it's too soft in flavor (which would be expected from being wheated and only 80 proof), or do you mean it just doesn't taste all that good?

[slkinsey]

In re to bourbons: For mixing my "house pour" is Maker's Mark. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better combination of price and quality in a bourbon -- just good enough for sipping, excellent for mixing. Jim Beam Black is also a very good and reasonably priced bourbon if you want to go in the rye direction instead of the wheat direction.

In re to blended American or Canadian: In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "sipping blended American or Canadian whiskey." To me, these are mixing spirits only. With that in mind, you could taste Seagram's 7 for American, and Seagram's VO or Canadian Club Classic for Canadian. Personally, I'd rather use Makers than any of these, though.

[alphaiii]

In re to bourbons:  For mixing my "house pour" is Maker's Mark.  I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better combination of price and quality in a bourbon -- just good enough for sipping, excellent for mixing.  Jim Beam Black is also a very good and reasonably priced bourbon if you want to go in the rye direction instead of the wheat direction.

In re to blended American or Canadian: In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "sipping blended American or Canadian whiskey."  To me, these are mixing spirits only.  With that in mind, you could taste Seagram's 7 for American, and Seagram's VO or Canadian Club Classic for Canadian.  Personally, I'd rather use Makers than any of these, though.

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I'll have to try and find a 50mL of Maker's Mark and give it a try. I'm trying to find a bourbon a little friendlier on the wallet though. Keep in mind I only want if for mixing. Then again, that could change.

As for the Canadian, do you think the VO Gold or CC Reserve warrant the extra few bucks over the regular VO and CC Classic? Like I said, I do like Crown but the general concensus is that it's overpriced. So I was looking for a lower priced alternative that is comparable/better in quality and taste.

[NulloModo]

Actually, I would say the Rebel Yell has a soft flavor, similar to Maker's Mark, just not as good.

Maker's Mark is a nice reasonably priced bourbon, but isn't really to my tastes anymore for sipping, I am really starting to lean more towards those with more bite to the taste.

[DrinkBoy]

...We are very limited on our bourbon selection here but the Canadian rye selection is, as you might expect, quite substantial...

It's been ages since I've been up to Canada (no excuses however, since I live in Seattle!), do the liquor stores really categorize Canadian Whisky as "Rye"?

Here in America, for an American Whiskey to be labled as "Rye" it has to have at least 51% rye in it's recipe... I think there are only one or two Canadian Whiskies that have anywhere near that amount, most use very little actual rye in their recipes.

Perhaps it shouldn't, but it always bugs me when a bartender asks me if I'd like my Manhattan made with Rye, they always reach for a Canadian Whisky, the flavor difference between that, and a true American Rye is substantial.

It is my understanding that part of the reason that people refer to Canadian Whisky as "Rye" is that prior to prohibition (American) Rye Whiskey was the most common/popular version, but when prohibition hit, that clearly dried up the supply. Canadian Whisky then stepped in to take it's place, and so when somebody ordered a "Rye"... they got Canadian instead. And this name switch just survived even after prohibition when American Rye was finally available again. Although it never did come back into the same level of production as it once did. Most (if not all?) of the rye producers were on the east coast, and during prohibition their distilleries were not only closed down, but converted to other purposes. Many of the Bourbon distilleries however were simply closed down, and were able to be re-opened without too much trouble. Thus Bourbon became the predominant American Whiskey post-prohibition.

-Robert

[jbewley]

Here in America, for an American Whiskey to be labled as "Rye" it has to have at least 51% rye in it's recipe... I think there are only one or two Canadian Whiskies that have anywhere near that amount, most use very little actual rye in their recipes.

I know. Whenever I go to Canada, I never quite get used to everyone ordering "coke and rye" or "rye and ginger", then watching the bartender pour CC or Crown into a glass. In my book, Old Grand Dad bourbon is more rye-ish than either of those.

What's even stranger to me is the whole Canadian "It's illegal to serve a double in anything other than a double glass" thing that I've never quite understood.

What frustrates me is the lack of a decent way to explain the difference to bartenders in under three minutes without just specifying brand ("I'll have an Overholt Manhattan".) If I say, "American Rye", I seem to get Seagrams 7. If I say "Rye", I get Canadian Club. If I say, "I'd like a by-God authentic, more than 51% rye-mashbill American Rye Whiskey", they ask me if I'm from Oklahoma, and I'm forced to admit, "Yes, I am." :)

As to the original question, Seagrams VO seems to be a great Canadian for the buck. It really has some rye in it , and it's great as a mixer.. I actually like it better than the VO Gold.

And if you're doing the whole rye and ginger / hiball thing, you owe it to yourself to try out some real American rye whiskey with ginger ale. Old Overholt is great as a mixer (avoid the Jim Beam Rye if you can find Overholt), and Wild Turkey Rye is incredible for the money. Overholt typically runs $8-12 a fifth in the US, with Wild Turkey Rye running $16-20ish.

[alphaiii]

As to the original question, Seagrams VO seems to be a great Canadian for the buck. It really has some rye in it , and it's great as a mixer..  I actually like it better than the VO Gold. 

And if you're doing the whole rye and ginger / hiball thing, you owe it to yourself to try out some real American rye whiskey with ginger ale.  Old Overholt is great as a mixer (avoid the Jim Beam Rye if you can find Overholt), and Wild Turkey Rye is incredible for the money.  Overholt typically runs $8-12 a fifth in the US, with Wild Turkey Rye running $16-20ish.

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I picked up some 50ml bottles today: Crown Royal, Seagram's VO, and Canadian Club (didn't find a mini Maker's). I think I liked the CC best, but I wasn't really thrilled with any of them. I thought I liked Crown, but after having bourban instead the Canadian whiskies didn't seem all that flavorful and seemed to have more alcohol presence (although my basis of comparison is a 10yr bourbon).

I'd rather mix the Evan 1783 with ginger ale than any of the Canadian whiskies.

As for rye, I've never had it before. I may have to give it a try, since the Old Overholt is so reasonably priced. What should I expect from rye that I won't find in bourbon?

[DrinkBoy]

As for rye, I've never had it before.  I may have to give it a try, since the Old Overholt is so reasonably priced.  What should I expect from rye that I won't find in bourbon?

Think of it this way... compare corn bread to rye bread... ok, that's probably a little too simplistic :->

Corn is the 51% ingredient in Bourbon, and if you've ever had freshly distilled 'bourbon' (ie. crystal clear, before being aged) it has a very distinctive corn flavor to it. Quite amazing stuff, really.

I've never had freshly distilled 'rye', but I could imagine that it would have a flavor very reminicent of rye bread.

So the basic difference will normally be that Bourbon will have a slightly sweeter note, while Rye will be slightly spicier. Of course even from one bourbon to another there are significant differences, so it can get difficult to compare these two whiskies accurately in generalities.

-Robert

[slkinsey]

I picked up some 50ml bottles today:  Crown Royal, Seagram's VO, and Canadian Club (didn't find a mini Maker's).  I think I liked the CC best, but I wasn't really thrilled with any of them.  I thought I liked Crown, but after having bourbon instead the Canadian whiskies didn't seem all that flavorful and seemed to have more alcohol presence (although my basis of comparison is a 10yr bourbon).

See? That's what I'm saying.

I would have a hard time making any justification for including Canadian blended whiskey in my liquor cabinet.

[Heikki]

So the basic difference will normally be that Bourbon will have a slightly sweeter note, while Rye will be slightly spicier. Of course even from one bourbon to another there are significant differences, so it can get difficult to compare these two whiskies accurately in generalities.

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I second that. So far I have tasted the following rye whiskeys: Jim Beam, Old Overholt, Rittenhouse (100 proof) and Van Winkle. One thing I noticed is that rye whiskey has a lot in common with bourbon and very little common with rye products such as rye bread. Rye bread is very common in this country, but I would not say rye whiskey brings rye bread in mind. I think I would be able to pick rye from scotch or irish whiskey in blind tasting (some rums being much harder), but correctly identifying rye from bourbon would be very, very hard in blind tasting. When I first tasted rye, I was surprised how similar it was to bourbon. I was expecting a more pronounced rye taste (what ever that might be). The spice in rye vs sweetness in bourbon sounds familiar from the limited comparing I have done this far.

About the 51% rule: As a theoretical standpoint, is it possible to have 51%/49% rye/corn rye whiskey and 51%/49% corn/rye bourbon? The real grain mixtures are probably not that simple, but somehow it feels like rye and bourbon could sometimes be fairly close relatives.

Heikki Vatiainen

[alphaiii]

So the basic difference will normally be that Bourbon will have a slightly sweeter note, while Rye will be slightly spicier. Of course even from one bourbon to another there are significant differences, so it can get difficult to compare these two whiskies accurately in generalities.

-Robert

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Well I'll just have to try some rye then and see how I like it. I may like the spiciness a little better when mixing with something already sweet, like ginger ale.

[slkinsey]

About the 51% rule: As a theoretical standpoint, is it possible to have 51%/49% rye/corn rye whiskey and 51%/49% corn/rye bourbon?

Yep. This is entirely possible.

I wonder what the economics are with respect to rye and corn -- which one is less expensive.

Interesting note: my mother and I were talking recently about booze, and she mentioned an interesting piece of data that she had uncovered doing research for a class she's teaching. Back before Prohibition (most likely we're talking about data from the late 19th century) when this country was producing an overabundance of corn, most of the surplus was eventually turned into corn whiskey. American adults drank something like 1.5 quarts of corn whiskey a day on average! Then Prohibition happened. After Prohibition and the War had passed, eventually we found ourselves in a situation where once again we were producing an overabundance of corn. Only this time, instead of turning the surplus corn into whiskey, we've taken to turning it into high fructose corn syrup. Personally, I think we were better off the other way around.

[CtznCane]

I've never cared much for blended whiskey's and frankly still don't understand what they are per se. I've tinkered around with different bourbons for mixed drinks and more importantly cooking (as I cook with bourbon on a regular basis) and feel that $15+ dollars a fifth (750 ml actaullly nowadays) is too steep a price. My target goal to keep on hand is $15-20 for a 1.75 litre bottle.

So far, over the past 3 years I've used Jim Beam, Early Times, Ancient Age, & Old Crow for cooking and mixed drinks. Mainly cooking. Of these 4, the ones I've been most pleaseed with are Old Crow & the Early Times. Both of these I can find at BevMo (for the Old Crow) or Costco and other stores for the Early Times. The cost here in NorCal is about 14 dollars for a 1.75 litre bottle. To me that seems real reasonable for a mixing bourbon. Both provide a good depth of flavor, though the Old Crow is a bit softer and a touch sweeter. Of the 2 I prefer the Old Crow. Cooking wise the flavor comes through without being overpowering. The Ancient Age was definitely harsher and while okay by me, was a little too overwhelming at times. The JIm Beam wasn't bad but wasn't too good either, sort of middle of the road. For drinking alone I might choose the Early TImes.

For a Rye whiskey, I always try to keep Old Overholt on hand. I haven't had too many Rye's but this one is not expensive yet packs a nice flavor. Very smoothe.

To put this into some perspective, my regular bourbon of choice is George DIckel The 12 year old or the 8. Perhaps, since these are both sour mash, that is why I preferred the Old Crow as well.

[BlackHive]

Agreeing with the above post: Old Crow. Cheap and not bad at all. I'd expect it to be perfect for mixing where you don't want to waste a lot of good spirit OR money.

[2roost]

Bourbon - Old GrandDad Straight should be $10-15, very good straight or mixed. I can't get it in B.C. but always pick up a couple when I visit California - currently $9.99 for a 750ml at BevMo.

Canadian - Crown Royal or if you want to spend a bit more try Forty Creek Barrel Select (around $20-25) neither of these are Rye but they represent excellent examples of "Canadian" whisky.

[Rob Simmon]

One thing I noticed is that rye whiskey has a lot in common with bourbon and very little common with rye products such as rye bread.  Rye bread is very common in this country, but I would not say rye whiskey brings rye bread in mind.

That's because the flavor of rye bread is ... caraway. Some brands of aquavit are flavored with caraway, as is kümmel.

The only rye whiskey I've ever had is Sazerac, which is out-of-this-world. Woodford is one of my favorite bourbons for Manhattans, followed by Maker's Mark, and the slightly cheaper Bulleit. I'm not a big fan of Eagle Rare, Knob Creek, Wild Turkey, or Basil Hayden's. (Perhaps I just prefer sweeter brands.) In a stilleto [bourbon, amaretto, and lime juice (it works, really)] I like Wathen's. There's still a lot of interesting bottles out there I haven't gotten a chance to try.

Of course, none of this is very helpful in picking a <em>cheap</em> bourbon—Bulleit is the least expensive, running about $13/750 ml on sale at Montgomery County (MD) stores.

[oneidaone]

Well Maker's Mark for sure. Let's not overlook Wild Turkey, for everyday purposes and to

relieve aches and pains instead of Celebrex and the like - nothing like 101. In fact Wild Turkey 101 has been the house favorite since college days at Northwestern. Used to go down to Howard Street where booze was legal (Evanston was 'dry' in those days) and drink

lots of it at the Tally Ho pub where a couple times a year Wild Turkey would sponsor a party

of Thanksgiving wherein they had drink specials (like 75 cents and a dollar) for drinks of 101 and give away lots of promotional prizes. They'd cover the pool tables with boards and

tablecloths and serve complete turkey dinners with all the fixin's all night long. Those were

the days........In any case we also like Knob Creek and Smith Woodhouse - whoops I think

that's the port...........not yet 2005 here yet but the Hangar One Raspberry is kicking in to

confuse issues..............So we often mix the Wild Turkey 101 with ginger ale, an extremely

pleasing concoction as it has been for at least 25 years if not longer. A hui ho and Hauoli

Makahiki Hou for 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[birder53]

The only rye whiskey I've ever had is Sazerac, which is out-of-this-world. Woodford is one of my favorite bourbons for Manhattans, followed by Maker's Mark, and the slightly cheaper Bulleit. I'm not a big fan of Eagle Rare, Knob Creek, Wild Turkey, or Basil Hayden's. (Perhaps I just prefer sweeter brands.) In a stilleto [bourbon, amaretto, and lime juice (it works, really)] I like Wathen's. There's still a lot of interesting bottles out there I haven't gotten a chance to try.

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I really like a Stilleto! Great combination of flavors here. We're using Makers Mark for our mixed drinks. We received a bottle of Blantons as a gift last week. After looking up some bourbon threadsf here I informed my husband that this was not meant to be used as a mixer. We tried a bit straight up and then on the rocks. Very nice. I guess you could use it for mixing, but I wouldn't go any further than a Manhattan. A drink like the Stilleto would be a waste IMHO for Blantons.

[mzungu]

First off, as a West Coast CDN growing up in Vancouver, CC is the house whiskey and generally used as a bare basic in the mixed drinks. Most guys with discerning tastes (and my bartending instructor) would look at it the way an Aussie feels about Foster's - only newbies and tourists drink the shit....

That being said, Crown Royal is better but not by much either when you compare to good whiskeys. Haven't been able to try out the higher end stuff but a good friend of mine swears by the aged CR.

So... when you're up in Van City and want to enjoy a "local" drink, order the Crown and Coke.... I think that impressed the ladies when I was, what, 21?

LOL

PS Never heard about the "Stilletto" - can't wait to try it out....

[J_Ozzy]

To be fair, there are some canadian "rye" whiskies made to, or above, the american definition of the spirit. A couple are 100% rye distillates.

My, (incomplete) list:

Alberta Premium

Alberta Springs

Tangle Ridge

Silk Tassel

Highwood

Centenial Limited Edition

I've lived in canada my entire life, and I agree with mzungu that CC is just basic well liquor (although there is an 18 yr Japanese export IIRC).

[paul mitchell]

All this talk about Crown Royal being the finest Canadian Whiskey - come on - try Century Distilling's 21 year - it's about $45 for a 700ml - great stuff.

[eje]

What brands, Canadian and/or bourbon do you use for mixing (with whatever)?

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The "Blended" in the term "Blended Whiskey" refers to the manufacturing process not to the mix of corn or rye.

In "Blended" whiskies like Canadian Club, the distillate is blended (perhaps diluted is a better word) with grain neutral spirits before being aged.

With "Straight" whiskies, like American Bourbon or Rye, the whiskey is distilled, aged and then diluted with water to the appropriate strength. Nothing should be in "straight" whiskey except what came out of the still and water.

Erik

Edited February 21, 2005 by eje (log)