Le Creuset

[bethesdabakers]

Apart from a brief Danish Pastry phase after he retired my Dads only brush with gastronomy was bombing the Le Creuset factory in WWII. He was a navigator/gunner flying Lancasters. I hope his navigation skills were better than his baking.

 

Mick

[boilsover]

That pot certainly was not babied.

 

Here's my Le Creuset pot that I purchased around 1975-1978...

Color me cynical.  Judging by appearance of the lining, I think either it was babied or didn't get a lot of use.  What is the exterior color?

 

I have some Descoware and Cousances that are probably 1960s that were trophy pieces of my mom's.  It's been at a summer cabin since it was new.  It looked good until it was given regular use--just like Le Creuset.  By dint of its dark enamel, Staub looks better longer, but basically, all this stuff is coated with a thin layer of brittle glass.

Edited July 22, 2015 by boilsover (log)

[boilsover]

I don't think that makes it mediocre, it simply makes it not the best choice for how you cook.

 

I no longer have Le Creuset because I am an idiot and did not take reasonable care of it. I used to be exrtremely hard on my cookware. I regret that. In my younger years I had no idea that Le Creuset was anything more than another brand. I get it now.

Well, I gave several examples.  Let me give a prep-specific one:  caramelizing onions.  If you attempt to do this on the stovetop and the hob is not in the 90th percentile or above in terms of evenness, you are practically guaranteed to scorch the onions dead center.  Out of sheer masochistic curiosity, I once tried to follow Tom Keller's 5-hour prep in a Le Creuset dutch oven.  Not only did the onions scorch on the lowest possible gas setting, the constant stirring required to prevent more scorching basically wore the poor onions to paste.

 

If all you do in ECI is oven work, and you don't mind the fat running through the jus, it works OK.  An ECI  skillet that is not perfectly matched to its hob is a recipe for disaster.  Sauces in it become so cumbersome and uncertain, they're not worth making.   Anything the least bit viscous must be watched like an inmate in SuperMax.  To paraphrase Nancy Kerrigan:  Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Edited July 22, 2015 by boilsover (log)

[Shel_B]

Color me cynical.  Judging by appearance of the lining, I think either it was babied or didn't get a lot of use.  What's the color?

 

I take care of my things, very good care.  As I said, the pot spent years in my garage gathering dust and used for storing assorted items.  IMO, that's not babying ... you say that as if it's unacceptable to take care of one's tools. 

 

Frankly, I don't care if you're colored cynical ... that's who and how you are.  The pot is colored white, and that's how it is.

[Shel_B]

Well, I gave several examples.  Let me give a prep-specific one:  caramelizing onions.  If you attempt to do this on the stovetop and the hob is not in the 90th percentile or above in terms of evenness, you are practically guaranteed to scorch the onions dead center.  Out of sheer masochistic curiosity, I once tried to follow Tom Keller's 5-hour prep in a Le Creuset dutch oven.  Not only did the onions scorch on the lowest possible gas setting, the constant stirring required to prevent more scorching basically wore the poor onions to paste.

 

 

Never had that problem, and I've caramelized lots of onions over the years, using both the Le Creuset (my other one, not the one pictured above), All-Clad stainless steel skillets and sauté pan.  I don't know what Tom Keller's technique is, so I can't speak to that, but my caramelized onions are done in a very traditional way.  I'd be happy to share the technique with you.

 

ETA:  I checked out Keller's technique, and it's very similar to mine. 

 

Here's a pic of the onions towards the end of the cooking cycle in a Le Creuset.  I don't see any scorching, or pasty looking onions.

 

Perhaps you need to hone your technique, or maybe enameled cast iron is just not your thing.  Some people have difficulty with certain cookware for a variety of reasons.  For example, a lot of people have difficulty cooking with stainless steel.  Click here ... you're not alone in your frustration.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Shel_B (log)

[boilsover]

As I said, the pot spent years in my garage gathering dust and used for storing assorted items.  IMO, that's not babying...

 

It's not?

[pbear]

... fat running through the jus ...

 

What does this mean?  You've mentioned it twice.

[boilsover]

What does this mean?  You've mentioned it twice.

Chef James Peterson mentions it several times in his classic "Sauces" if you don't believe me.  It means the fat and the jus tend to run together on enamel, and are not so easily separated.

[boilsover]

 

Perhaps you need to hone your technique, or maybe enameled cast iron is just not your thing..

Thanks for your advice, but my problem with onions (and many other things on cast iron) was the terrible unevenness, hotspotting and general lack of responsiveness that is inherent in cast iron, not my technique.  You can solve the unevenness issue with a solid-top or placque, but with no other advantage over using a better construction, why would anyone?

 

If you have a special gentle technique for stirring for hours without trashing the onions in cast iron, I'm all ears.  Otherwise, all you've recommended is a better hob.

[gfweb]

Enameled cast iron has a certain attraction. Lots of aesthetic but not much utility.  You can learn to work with anything.

 

 

I'd rather serve in it than cook in it.

[Shel_B]

If you have a special gentle technique for stirring for hours without trashing the onions in cast iron, I'm all ears.  Otherwise, all you've recommended is a better hob.

 

Where are you located?  I checked your profile and see that you're one of the completely anonymous people in this group.  If you're nearby, I invite you to my kitchen to make caramelized onions in a Le Creuset oven and, if you have the time, in a stainless steel sauté pan.

 

Edited July 22, 2015 by Shel_B (log)

[Shel_B]

Enameled cast iron has a certain attraction. Lots of aesthetic but not much utility.  You can learn to work with anything.

 

 

I'd rather serve in it than cook in it.

 

So, what do you use instead of enameled cast iron, especially in a Dutch oven configuration, which is what much of this conversation is about?  What have you learned to work with?

 

How do you account for the fact that so many people use enameled cast iron ovens (Le Creuset and other brands) if they don't have much utility?  Speaking for my own small circle of friends who cook, they all use such a product, both in the oven and on the cooktop.  What do you suggest they use instead?

[pbear]

Well, the obvious alternative is tri-ply stainless steel, which weighs half as much as cast iron (or less).  And there are others.

[boilsover]

Boilsover... why not use your Le Creuset on an induction hob??

 

Aw, I'm flattered you remember.

 

Just in case you were serious, though, I have tried it.  Pretty much got the same results Dave Arnold documented here on Cooking Issues: http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/02/16/heavy-metal-the-science-of-cast-iron-cooking/

Edited July 24, 2015 by boilsover (log)

[Shel_B]

Aw, I'm flattered you remember.

 

Just in case you were serious, though, I have tried it.  Pretty much got the same results Dave Arnold documented here on Cooking Issues: http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/02/16/heavy-metal-the-science-of-cast-iron-cooking/

 

This is bullshit ... sorry.  The pan is not a Le Creuset (which is what this discussion is about), and the pictures aren't even yours. Plus, there's no real cooking going on here, just flour scattered over the bottom of a pan.  IOW, it's not what or how anyone would cook in the real world.

 

And, after looking through the article you copied from, I'm inclined to think your pronouncements in previous posts were little more than repeating what you've read elsewhere - taking things out of context - rather than from your own experience and personal testing.  Now you can color me "cynical".

 

In the article from Dave Arnold that you copied from, Arnold says,

 

"cast iron’s characteristic properties make it an excellent cookware choice in the modern kitchen. Corn bread made the

classic way, in a pre-heated cast iron skillet, highlights cast iron’s cooking advantages: its temperature delivery power

generates a good crust, and its temperature-regulating power provides even, constant heat – leveling out the temperature

variations of your oven."

 

Even when he talks about the uneven heating that occurs with cast iron, his remarks are tempered, for example (and emphasis is mine):

 

"If you heat the center of a cast iron pan you will find that the heat travels slowly towards the pan’s edge, with a significant

temperature gradient between the center and the edge. The pan will heat very unevenly, because cast iron is a relatively

poor heat conductor compared to materials like aluminum and copper. An aluminum pan will heat more evenly because

heat travels quickly across aluminum. Because of poor heat conduction, undersized burners are incompatible with cast iron

cooking. The edges of a large cast iron pan will never get hot on a tiny burner. On properly sized burners you can minimize

hot spots by heating slowly ..."

 

What he's saying is that the pan should be matched to the burner size, something that is recommended for all types of cookware, not just cast iron.  Maybe that's why my caramelized onions turn out better than yours, as I always match burner size to pan size.  He also seems to be suggesting that, because heat travels slowly in cast iron, preheating the pan may be a good idea. In fact, many recipes and techniques I've read in which cast iron is used for the cooking vessel, say right up front to preheat the vessel. Both in the oven and on the stovetop.

 

Further, flour alone will burn quickly, but if one was making a roux, or a soup or a stew, longer cooking times would be used and there would be other ingredients, such as the liquid, that will allow the heat, even from a smaller burner, to spread slowly and evenly throughout the pan.  Anyway, that's been my experience.

 

So, just as with other cooking material, proper technique is important.  I've said what I had to say, and am finished with this discussion.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Shel_B (log)

[FauxPas]

Just in case you were serious, though, I have tried it.  Pretty much got the same results Dave Arnold documented here on Cooking Issues: http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/02/16/heavy-metal-the-science-of-cast-iron-cooking/

 

As to the induction burner, in the comments Dave Arnold mentions that they did the test on a "cheapie Mr Induction" countertop induction unit. It's a 1650W countertop unit with limited power control and a small burner size. And again:

 

The induction burner's element is too small. Even a good conductor can't make up for a burner that is too small.

 

I don't know what we are being told other than it is best to match pan to element size. And as Shel_B says, pretty much everyone already knows that. 

 

Edited to clean up formatting. 

Edited July 24, 2015 by FauxPas (log)

[boilsover]

The pan is not a Le Creuset (which is what this discussion is about), and the pictures aren't even yours.

 

***

 

And, after looking through the article you copied from, I'm inclined to think your pronouncements in previous posts were little more than repeating what you've read elsewhere.

 

***

 

In the article from Dave Arnold that you copied from, Arnold says,

 

"cast iron’s characteristic properties make it an excellent cookware choice in the modern kitchen. Corn bread made the

classic way, in a pre-heated cast iron skillet, highlights cast iron’s cooking advantages: its temperature delivery power

generates a good crust, and its temperature-regulating power provides even, constant heat – leveling out the temperature

variations of your oven."

 

 

You're funny.

 

(1)  Your implication that enameling cast iron (or Le Creuset in particular) somehow changes the thermal properties of cast iron is preposterous.

 

(2)  Of course Dave Arnold's photos are his and not mine.  Do you seriously doubt they're real?  Such "scorchprints" are merely an easy, graphical way for anyone to see hotspotting and unevenness (in this case the ring-of-fire effect of an induction coil)  You can do the same thing with an IR gun, thermography camera or even a circle of parchment.  Since you berate me for citing others' work, here are 4 of MY photos from a few years back, contrasting the central hotspot of cast iron on gas with more even aluminum on gas.  Photo 1 is cast iron starting from ambient.  Photo 2 is cast iron preheated in an oven.  Photo 3 is aluminum starting from ambient.  Photo 4 is aluminum preheated.  Same sized pans, same hob, same settings, same time-over-heat.  Is this all bullshit, too? Did NASA fake the moon landings?  BTW, my photos were taken on a big pro grade open triple-ring burner; builder's grade closed single-ring will look like Dave's photos without the donut hole.

 

(3)  Your epistemology is bizarre.  Do you not rely on others' contributions to human knowledge in your own life?   Is all your knowledge from ideas original to you?  BTW, you have zero idea how accomplished I am in the kitchen, so drop the crap about teaching me to caramelize onions.

 

(4)  Dave and I don't agree on everything.  Cornbread baked in a preheated CI pan *is* a very good thing indeed, but the two pluses he attributes to it ("temperature delivery power" and "temperature-regulating power" in an uneven oven) apply to any thick preheated pans in an oven.  And a hob doesn't need to be "tiny" to show hotspotting with cast iron, as my photos prove.

 

(5)  Further regarding hob matching... (a) The vast majority of home hobs are 8" or smaller.  IF your hob is very even, IF you never cook in bottoms larger than 8", and IF you cook thin liquids where convection currents can distribute the heat, you can mitigate cast iron's dismal thermal properties by perfectly matching sizes. These are successes in spite of cast iron, not because of it.   Ever try Le Creuset's 15" skillet or their big braiser on a home hob?  You must Jiffy Pop to cook any solid foods evenly.  (b)  My thick 14" copper rondeau is within a few degrees of being dead even on an 8" hob, and is acceptably even on a 6".  My results with the Keller onion prep were obtained in a Le Creuset 3.5Q dutch oven on the lowest possible gas setting (as in: it will blow out if someone opens a door).  Its 8" bottom was perfectly matched to my hob at the time.

 

  We're each entitled to our opinions, but not to our own facts.

 

Cheers

Edited July 24, 2015 by boilsover (log)

[Dave W]

I'm tempted to step in to defend ECI cookware vehemently but quite frankly I have a couple pieces of it that I will profess love for but in practice I very rarely bust them out to use.

Fond development is great on enamel. So for stews I like using it if I have the luxury of and patience for cooking a stew for hours instead of for 45 minutes in the pressure cooker.

For baking bread boules I prefer my naked cast iron Dutch oven as the enamel tends to stick.

The le creuset enamel performs better than lesser brands I own. And the le creuset warranty is wonderful to have. But I can't imagine needing to send my lodge Dutch oven in for warranty service.

On scorching, i use open burners and it doesn't seem to be an issue for me.

[boilsover]

The le creuset enamel performs better than lesser brands I own.

 

Hi, Dave:

 

  I'm really not picking a fight here.  Why do you say that?

 

  The reason I ask is that, if you're referring to the longevity, chip and stain resistance, etc., of the enamels themselves, I agree with you.  But if not, what performance advantage do you see?

 

  I still have some 1960s Cousances and Descoware enameled iron, and with the exception of some inconsequential crazing, the enamels are every bit as good as those on my more recent LC and Staub pieces.

 

Cheers

[Dave W]

Yes the enamels are more durable and easier to clean. Compared to Mario Batali brand Dutch oven.

[CantCookStillTry]

I'm not a flower person. Today I am thankful for that. My husband had this delivered to my work 🙂😁. 

26cm Satin Black. 

 

Now to work out what he has done.... 

 

[kayb]

NICE!

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 4:48 AM, CantCookStillTry said:

I'm not a flower person. Today I am thankful for that. My husband had this delivered to my work 🙂😁. 

26cm Satin Black. 

 

Now to work out what he has done.... 

 

 

I am blessed with a battery of Le Creuset but I envy you your 26.  Last night I made a braise*.  The 24 was just too small and the 28 was just too large.

 

Please let us see your results!

 

 

* https://forums.egullet.org/topic/157787-dinner-2019/?do=findComment&comment=2215518

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

P.S. Food tastes better in Volcanique.

 

[CantCookStillTry]

8 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

P.S. Food tastes better in Volcanique.

 

 

I don't have the heart to tell him kitchenware is the one place I adore colour. My wardrobe & coffee may be as black as my soul but... 😁

When I called him to thank he said " The one in the link you sent me last year was orange but that didn't seem like you.." 🤦‍♀️

 

Ps: Scared to use. Still in box.