Southern-style Pecan Pie

[Jason Perlow]

On behalf of the management at eGullet, I'd like to welcome everyone to the Southern Food Culture forum.

I'd like to start things off with one of my favorite things on the entire planet -- Pecan Pie.

What makes Pecan Pie Southern? What are the most important variations? What are the essential ingredients to your pecan pie? What state has the distinction of making the best one? And what advancements have there been made to the Pecan Pie in the last decade or so? Any notable examples or known masters of the Pecan Pie?

[maggiethecat]

Pecan Pie. Moan. Application of lace-edged hanky to fevered brow, and a sniff of smelling salts.

I like all of Jason's questions, but I have one of my own: the transmigration of Pecan Pie. My mother made spectacular Pecan Pie in Canada in the fifties. Was the product so good it stood by itself, or was there some kind of Underground Railway that spread it to New England , and further north to Canada?

Always with Bourbon-laced whipped cream, of course. In Canada, we substituted rye whiskey.

[Varmint]

First, the pecan itself is generally found in warmer climates. Second, it's my understanding that sugar cane-based pies were common as well, as sugar cane was grown in many parts of the South. Thus, a perfect combination was born. I think the advent of corn syrup popularized pecan pie to all parts (and made it easier, too).

Of course, it's a splash of bourbon that makes my pecan pie Southern (and extra tasty!).

[ludja]

First, the pecan itself is generally found in warmer climates.  Second, it's my understanding that sugar cane-based pies were common as well, as sugar cane was grown in many parts of the South.  Thus, a perfect combination was born.  I think the advent of corn syrup popularized pecan pie to all parts (and made it easier, too). 

Of course, it's a splash of bourbon that makes my pecan pie Southern (and extra tasty!). 

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That's also why I thought pecan pie either originated or else flourished early on in the South--because pecans and sugar were native and in abundance. Also, British cuisine and traditions had a very strong influence on early Southern desserts--more so even than in other parts of the country. It would not be surprising that a sweet nut pie would have roots in other dense sweet nut filled concoctions from England.

I have to say though, my favorite pecan pies, (and the only way I will make them) use brown sugar rather than corn syrup. I think there is a better flavor and texture obtained with brown sugar, butter and eggs rather than corn syrup. And yes, a little bourbon adds a great Southern taste as well

Edited October 1, 2004 by ludja (log)

[fifi]

Well, as a kid in the late 40s early 50s, the definitive pecan pie for me would have been the one made by my Great Aunt Minnie. She was a phenomenal cook. In the late 20s early 30s, she was widowed but was left with quite a legacy. She owned the hotel, a restaurant, the cotton gin, and a goodly part of the rest of the town of Brookshire, Texas. Her cooking was so well known, especially her pies, that she would provide pies and other goodies to the Southern Pacific passenger trains as they made their way east and west. She had a staff of helpers but was always in the kitchen supervising every step.

My sister is frantically searching our late mother's notes and "archives" to see if she can find anything definitive on Aunt Minnie's recipe. We don't remember that it was anything remarkable. We think it was the typical recipe with the Karo syrup. But then she always had her little techniques and was very picky about the pecans. They had to be those little native pecans that came off of trees along the Brazos river. We had a cousin that had a bunch of acreage that had the Brazos as one boundary. When pecan season was upon us, the whole family would head there and camp out. The guys would fish for catfish, the ladies would pick up pecans, and we slept in the back of the pick-up trucks. Then the job of shelling those little bastards commenced in the evenings. Aunt Minnie wouldn't truck with those larger, easier to shell hybrids. She called them "sawdust". On her visits to my grandmother, I can still hear her chiding my dad. "Now Eddie, you are going to have to be more careful. You know that I don't allow any broken halves in my pie." So... Maybe it was the pecans. Her phenomenal pie crust probably had something to do with it as well. I can still see those huge flakes and feel it melt in my mouth. No, I think it was the pecans. The flavor screamed of pecans, even through all of that sweetness.

[Marlene]

Ok Dean. the challenge is on. I'll trade you a butter tart square recipe for a pecan pie recipe. Middle Canada against Southern US. (I win )

[fifi]

OK... Further discussion puts some doubt on the use of Karo syrup in Aunt Minnie's recipe. We are now suspecting that she used Imperial (Sugarland, TX) light brown cane sugar. Research continues.

[lovebenton0]

The strangest Pecan Pie I have ever eaten was served to me on a cruise to the Bahamas. The pie was solid pecan chips, with very little gooey sweetness. There had to be over a half cup of pecan chips in the piece I was served. Although I was interested to see what the difference might be (Island Pecan Pie ), being addicted to the glorious Southern Pecan Pie I was used to eating, and baking, in Texas I was beyond disappointed.

I could only conclude that they just didn't get it.

[lperry]

For more years than I can remember, my Grandmother has grown sugar cane and pecans. The cane gets sent through an old cast iron grinder/press that once was operated by a mule - now it's hooked up to the axle of a tractor. The juice is boiled down into syrup in a huge kettle, and all sorts of people show up and sit on benches to watch, chat, and wait so they can get their bottle of syrup for the year. I will admit that cane syrup is an aquired taste that I have never grown to appreciate as much as my Mom's generation, but I do put a bit of it into pecan pies every time I make one. The pecans come from the trees growing just outside the fields where the cane grows. The play of the strong cane flavor against the toasty sugared pecans is just heavenly.

I can't imagine a holiday dinner without pecan pie. I think it is just an ingrained part of the culture. If Thanksgiving came and there was no pecan pie, everybody would wonder what tragedy had brought forth such an unthinkable occurrence. It would be discussed for years. "Remember that Thanksgiving when we didn't have the pecan pie?" (Followed by the shaking of heads and looks of chagrin).

I have never had a pecan pie outside of the south that tasted "right." The nuts never taste quite as they should. I agree with Fifi. The hybrid varieties may be easy to shell, but they will never capture the intensity of flavor in nuts from the wild trees.

[Mayhaw Man]

Here is a recipe similar to the one that I use that calls for fabulous Steen's Cane Syrup.. I use a few more pecans and a bit more butter, but it is pretty similar.

I believe that slkinsey made a pie similar to this one for the New Jersey picnic a few weeks ago. In fact, we went to a bit of trouble to find it for him in Manhattan, as their poorly stocked grocery stores (how do you people live there-what do you eat in that strange land?-you should get a forum and discuss it) did not seem to have any (turns out that Zabar's imports in for themselves, if you happen to be looking for any).

The things taste great. Sweet, but a little smoky, just like cane syrup and pecans should taste. The flavor might be a bit strong for the uninitiated though, so you can always replace some of it one to one with Karo.

[ludja]

Here is a recipe similar to the one that I use that calls for fabulous Steen's Cane Syrup.. I use a few more pecans and a bit more butter, but it is pretty similar.

...

The things taste great. Sweet, but a little smoky, just like cane syrup and pecans should taste. The flavor might be a bit strong for the uninitiated though, so you can always replace some of it one to one with Karo.

←

Fascinating, Mayhaw Man, fifi and lperry. Especially interesting to hear about making the cane syrup from sugar cane. Also intrigued by the description of "sweet and smoky". I can also imagine that non-commercial pecans could make a difference.

Some questions:

1. Can anyone explain the difference between Karo syrup and Cane syrup?

I think I migrated to brown sugar recipes because I liked the taste and texture better than some I've had with Caro. (I use a recipe by Bill Neal)

2. Are "brown sugar" recipes considered "authentic" or is it very different from what would have been "traditional" at some time?

3. If I get a hold of some cane syrup, would I just sub it for caro syrup in a given recipe?

4. Are pecans sold in some parts of the South (say in Farmer's Markets, etc) that are billed as "wild" or "non-commercial" varieties? Do people know of differences in pecans from different places in the South and West? (Florida, Texas, New Mexico, etc)

Found this link on different pecan varieties and some of their properties, but I can't recall from experience if different varieties were sold as such in North Carolina.

Thanks!

Edited October 1, 2004 by ludja (log)

[lperry]

Some questions:

1. Can anyone explain the difference between Karo syrup and Cane syrup? 

I think I migrated to brown sugar recipes because I liked the taste and texture better than some I've had with Caro.  (I use a recipe by Bill Neal)

2. Are "brown sugar" recipes considered "authentic" or is it very different from what would have been "traditional" at some time?

3. If I get a hold of some cane syrup, would I just sub it for caro syrup in a given recipe?

4. Are pecans sold in some parts of the South (say in Farmer's Markets, etc) that are billed as "wild" or "non-commercial" varieties?  Do people know of differences in pecans from different places in the South and West? (Florida, Texas, New Mexico, etc)

Thanks!

←

Karo syrup is made from corn, cane syrup is made from sugar cane.

Brown sugar recipes may be authentic for some areas, but I've never seen them in Florida or North Georgia. Anyone's Grandma make a brown sugar pie?

You could sub in cane syrup, but be sure to taste it first. It has a distinctive strong flavor. You may want to go half and half.

I don't know where to get wild pecans other than off the trees. If you are looking for them and someone claims to be selling them, they are smaller than commercial varieties with a denser, oilier texture. If the vendor will let you taste, they have a much more full and intense flavor.

Man. I'm gonna go make me a pie.

-Linda

[Squeat Mungry]

My mother and her mother used a combination of Barbados sugar and cane syrup in their justly celebrated pies. Yum!

Squeat

[Mayhaw Man]

2003 Pecan Production by State

New Mexico is number one. Who woulda thunk it?

[bbq4meanytime]

Serious question

is it PEE-can

pr pee-CAHN?

[fifi]

Oh dear... More doubt. Maybe there was some cane syrup in there. We always had a can of Steen's around and it was certainly the preferred syrup for pancakes. Hmmmm... I am beginning to wonder if the mystery of Aunt Minnie's pecan pie will ever be solved.

Brooks... New Mexico??? Who woulda thunk it. I wonder if the trees are mostly along the Rio Grande as it winds its way into parts of New Mexico, formerly Texas.

I am beginning to think that the conjunction of pecan trees and the growing of cane is what led to the creation of this regional marvel. So... how the hell did Karo syrup, made from mid-west corn for chrisakes, get in there? And when did corn syrup intrude on this regional classic? Was there a "recipe on the label" phenomenon to market Karo syrup?

edit to add: Does anyone know when Karo syrup came on the market?

Edited October 1, 2004 by fifi (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

puh-CON is and was the only pronunciation I ever heard growing up. I have 6 very old and still producing pretty well puh-con trees in my yard. They are close to native, but a bit different. They are small and tasty, but a little more elongated that natives, which are still suprisingly common in woods and on old homesites in parts of the South.

[andiesenji]

2003 Pecan Production by State

New Mexico is number one. Who woulda thunk it?

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Whenever I go to visit my Dad in Deming when they are harvesting, I love to go watch the machines that grab the trees and shake them. Of course these are small trees. The pecan grove on the farm where I was born and grew up, were very large old trees, home to countless squirrels which were hunted by me and my cousins.

The upper branches could be shaken to make the nuts fall, but the trunks on these trees were big and solid.

Several were harvested for the timber after being struck by lightning and I can remember my grandpa showing me the growth rings that showed one of the trees was more than 100 years old. They were fairly large pecans, and very sweet.

Edited October 1, 2004 by andiesenji (log)

[andiesenji]

There was a lot of sorghum cane grown on the farm. A fair amount was crushed and the juice cooked into molasses. It does have a distinctive taste, not at all like the syrup from true sugar cane.

Most of the sorghum was chopped and mixed with other things for silage, winter feed for the animals. I believe that the only silos in that area were on my grandfather's farm, I don't recall ever seeing any others. My cousins loved to climb the outside of the silo, open one of the vents and stick their heads inside as the fumes (from the fermentation of the stuff) were strong enough to nearly make one drunk.

The best pecan pie I ever tasted was made by our cook. I wish I had the recipe but so far have had no luck in getting my aunt to part with it.

I know it does not include any Karo syrup, it was made with brown sugar and a lot of eggs or egg yolks. It also included ground or chopped pecans because I can remember one of the young women who worked in the kitchen sitting with a large wood bowl and a hand chopper working it back and forth in a bowl full of pecans. I sometimes got to help with cracking the pecans. They would sit me down on a low stool with a towel across my lap and a small sad iron upside down in my lap with the handle between my knees, and a little ballpeen hammer. I was supposed to stand the pecan on end and give it a tap or two till the nut cracked, drop it into a pan and go on to the next one. Someone else would remove the shell and so on. If one "happened" to fall apart I could eat the nut. Funny how many fell apart...........

Next I will post my recipe for pecan pie that has been touted as "fair" by various tasters.

[Mabelline]

I'm with Brooks about puh-con. fifi, I also hunted them from native trees alongside the Brazos. The gal who ended up with the Eastern (Weatherford) 6666's bought a grove for her goats that had many spectacular trees, and we were able to go scouring there. We had a cloth surveyors tape, and one spectacular tree was 25'8" around the base. Those were indeed very hard nuts to cajole to give up the fruit.

There's some stuff that just does not taste right without some cane syrup. This is one, to my mind.

[andiesenji]

PECAN PIE

With No Corn Syrup

This method simply thickens the egg mixture with the sugar to make a custard, loaded with pecans. If you toast the pecans first, they will have more flavor…and the result is not quite so aggressively sweet as the one’s made with corn syrup. I also add just a pinch of white pepper to the filling for a piquant top-note!

SERVES ABOUT 8 (ONE PIE, 8”, 9” OR 10”)

1 baked pie crust - either 8, 9 or 10 inches in diameter

2 cups, shelled pecans – toasted (see below)

5 eggs

1 cup, white sugar

1/2 cup, brown sugar

pinch of salt (about 1/8 tespoon)

6 tablespoons, (3/4stick), butter – melted

1 tablespoon, vanilla extract

To toast the pecans: bake them on a cookie sheet for about 5 minutes in the oven as it preheats (or at an oven temperature of about 250 degrees). Shake and stir the nuts frequently, and bake them until they are hot and fragrant. Cool the pecans; finely chop about half of them – and coarsely chop the remainder.

Preheat the oven to 375 degrees.

Break the eggs into a small saucepan (off the heat) and beat the eggs well, until they are thick and foamy.

Add the sugars, salt and melted butter to the eggs and beat until the mixture is smooth.

Place the saucepan over medium-low heat and warm the egg mixture gently, stirring constantly, until it is hot to the touch – but do not allow it to boil, or the eggs will scramble.

Remove the pan from the heat and stir in the vanilla extract and the chopped pecans.

Place the pie crust on a baking sheet.

Pour the filling into the crust

[Cook’s Note: The crust may be still hot from pre-baking, or warm it in the oven before adding the filling. This will prevent moisture condensation on the bottom of the pan and a soggy crust.] Bake 30-40 minutes or until the filling shakes like Jello, but the surface still appears wet.

Cool on a rack (it will complete cooking) and serve warm or at room temperature.

A larger in diameter pie will be shallower and the filling will cook more rapidly than a deeper one.

Variations:

For CHOCOLATE PECAN PIE: Melt 2 ounces of semisweet chocolate with 3 tablespoons superfine sugar. Allow to cool slightly, then blend this mixture into the beaten-egg and sugars mixture as you warm that mixture, before adding the vanilla and pecans.

Then continued as directed above.

For pumpkin/pecan pie add 1 1/2 cups of pumpkin puree into which you have beaten 3 egg yolks and 1/4 cup brown sugar, to the egg mixture prior to adding the vanilla and the pecans. If it seems too thick and dry, add the 3 egg whites also, however the yolks are usually enough liquid unless the pumpkin puree is very dry.

This will make 2 regular pies or bake in a 9 x 13 rectangular pan in which you have blind-baked a crust. This will require the equivalent of a double crust batch of pie dough.

[ludja]

Thanks for posting the recipe andiesenji.

The proportions look pretty close to Bill Neal's recipe (which I like alot)-- only differences are inverted proportions of white to brown sugar, and the addition of ~ 2 Tbs flour and ~ 1 Tbs rum or bourbon.

I'm very excited though to learn about using cane syrup and feel I must try this soon.

Also Squeat's suggestion re: Barbado sugar sounds great. I found out it is also called "muscovado" and is described as a rich dark brown sugar.

[Richard Danzey]

I just found this first entry on a Google Search:

http://www.karosyrup.com/history.asp

danz

[lizprince]

I have a cookbook from Winnfield, Louisiana "The Dixie Cookbook". It was published before 1929; I am still trying to pin a date to it. The pecan pie recipe has the following ingredients: sugar, red karo,mashed pecans, eggs, butter size of walnut, and pinch of salt. This is the recipe my grandmother used for years. And it was delicious! I might have to make a pecan pie for Thanksgiving.

[Mayhaw Man]

Winnfield

Home of Huey P. and Earl Long. OK Allen. Three governors of Louisiana.

It is also the home of the The Louisiana Political Museum and Hall of Fame, whose slogan is "You indict 'em, We induct 'em". A pretty interesting small town stop if you are ever driving between Alexandria and Shreveport and are looking for a stop to kill a little time. Winnfield is also the home of the Uncle Earl's Hog Dog Trials, an event that for most is better read about than attended (although the tshirts that are sold at this event are worth the price of admission-catahoula curr wear is hard to come by at any price ).

The reference to "red karo" is interesting. I assume that they are talking about "dark syrup", but perhaps there was another grade in the 20's. I have a copy of the 1st Baptist Church Cookbook from Bastrop, Louisiana (another mill town to the north and east of Winnfield) that has a similar recipe. It also has a poundcake recipe that is, literally, divided into pounds of butter, sugar, eggs, and flour. I have been making it for years and also using it as a base for my Peach Pound Cake Recipe which is in Recipe Gullet.

Vote For Earl. I ain't Crazy

Actual slogan for Earl Long's 1960 Campaign for Governor...

Louisiana, it's a bizarre place.

Potential slogan for the Louisiana Office of Tourism