Why So Few Women Are Great Chefs ...

[Wendy DeBord]

I do not agree with the reasoning that women want more balance and don't want to sacrifice relationships or maternity for a career, and I especially have a problem with the idea that women don't feel the need to be achievers in public and are happy to pursue their work quietly. This is not something unique to women. Why would we internalize the arguments against women going into the kitchen in this way? To me, this just supports the opposition.

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For myself, as I've aged I've grown thru several mind sets. When I began I was more idealistic, very much a feminist when it came to work and home. I spent years and years working hard long hours with great passion. In time I began to miss what everyone else was experiencing personally. I know many male chefs who feel the same way: whom miss and want a family or spouse. This isn't something unique to women. It's a price we all pay in this career. The fact that some top female chefs have families doesn't tell the whole story. Are they the working poor female chef or chefs with incomes to pay for domestic help? Or perhaps they have extended families.........but I promise you those female chefs sited for being top chefs are getting some additional help balancing their work and personal life! There will always be a few people that can over come and rise to the top (But what personal sacrifices were required of their families?). This isn't something to be debated, it's a fact.

It's also a fact that this career is VERY physically demanding. We (females) have to act tough and literally carry our weight as the men do. Some of us can, some of us can't literally. This is something to be openly addressed. To not accept it as an issue is to pretend it doesn't exist.

There isn't an opposition. It isn't the male chefs against the female chefs!!

As to working quitely, there isn't a support system in place to support these women. If you talk about certain issues your crying and ridiculed for bringing up personal issues. But when a large group of people face the same issues it isn't just a personal issue. There are facts, walls that do exist. It's very hard to find a stay home husband in todays society. Twenty years ago it was impossible. The career of being a Chef has JUST become a respected career with the onsurge of foodtv. Once upon a time just a few years ago you were less respected if you were a chef then a lawyer or an accountant because being a chef wasn't a "professional" career.

20 years ago this industry was so sexist there weren't glass ceilings, no they were painted neon pink. Don't be nieve to think that it still doesn't exist. There are still many men who don't want to work for a women. 20 or 30 years ago there were plenty of women who wanted to reach great chef status! They've paved the road that women today walk down! Change takes time and there were multiple roads that needed to be paved for the future in and out of work.

As LKL Chu eluded it IS different for women in these top kitchens (I'll add it is the same in less then top kitchens). Sometimes better, sometimes worse. When we reach EQUAL and our sex isn't even noticed then more females will be TOP chefs.

[emilymarie]

For myself, as I've aged I've grown thru several mind sets. When I began I was more idealistic, very much a feminist when it came to work and home. I spent years and years working hard long hours with great passion. In time I began to miss what everyone else was experiencing personally. I know many male chefs who feel the same way: whom miss and want a family or spouse. This isn't something unique to women. It's a price we all pay in this career. The fact that some top female chefs have families doesn't tell the whole story. Are they the working poor female chef or chefs with incomes to pay for domestic help? Or perhaps they have extended families.........but I promise you those female chefs sited for being top chefs are getting some additional help balancing their work and personal life! There will always be a few people that can over come and rise to the top (But what personal sacrifices were required of their families?). This isn't something to be debated, it's a fact.

It's also a fact that this career is VERY physically demanding. We (females) have to act tough and literally carry our weight as the men do. Some of us can, some of us can't literally. This is something to be openly addressed. To not accept it as an issue is to pretend it doesn't exist.

There isn't an opposition. It isn't the male chefs against the female chefs!!

As to working quitely, there isn't a support system in place to support these women. If you talk about certain issues your crying and ridiculed for bringing up personal issues. But when a large group of people face the same issues it isn't just a personal issue. There are facts, walls that do exist. It's very hard to find a stay home husband in todays society. Twenty years ago it was impossible. The career of being a Chef has JUST become a respected career with the onsurge of foodtv. Once upon a time just a few years ago you were less respected if you were a chef then a lawyer or an accountant because being a chef wasn't a "professional" career.

20 years ago this industry was so sexist there weren't glass ceilings, no they were painted neon pink. Don't be nieve to think that it still doesn't exist. There are still many men who don't want to work for a women. 20 or 30 years ago there were plenty of women who wanted to reach great chef status! They've paved the road that women today walk down! Change takes time and there were multiple roads that needed to be paved for the future in and out of work.

As LKL Chu eluded it IS different for women in these top kitchens (I'll add it is the same in less then top kitchens). Sometimes better, sometimes worse. When we reach EQUAL and our sex isn't even noticed then more females will be TOP chefs.

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When I spoke of opposition I did not mean to imply male chefs versus female chefs specifically. I was referring to the more general (maybe still prevailing) idea that women aren't suited to work in top kitchens, that we're not strong enough, etc. and will not want to make sacrifices necessary to build a career.

And though I would say that I'm still very "green" in terms of experience, I do realize that there is a glass ceiling and that some men will resist my desires to climb to the top of the field--and some may not even take me seriously. I know I will have to work harder and maybe longer, that I may be held up to higher standards or more criticism and that if I whine I'll hear jokes about "that time of the month." But if I, now, at the very beginning of my career, give into all of the negativity and challenges, how will I ever succeed? It is just the way that I, personally, function. Before I go into this all, I need to understand what I'll face but push it to the back of my mind and just go forward.

I know it's very physical work--I didn't think that I hadn't accepted this as a fact. If I didn't address it, I apologize. I've learned this in the time I've already spent in a kitchen. I do happen to be quite strong, and I know I have to hold my own. I know there will probably be things that I can't lift--maybe a 75 lb bag of flour, who knows?

And as to the discussion of sacrifices, maybe, as you say, we should talk more generally about the sacrifices that both men and women need to make in order to work in this field. As you also say--you know many men who miss or want a family/spouse. I objected to the idea that many women won't make it to the top because they will start to want a family. It was really the generalization I objected to most. I think that making sacrifices is something anyone who really wants to be successful in their career needs to make. You put off having kids or you find people to babysit or you are lucky enough to have a partner--husband or wife--who doesn't work insane hours and can take care of the kids.

I think, Sinclair, that I still look at this whole debate as a bit of a feminist. I am a year and a half out of college, and a women's college at that. I saw there women who had made it to the top of their field, who worked very hard and who had dedicated their lives to their work. I think it is the memory of some of these women who inspire me to this day and have made me so pig-headed.

[Louisa Chu]

Thanks very much. Maybe I'm misunderstanding - but I want to make clear that I'm still just a cook working my way up. I just finished working at El Bulli - a week ago. Ducasse was just last year. True I was the chef/owner of my own catering company but that was nothing like this. But I don't want to personally intrude on this greater issue - for more info on me please click on the Movable Feast link below.

Two things - the physical strength and family problems. Strength can be a problem - for men and women. I find a way - or usually find the way that someone else has already found. I mean for chrissake the ancients built the pyramids, yes? And family - or relationships. Harder for women working in the kitchen - or any other profession that takes you away - physically, emotionally. Period.

[arielle]

20 years ago this industry was so sexist there weren't glass ceilings, no they were painted neon pink. Don't be nieve to think that it still doesn't exist. There are still many men who don't want to work for a women. 20 or 30 years ago there were plenty of women who wanted to reach great chef status! They've paved the road that women today walk down! Change takes time and there were multiple roads that needed to be paved for the future in and out of work.

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This was what I was trying to say (sort of). Yes there were women 20 years ago who wanted to be great chefs, but:

1) as there was no real precedent for professional female chefs, it was that much harder for them to advance; and

2) proportionately they still were in much smaller numbers than the men.

I also agree that it has only been in the last few years that working in hospitality (chef, maitre d', server, owner) has become considered somewhat desirable. In Europe, okay, there is a far greater tradition of hospitality as a career path, but in much of the New World, hospitality is still evolving into a 'profession' - what's the percentage of servers who aren't just paying their way through school?

You've come a long way, baby (but there's still room for improvement!)

[Carrot Top]

LKL...nice website.

And whether you decide to stay on this path and pursue this thing or not...you still deserve congratulations.

You are there....you are doing the work....and you have proven at the very least one important point.

Boys, even in the heights of their professional powers, don't get cooties from girls (who are doing the same work standing next to them.)

And it could be you will prove much much more than that....

[Carrot Top]

It's very hard to find a stay home husband in todays society. Twenty years ago it was impossible. The career of being a Chef has JUST become a respected career with the onsurge of foodtv. Once upon a time just a few years ago you were less respected if you were a chef then a lawyer or an accountant because being a chef wasn't a "professional" career.

20 years ago this industry was so sexist there weren't glass ceilings, no they were painted neon pink. Don't be nieve to think that it still doesn't exist. There are still many men who don't want to work for a women.

When we reach EQUAL and our sex isn't even noticed then more females will be TOP chefs.

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Sinclair...I agree with much of what you have said overall in this post...but want to focus in a bit on these areas in discussion, for...well, these three paragraphs speak the strongest to me in this exact moment.

We were discussing the difficulties inherent in having a family life for a woman who wanted to undertake a profession that was demanding...with the underlying inference that this could and would weigh heavily upon the decisions that were being made and that would be made in the future by women.

And in response to your comment that twenty years ago it was impossible to find a stay at home husband I must disagree, for twenty years ago I had a stay at home husband, and it was partially this fact that sent me out into the workplace of the professional kitchen in the first place.

I realize in this thread that my life has had many parts that do not fit with most norms. Believe me, this is nothing I ever tried for...it just sort of happened...and the only real sense I can make out of the oddness of things is this: Nothing is impossible in life. And you can not guess what is around the corner.

My then-husband was fourteen years older than me, and he was a boatbuilder (America's Cup Boats) who got aggravated at what he saw as....discrimination within that world against Italian-Americans vs. WASPS. So he quit his job and decided to stay at home and design boats with the aim of eventually building one. That went on for a number of years...as he eventually fell apart in various ways....some of which had to do with the fact that he WAS a 'stay-at-home husband'. It may just be as difficult for some...most? men to be supported by their wives as it is for a woman to become a 'great' chef.

I just told that story to prove the point that these things do happen.

Here, today, I see many couples without children who have decided not to have children. I see couples who work two jobs and who do not strive for success but who just struggle with things, day to day. I see lots of children from two-income families going home to empty houses...but without either of the parents really trying to do anything but survive.

Is this right? That is for each person to answer for themselves, I guess.

The point here is that IF a woman steps out and says,' I want to do better than just average' she deserves every chance including being understood and cheered on by other people. 'Cause the other shit exists already...the sort of mess that we have in terms of 'relationships' and work.

.................................

The 'neon-pink' glass ceilings. Yes. And yes to the fact that many men do not want to work for a woman. But if enough women head fearlessly into being leaders, and behave in ways that breed respect from the people that work for them, male or female, it will change. Because there is no way any guy would prefer another guy for a boss just because he was a guy...if there were a women standing next to that guy who somehow had better management and people skills and who had shown over time that the workplace would be well run, pleasant, fair, and full of opportunity to always do more.

...................................................

Finally, I do not believe that the time will ever come that men do not see us as women, just as I don't believe that we can avoid seeing them as men.

We are what we are...but we can each add to the workplace among other places...and whoever wants to aim for the sky rather than just standing with their feet in the mud deserves cheering on.

[arielle]

Karen, I feel for both you and your ex. I understand the feelings of the "person who is at home" because I have been forced to do that already, just to get papers so that I could legally work and study. It's tough on both partners...there's nothing else to say.

I am glad that you have been able to get through your time of difficulty, I hope that you and your kids (if there are....) have borne this well. As much as I would like some, I thank God every day that I have none, because it's hard enough as it is........my cats provide me with intellecual and social stimuli! I can accept that as sufficient for the time being!

[Carrot Top]

Arielle....You are very sweet. It has been interesting during this thread to watch...for you seem to be a naturally born diplomat, in that you are brave enough to speak out about what you feel...but also seem to be trying to bring us all closer together in agreement.... .

Listen..I have to tell you that I burst out laughing, though, at the idea of feeling badly about that past marriage. No, there were no children....and though it felt bad at the time, I have been married again since, this time to a guy 14 years younger than me (don't ask I was tired and he kept insisting) and from that marriage there are children, which are an enormous blessing and pleasure...although now, again, the marriage has ended. Why? Well....he must have had a bad case of adult ADD (attention deficit disorder) because he kept forgetting he was married to me, and lived with (yes, set up house with! ) at least two other women during the ten years we were married...(his long absences were always due to 'travel', you know...which as a good provider he was required to do for his job...!) And no...one would not have ever guessed there was anything 'wrong' with the marriage for he was quite attentive when he was home!

I've always sort of viewed marriage in a way that might be considered more Gallic than Anglo-Saxon, in that I believe it needs to be at least as much of a common-sense arrangement than a mad dash into forcing oneself to believe the whole thing is 'romantic' for the next endless number of years that it will last....but...that was just a wee bit too much for me to swallow...(his behavior) when I discovered it.

Yes, I am laughing...and not in pain (though certainly pain has not been nonexistent in my life) but just at the sheer oddness of life and how it can carry people different places.

Bottom line, I tell myself (and my children) "If that is the worst thing that has happened to you, consider yourself lucky" and I truly mean that. There are many more terrible things happening to people around the world.

But again, here we have one more argument as women, to become a bit more interested in ways of expressing ourselves that do not involve uh, 'relationships'...for relationships can fail, and if you have allowed yourself to become financially entwined, there can be some serious fallout.

It sounds as if both you and your husband are working very hard right now, and it sounds really good. I remain optimistic both about the chances of two people who want to, working together in a relationship while still allowing each other room to grow and do....

As for me, I'm not too sure about wanting to try this marriage thing again...I've chosen badly twice!

What I 'do' now is that I am a stay-at-home Mom. Yeah, another odd thing. Particularly without a husband!

But that is what makes me most happy right now...and as the children get older and spend more time out of the house, something else will undoubtedly happen.

When I left being a chef , it was because I wanted to, because it had become too much about management and not enough about food. That was inherent in the job in the place I worked which was a large international investment bank on Wall Street. They had made me a VP...and the whole thing contorted itself into something that was more corporate than being about food...which is where it had started.

I don't regret a moment of it at all!

Life is hopefully long for us all, and there are lots of coats we can try on...!

Edited October 15, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

Wow, theres not mich I can say in response to the last couple posts.........other then I really do feel for you and hope your future is MUCH brighter.

I'm sorry if anyone viewed my posts as arugmentative, thats not my intent. At work there are no excuses, thats whining. I'm just trying to mention that things are complicated. Womens rights were just as real as the civil rights movement. It takes numbers of people who cross over into sex or racially dominated careers before the majority loose their strong hold and actually change their opinions. Some careers have obvious incentitives like good pay, decent working conditions. Working in a kitchen typically has: very few benefits, no daily comforts (we stand all day in unbearable heat), job security, it's low paying and until recently a career that people thought wasn't honorable.

As to the physical aspects, wise people figure out how to do things more easily then using brute force. I have 100 lb bags of flour, but I certainly don't carry them to my bin, etc... Eventually strenght becomes an issue for men too. Often they obtain back or knee injuries which slow them down. As we age things even out between the sexes in the kitchen. Men become over paid and replaced by cheaper younger men. Those of you in this profession should look around, see who's working. Where have the elders gone? Did they leave on their own accord or were they replaced? Did they move out of the kitchen because the wanted to or because they needed to? How many men recieve great chef statis over the age of 50 verses women who acheive that title later in life?

And I also was trying to say that age and social pressures often can tame your goals. Goals change as your perception of them change. I used to greatly admire people who were at the top of our (and several other) professions. Until I started to really understand the sacrifices they made. I personally don't think some of the sacrifices people make worth the reality of the success.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for your goals, strive to be your best. Aim to be the best, personally. Success isn't something someone gives to you in a title. We teach our children it's not winning or loosing that counts, it's how you played the game. Some people actually believe that. I do.

[Carrot Top]

Wow, theres not mich I can say in response to the last couple posts.........other then I really do feel for you and hope your future is MUCH brighter.

I'm sorry if anyone viewed my posts as arugmentative, thats not my intent. At work there are no excuses, thats whining. I'm just trying to mention that things are complicated. Womens rights were just as real as the civil rights movement. It takes numbers of people who cross over into sex or racially dominated careers before the majority loose their strong hold and actually change their opinions. Some careers have obvious incentitives like good pay, decent working conditions. Working in a kitchen typically has: very few benefits, no daily comforts (we stand all day in unbearable heat), job security, it's low paying and until recently a career that people thought wasn't honorable.

And I also was trying to say that age and social pressures often can tame your goals. Goals change as your perception of them change. I used to greatly admire people who were at the top of our (and several other) professions. Until I started to really understand the sacrifices they made. I personally don't think some of the sacrifices people make worth the reality of the success.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for your goals, strive to be your best. Aim to be the best, personally. Success isn't something someone gives to you in a title. We teach our children it's not winning or loosing that counts, it's how you played the game. Some people actually believe that. I do.

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Although my past seemingly has been filled with what may appear to you or to others as lack of 'brightness' I can assure you it has not been.

There have been challenges. Lots of people have these in differing ways.

My past and my present are actually rather joyous most of the time....because it is actually possible to be both 'happy' and contented regardless of one's external circumstances.

It's all in how you look at it.

But I thank you for your words and wish you satisfaction in your life too, in whichever form you personally choose it to be.

And if it seems I keep harping on about 'success' in either a 'title' or in certain forms of accomplishment, it is based on what the original question was..."Why so few women are great chefs?"

[Wendy DeBord]

Oops............I didn't mean to imply your past wasn't bright...........finding the right words is hard and I obviously chose the wrong words. I sincerely appolgize! I just wish you the best!

I understand (I think) why you and others repeatably mentioned success in the form of a title, because that is the topic. I was attempting to point out that there are people that don't measure success with titles and perhaps thats why they don't seek them out. Maybe thats why they don't enter competitions, etc........ I personally see females as a group that tends to put others in their lifes first........... and that could be a real contributing reason why more women aren't "great chefs".

[Carrot Top]

Are there wrong ways and right ways to do things in this world?

Yes. Morally, ethically, and behaviorally.

Does one have to aim for the top of the heap to be an important part of the overall scheme of things in the world? No. Not at all.

But the point is that there are many people (and in particular many women because of our common history quite recently and still in some parts of the world as being chattel) who might be happier overall in their lives if they thought it was possible to accomplish reaching the top.

One might not WANT to do this in a professional kitchen. Okay, fine. One might not want to do it anywhere.

But for those who do want to try to climb the mountain, I feel that the most important thing is not to let anyone trip you up, however inadvertantly, with stories of how "This is the way things are and it is just too hard and who really would want this thing anyway...if they were a 'good' person."

It is possible to be a good person and to get to the top.

Once again, a fire in the belly and self-perception have a lot to do with whether one has a good chance at accomplishing their dreams.

Here is an example: Compare these two statements.

1. I am a twice-divorced woman who ran away from home at fourteen and went to work to support herself because her mother was so busy attaining Ph.D's and other things in the name of Feminism that she did not have time for a child and who asked to have the child adopted or put in foster care. I've had money but have also been poor.

I now have two children and am a 'single Mom' (personal note: I think these two words need to be erased from the language...with the sort of inference that they carry...) staying at home to raise the children.

2. I am a woman raising two wonderful children by herself but who thoroughly enjoys the opportunity to do so. I am lucky to be able to do this, because although I have had two past marriages, I also had a career for a number of years that was not only emotionally and intellectually fulfilling and completely fascinating...but that also paid a six-figure salary and had great benefits...allowing me to be somewhat financially independent.Because of that career, I was also able to travel quite a bit of the world and greatly enjoyed that, too.

These two statements are about the same person.

The first is shaded by self-doubt. It goes to the lowest factor of things. It buys into sociologic definitions of both women and the world in general.

The second has the light of purpose and personal satisfaction gleaming upon it. The second is the sort of thinking that allows a person to move forward when faced with challenges.

.............................................................

The statement 'it is not winning or losing that counts, it is how you played the game' brings to mind one overall thought and then several smaller ones.

First...good sportsmanship and fairness is obviously something that everyone should carry within them and use.

But winning or losing does count.

It counts in that if a person or a group 'loses' to another person or group who do not care about good sportsmanship or fairness (guess what...they are out there in droves, and they may be smiling and acting 'nice' in daily life but their sole intent is to win without any holds barred)...then the person or group that loses will have to live by the rules of the winner.

Obviously it would be better if we 'could all just get along with each other' but that has not happened in human history as of yet....

Now I bet that there are two small questions, if not more, remaining.

Because when a person succeeds at something that other people in general do not attempt to do,or care to do, (or that other people may have attempted to do and not succeeded) the other people get pissed off.

'Not fair!' they cry. 'You didn't do it the way it was SUPPOSED to be done!'

Do I have a diploma from any school whatsoever, which so many other people have worked hard and paid good money to get? No, I don't. But I can read books and study, and have done so. There are libraries.

My first job in a kitchen was attained based on a number of test(s) by the chef, both verbal questionings and skill tests.

I managed to pass those tests better than the other applicants for the job because I had studied. I had read Larousse Gastronomique from A to Z, each entry. I totally loved the idea of cooking professionally and still love the idea of it though it is not the time for it, now, in my life. Fire in the belly. I had cooked at home. And when the chef put three applicants in the kitchen....where the pastry department had been based on pulling out some cake mix and a can of frosting, then throwing the thing together and using a star tip here and there to make it 'look' professional so they could sell it as fine food pastry...of the three final applicants I got the job because I could and did make a good, 'from-scratch' Napoleon.

So I can not say that I consider it 'unfair' that I entered the kitchen with less formal education if, finally, I could do the job as well or better than the other applicants.

The other question I am sure that resides in your mind is 'Did she sleep with anyone to get promoted?'

(Funny how that question does not come to mind with any men that move forward, huh?)

And my answer is, No, I didn't. Because that would have compromised me.

After all this nonsense is said and done though, sometimes I wish I had.

Just for the fun of it, you know...

You may not want to do this. (Aim to be a 'great woman chef' with all that infers in our culture and society).

Lots of people may not want to do this.

But for the few that do, subtle inferences about how they could do it or how they did do it or whether there could be a higher calling for them by being a more....'balanced' person....these inferences are moot.

Edited October 15, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[emilymarie]

But for those who do want to try to climb the mountain, I feel that the most important thing is not to let anyone trip you up, however inadvertantly, with stories of how "This is the way things are and it is just too hard and who really would want this thing anyway...if they were a 'good' person."

It is possible to be a good person and to get to the top.

Once again, a fire in the belly and self-perception have a lot to do with whether one has a good chance at accomplishing their dreams.

You may not want to do this. (Aim to be a 'great woman chef' with all that infers in our culture and society).

Lots of people may not want to do this.

But for the few that do, subtle inferences about how they could do it or how they did do it or whether there could be a higher calling for them by being a more....'balanced' person....these inferences are moot.

←

I completely agree with what you've said about how a person's perception and giving into stories about the reality of working in a kitchen and of how hard it is, etc. can really affect their ability to "climb that mountain." This is why I am so pig-headed about the whole thing and have kind of refused to give into the idea that there are certain things about being a woman that would make me somehow weak or unable to push ahead--or certainly any weaker than a man. It's my personal belief that how well you do anything depends on how much you want it and how focused you are. If you start to give into other people's doubts, how can you survive? I wouldn't be able to survive.

Maybe I am different from many other women in this respect--in that I don't think that in a few years I will become sidelined by my maternal instincts or desire for balance, or at least any more so than anyone else in a kitchen. A man's wife may start to nag him about not being home, but my husband will surely do the same thing. I think, personally, that we need to cut this whole way of thinking out of this dialogue--because I think that similar forces, eventually, will start to pull on a man. And, any woman who wants to succeed in any business needs to make sacrifices--so it's not unique to working in a kitchen.

I still don't know why, then, knowing this, so many women have not made it to the top. Is it really that the whole "women aren't suited to be top chefs" thing has really subtly influence how we think of ourselves as cooks and our chances for success? Do some women start to give into the ideology and see themselves as victims? Or is it, as was mentioned earlier, that there haven't been enough women as trailblazers?

[arielle]

I still don't know why, then, knowing this, so many women have not made it to the top. Is it really that the whole "women aren't suited to be top chefs" thing has really subtly influence how we think of ourselves as cooks and our chances for success? Do some women start to give into the ideology and see themselves as victims? Or is it, as was mentioned earlier, that there haven't been enough women as trailblazers?

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I think that part of it is women's motivation and how that is effected by society's attitudes:

1) be it a prejudice that we aren't suited to the top job; and

2) that being a cook or a chef is not a status job (I mean, for a lot of women, especially those raised by feminist mums, the idea of "cooking" was horrifying. When I was a kid, I steadfastedly refused to learn how to cook, or clean, or wash and iron my clothes, etc. Then my Mum said to me when I was 17 "How will you ever be a strong, independent woman if you can't take care of yourself?" I graduated one week later, and that Summer I taught myself how to cook. I love it now!) so that we were being urged by others to become doctors and lawyers - I've been working my butt off in restaurants to pay my way through law school, sometimes I just want to be a poet [but there's no money in that, right, and the status is at best a little dubious. You know, they're all opium smokers, or absinthe swillers ] - just like Karen said about her Mum who was too busy getting her PhDs to raise a daughter.....chef is not a title we are taught to aspire to.

And, of course, there is always the simple lack of precedent in that there have never been as many women in professional kitchens as men, and therefor not as many women who can be examples to both man and women that it is possible for women to reach the pinnacle of the profession.

KAREN! Egads! I don't know what to say. You must be a very, very strong woman. I wish you the best of happiness.

[Gifted Gourmet]

related eGullet discussion

and then here is more discussion on the same topic ...

No one can ever say we haven't considered this topic!

[Carrot Top]

I still don't know why, then, knowing this, so many women have not made it to the top. Is it really that the whole "women aren't suited to be top chefs" thing has really subtly influence how we think of ourselves as cooks and our chances for success? Do some women start to give into the ideology and see themselves as victims? Or is it, as was mentioned earlier, that there haven't been enough women as trailblazers?

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emilymarie...you've been thinking about this since earlier in the thread....me too.

And though this whole thing is rather exhausting, I guess we'd better get to work on finding our own answers for it...for nobody is jumping in to add ideas or information.

In my opinion, all the reasons you have stated above are true in bits and pieces here and there.

But I see one more reason...and I haven't quite solidified what my thoughts are on it...for though accustomed to thinking of the internal ways and means of motivation....and the realities of 'doing' in a kitchen...honestly I have never been too interested in who was winning the prizes, beyond knowing who it was that I personally felt was making a difference.

So there is little material to work with in an external sort of way...in an empirical sort of way...for me, with this.

But here are some thoughts....Rogov mentioned that there still are many diners who would prefer to shake a man's hand than a woman's at the end of a fine dining experience where they were chef.

Boris mentioned something about 'classic implementation of a taboo' in discussing (I think it was) uniforms.

And with my own eyes, I see that though this thread has attracted a pretty good amount of readers, there are few that are actually posting. And even beyond that...there are few that are even showing up as 'readers'. They are logging off to be invisible as they read this thread.

( I know this because I have spent a sickeningly huge amount of time here lately! )

Why is this?

Could be that we all are such a rough crowd they don't want to come in and play...

Or it could be this...taboo thing. A sort of 'messing around with this stuff could get you in trouble.... or it could be dangerous....'

Well. Taboos are usually based on myths, and myths have power. And taboos are implemented so as to protect the ideas of a society as it has planned itself to work best....(or as it thinks it will work best...)

How this might translate into women being noted and touted (or not) for being 'great chefs' might be worth considering....

Edited October 16, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Pan]

Karen, I think a lot of the readers of this thread are interested and read Rogov's article and the posts here from one or another point of view but don't feel all that qualified to post on a discussion between professionals. At a certain point, I thought of posting, but decided that others were addressing the issues better and with more knowledge of the specifics of a career as a chef.

I will say this, though: As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing "taboo" about the idea of a woman being at the top of any profession whatsoever. I'm a feminist and don't believe in the idea that there's some profession that women (or, for that matter, men) are unsuited for. There is, however, one thing that men are absolutely incapable of doing: Being pregnant for 9 months at a time and giving birth to the next generation. And if there's anything that shows the strength and endurance of women, it's their ability to do that, so don't anyone try to tell me that women are weaklings or something. (Not that you were suggesting that, Karen.)

[Carrot Top]

Michael...First of all I agree with you that a squeeze of lemon in iced tea can be an excellent thing. And also agree with you that anyone who can not understand that...well...it will be their loss.

But, to be serious, though...about this other thing....if it is the public that determines partially who the 'great chefs' are (man or woman) by voting with their feet....they belong in this thread saying what they feel.

If it is the people who make up the industry of food and restaurant writers and critics that determine partially (and this is a huge nugget of this thing, isn't it...the media attention and acclaim?) who the 'great chefs' are (whether man or woman, again) then we would hope they would join into the discussion here to add to the general knowledge of the subject...so that we all can learn.

Thanks for joining us, and please, if you do think of something, write it out....for it would be great to get closer to figuring this thing out...

Edited October 16, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Pan]

Seems like there's little doubt that public perceptions are colored by sexist attitudes toward whether a woman would be properly considered a "great chef." It sort of reminds me of the racist attitudes that until recently existed in sports in the U.S., whereby, for example, in American football, blacks were considered good at supposedly unskilled "strength" positions like the offensive and defensive lines and perhaps "speed" positions like running back, but not "skill" positions like, Heaven forfend, quarterback. When black players were finally given a chance to excel as quarterbacks, some did in major ways, proving the irrelevance of racial considerations to doubters who had felt that if blacks had never excelled in such positions, maybe they couldn't. But then, in sports, there are much more nearly objective ways to demonstrate the excellent of a player - by resort to statistics. Judgments about chefs are more subjective and, therefore, probably even more susceptible to conscious or unconscious bias than judgments about the excellence of athletes.

[Boris_A]

- by resort to statistics. Judgments about chefs are more subjective and, therefore, probably even more susceptible to conscious or unconscious bias than judgments about the excellence of athletes.

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Years ago, I had courses in paedagogics. There are some quite known experiments in this field, where you distribute a certain number of essays (written by male and female pupils) to male and female teachers to give marks. Then you exchange the names on the essays (where the pupil's name was "Peter", there's now "Barbara") and you do the same again with exactly the same essays. The alleged "female" essays get consistently and significantly lower rated. Unfortunately, female teachers are more influenced by the "gender" of the pupil and tend to rate the "female" essays even lower.

So maybe influential female gastro critics wouldn't be of much help here to compensate the discussed problem.

I'm not sure, but I think the majority of the restaurants run by great female chefs I talked about (Italy, Austria) are family enterprises, where the woman is in the kitchen and the husband is occupied in the guest room. Quite often, she does the buying of ingredients for the kitchen and he's occupied with the supply of wine and cheese. A question of balance, it seems, and not simply "role exchange".

Edited October 16, 2004 by Boris_A (log)

[Katherine]

...the marriage has ended. Why? Well....he must have had a bad case of adult ADD (attention deficit disorder) because he kept forgetting he was married to me...

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I believe the correct term is ADHD, which could only stand for Attention Deficit Husband Disorder. Speaking from my own experience, I can confirm that yes, younger men seem to have that problem.

[Wendy DeBord]

I can see why more people haven't posted their thoughts on this topic after reading how my thoughts have been attacked both subtely and overtly, then finally dismissed as if never posted. Attacking a post because a opinion contains a link to something that you believe has held you down in your personal life has nothing to do with the topic. There's personal and there's opinion. Blurring those lines and pleading wounded is not how a strong female works either professionally or nonprofessionally. Independant women don't draw the weak in to support their stand, they stand on their own regardless.

In a mans world (which the kitchen still is dominated by men) this conversation would be shut down, silenced. Male dominated work places run more on facts, action=reaction. Many women don't understand this difference.

Women are just as capable as men (in general) to succeed in the kitchen. Listen to women, here us tell you "we typically worked harded then our male counter parts to recieve equal status". The world doesn't run on fairness nor does the work place.

Educating, forwarning of the reality should not be silenced. It's only thru awareness that change happens.

[Carrot Top]

I can see why more people haven't posted their thoughts on this topic after reading how my thoughts have been attacked both subtely and overtly, then finally dismissed as if never posted. Attacking a post because a opinion contains a link to something that you believe has held you down in your personal life has nothing to do with the topic. There's personal and there's opinion. Blurring those lines and pleading wounded is not how a strong female works either professionally or nonprofessionally. Independant women don't draw the weak in to support their stand, they stand on their own regardless.

In a mans world (which the kitchen still is dominated by men) this conversation would be shut down, silenced. Male dominated work places run more on facts, action=reaction. Many women don't understand this difference.

Women are just as capable and in my personal opinion, more capable then men (in general) to succeed in the kitchen. Listen to women, here us tell you "we typically worked harded then our male counter parts to recieve equal status".  The world doesn't run on fairness nor does the work place.

Educating, forwarning of the reality should not be silenced. It's only thru awareness that change happens.

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Sinclair...if you feel your posts have been 'attacked' then dismissed...well...this is a public debate. It takes bravery to state out loud in front of people what a person strongly believes and then to stand up for it, for there will be other viewpoints, and they will be just as strong. This debate could probably go on for the ages...but it will, within our own group, probably wear out after we've all said what we think needs being said. And finally, at the end of this debate, if we have all opened our hearts and minds to what each person has said, we might be lucky to take away a bit of knowledge that can move us each individually forward in whatever direction one wants to go. The debate is still open, however, so if you think there is more to say, that option is available.

But discussion of intense subjects like this never is too pretty.

As far as drawing in the idea of a personal life to support ideas or arguments, it seems to me that the genesis of the notion that a woman's personal life did have some interaction with her potential for success as a 'great woman chef' was mentioned by almost everyone, if not everyone that posted.

I am not sure what you mean by 'drawing in the weak' to support their stand...

And I am not sure who, if anyone, you would see on this post who has pleaded they have been 'wounded'.

In my own case, I used my life to throw down on the table in a direct and confrontational manner because it was my opinion that the debate had not really begun, in a true and passionate manner.

It seemed there was little interest in posting. It seemed that no discussion was even really going to happen in any depth.

I asked for women to post and talk, twice. And since nobody did, I did what I thought would work...to bring people in to talk. I threw my own life out on the table for everyone to examine.

Honestly, the idea of having to do that made me feel slightly nauseous. For I am far from perfect...and there would be 'me' sitting there as example to poke at and examine in light of each of our own thoughts and feelings.

But factually, the story of my life is a good thing for use in this way, because there have been many factors in it that could possibly...or possibly not...depending on the person's viewpoint....be used in examining what goes on when...sometimes...not always...a woman wants, aims for, and succeeds in some sense...in getting close to what we are talking about...as I said...not a 'great' woman chef, but merely one who got to a certain professional level.

I do think our own lives, and the stories that come from them, show a bit of reality in a way that other methods of formal study, readings of sociology, and

looking at numbers do not. For they are here and now, our lives, and they are each different and capable of being sculpted into what we wish.

Edited October 16, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Carrot Top]

Seems like there's little doubt that public perceptions are colored by sexist attitudes toward whether a woman would be properly considered a "great chef." It sort of reminds me of the racist attitudes that until recently existed in sports in the U.S., whereby, for example, in American football, blacks were considered good at supposedly unskilled "strength" positions like the offensive and defensive lines and perhaps "speed" positions like running back, but not "skill" positions like, Heaven forfend, quarterback. When black players were finally given a chance to excel as quarterbacks, some did in major ways, proving the irrelevance of racial considerations to doubters who had felt that if blacks had never excelled in such positions, maybe they couldn't. But then, in sports, there are much more nearly objective ways to demonstrate the excellent of a player - by resort to statistics. Judgments about chefs are more subjective and, therefore, probably even more susceptible to conscious or unconscious bias than judgments about the excellence of athletes.

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Interesting comparison...and one that I never would have thought of!

[Carrot Top]

Years ago, I had courses in paedagogics. There are some quite known experiments in this field, where you distribute a certain number of essays (written by male and female pupils) to male and female teachers to give marks. Then you exchange the names on the essays (where the pupil's name was "Peter", there's now "Barbara") and you do the same again with exactly the same essays. The alleged "female" essays get consistently and significantly lower rated. Unfortunately, female teachers are more influenced by the "gender" of the pupil and tend to rate the "female" essays even lower.

So maybe influential female gastro critics wouldn't be of much help here to compensate the discussed problem.

I'm not sure, but I think the majority of the restaurants run by great female chefs I talked about (Italy, Austria) are family enterprises, where the woman is in the kitchen and the husband is occupied in the guest room.  Quite often, she does the buying of ingredients for the kitchen and he's occupied with the supply of wine and cheese.  A question of balance, it seems, and not simply "role exchange".

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Yes...and I have read of studies where people were asked whether they viewed a tall man vs. a short man, or a woman vs. a man...or a good-looking person vs. one that was not considered so....any number of these comparisons...in terms of what level they felt the effectiveness of the subject(s) would be in a number of different categories.

This is real stuff, and not to be dismissed in any way. It is a part of everyday life so much that we mostly don't even notice when we do it.....

But for someone who does not fit the 'winning' categories, there has to be some way to sort of improve their odds....no?

Your comment on balance rather than 'role exchange' is fascinating. Do you think that the cultures that seem to support this (you mentioned Italy/Austria)

hold something that perhaps other cultures might learn from if they wanted?

(Though on this point....that one culture will look closely at another and try to change.... I find myself somewhat pessimistic, though I am willing to be persuaded otherwise... )