Kitchen renovation

[hshiau]

We live in NYC and are looking to completely renovate the kitchen (approx 8ft x 10ft) in our 2 bedroom apartment. This means destroying everything and starting all over. I've read through some of the previous threads on kitchen renovation but I hadn't seen any for NYC apartments. My wife and I don't cook that much but my mom does come over and cook chinese food sometimes (lots of grease). I think I read something on NYC apartments and the rules against venting? Not sure if I read this right.

Anyway, we've just started seeing contractors and would look for any recommendations on how to proceed. Do we need a designer? Since we don't cook that much, I'd think that we wouldn't need any super high end appliances but wouldn't want to go cheap either (resale value).

Also, everyone seems to say that it will take twice as long and cost twice as much. Where have the additional costs been in your experience?

So:

1. Designer? Do I need one?

2. Contractor recommendations

3. Cabinet recommendations

4. Counter (I think we've decided on granite)

5. Refrigerator recommendations

6. Range recommendations (we like gas)

7. Hood/vent/fan?

8. Dishwasher recommendations

9. Hidden costs

10. Where to shop!

Thanks for any help you can give me!

Howard

[bloviatrix]

For appliance research I would go to Krupps on W. 18th (btw 5th and 6th). The place is a hole in the wall, but they are very knowledgable. There's also Bloom & Krupp on E. 14 (near 1st Ave if I remember correctly) and Elgot on Lex btw 68th and 69th. Drimmer recently opened a Manhattan showroom called Manhattan Center for Kitchen and Bath which is probably worthwhile as well. As for purchases, A&B Drimmers on Coney Island Ave (Ave M) in Bklyn is well priced. You also might want to check out PC Richard in NJ. There's one on Rte 17 in Paramus and one in Springfield on 22 -- if you buy multiple appliances they'll work on a deal.

For a dishwasher, I love my Bosch. It's very quite which is good in an apartment where everything is close together.

[hshiau]

For appliance research I would go to Krupps on W. 18th (btw 5th and 6th). The place is a hole in the wall, but they are very knowledgable. There's also Bloom & Krupp on E. 14 (near 1st Ave if I remember correctly) and Elgot on Lex btw 68th and 69th. Drimmer recently opened a Manhattan showroom called Manhattan Center for Kitchen and Bath which is probably worthwhile as well. As for purchases, A&B Drimmers on Coney Island Ave (Ave M) in Bklyn is well priced. You also might want to check out PC Richard in NJ. There's one on Rte 17 in Paramus and one in Springfield on 22 -- if you buy multiple appliances they'll work on a deal.

For a dishwasher, I love my Bosch. It's very quite which is good in an apartment where everything is close together.

Thanks. My friend's mom actually owns Krupps so I'd be hoping to get a good deal there.

Which model of the Bosch do you have? I've heard of some difficulties with loading.

[bloviatrix]

Which model of the Bosch do you have? I've heard of some difficulties with loading.

I'm not sure -- it's 9 years old. But we've never had a problem with it.

[phaelon56]

I did my own rebuild from scratch on the first kitchen but was on a serious, serious budget and my choices/appliances likely aren't relevant for this thread. My current house came replete with a very nicely redone kitchen - apart from a vent hood there's nothing to change or update (until I can afford a decent six burner range).

I have followed some kitchen renovation threads here from time to time including Mayhaw Man's, Varmint's and quite awhile back.... the Perlow's. Not feeling motivated enough at the moment to dig and post links to those threads but there were bits and pieces of all of them that will be relevant even though they were in houses and yours an apartment.

Among the few issues you raised that I can comment on:

2. Contractor recommendations - get specific references that you can trust - people who actually had work done by the contractor and they must be people you can trust by either knowledge or reputation. In lieu of or in addition to that check to find out of there are any judgments against the contractor. Make sure its' someone who is willing to contractually commit to getting in there and dedicating their resources to your project straight through without too many diversionary jobs. Most contractors have multiple jobs going at the same time for a variety of reasons - not a problem as long as they aren't stretched too thin.

3. Cabinet recommendations - lots of people saying good things about Ikea and their mounting system is appealing for apartment dwellers - you have the option of taking the cabinets with you when you move .

4. Counter (I think we've decided on granite) - granite or the composite stones seem to get the highest level of "yes I'd use them again" feedback in this forum.

5. Refrigerator recommendations - lots of good stuff on the recent Mayhaw Man thread on this topic - especially re/bottom freezer vs. top and side by side vs single door. Almost all seem to recommend against SubZero as being too unreliable and too pricey for what you get.

6. Range recommendations (we like gas) - good feedback on GE Monogram Series from many in this forum. Specifically for those wanting higher end but without the cost of Wolf, Garland etc.

7. Hood/vent/fan? Can't comment much on this - higher CFM air movement is a key thing to look for on vents that go to the outside. I have no idea if there are higher end options for recirculating indoor venting . Do look for vent screens/filters that will be easy to degrease and wash (e.g. stainless steel mesh)

8. Dishwasher recommendations - people seem to love Bosch. On my first dishwasher I went really low end and added fiberglass insulation myself to improve the sound deadening. My contractor told me that at the lower end the big difference among different brands and price points is how quiet they are. It really is easy to add extra sound dampening yourself on cheaper dishwashers. On all of the higher end models it should be a moot point as they are already designed to be quiet.

9. Hidden costs - Project creep is the big one. You start changing some little things here and there and adding a few features. This is one key place where costs just seem to shoot up very rapidly. If a contractor proposes a feature in the initial bid and you shave it off thinking it's not necessary, expect that feature to cost a lot more if you end up adding it back in mid-stream.

Also.... plan your availability of materials carefully to avoid extra time and extra trips from installers etc. Your extended inconvenience from having an overly long remodeling project is not a cash item but it's truly a hidden cost that should be considered.

Make sure things are specified very exactly as to types, grades, thicknesses etc of materials. Make absolutely no assumptions - many contractors will use the cheapest grade of materials when there isn't a specific mandate to do otherwise.

If you draw up the plans yourself or with some help... consider paying a good designer a small consulting fee to review your plans and your contract to ensure that it's thorough enough.

By the way... although they're often in left field about many products and sometimes just plain clueless... Consumer Reports magazine has a pretty good article this month on kitchen cabinets and the related issues of design, where to purchase etc. It's worth looking at before you embark on a project of this type.

The major oversight I had in the kitchen that I designed and built was inadequate lighting. if I was doing that kitchen again I would double the number of ceiling canister lights for overall illumination and also add a fair number of spots to give better light in work areas. I tend towards subdued and indirect light in living spaces and work spaces and hate fluorescents. It's easy enough to avoid fluorescents but plenty of halogen or incandescent is need for a good working area (plus dimmers to drop the light level when the work is done )

[bloviatrix]

Regarding the refrigerator - considering you have a narrow kitchen, you should look into counter-depth/built-in style refrigerators which are roughly 24 inches deep. They're slightly more costly, but they make sense in smaller spaces.

[hshiau]

Regarding the refrigerator - considering you have a narrow kitchen, you should look into counter-depth/built-in style refrigerators which are roughly 24 inches deep. They're slightly more costly, but they make sense in smaller spaces.

Thanks. That's exactly what we're looking at. Right now, one potential is the KitchenAid KBRP20EMSS. Any idea how much more are the built in models?

[hshiau]

Thanks a lot for your input!

3. Cabinet recommendations - lots of people saying good things about Ikea and their mounting system is appealing for apartment dwellers - you have the option of taking the cabinets with you when you move .

I wouldn't think we'd take the cabinets with us. We just want something that looks good and is flexible. We're probably looking to get ceiling height top cabinets

5. Refrigerator recommendations - lots of good stuff on the recent Mayhaw Man thread on this topic - especially re/bottom freezer vs. top and side by side vs single door. Almost all seem to recommend against SubZero as being too unreliable and too pricey for what you get.

We like the bottom freezer (as recommended by many) and are looking at a Kitchen Aid counter depth model right now.

6. Range recommendations (we like gas) - good feedback on GE Monogram Series from many in this forum. Specifically for those wanting higher end but without the cost of Wolf, Garland etc.

I noticed the GE Monogram is over $3K. Would this be on the high side considering our cooking requirements?

8. Dishwasher recommendations - people seem to love Bosch.

There doesn't seem to be much of a price difference between the Bosch, Asko and Miele dishwashers.

The major oversight I had in the kitchen that I designed and built was inadequate lighting. if I was doing that kitchen again I would double the number of  ceiling canister lights for overall illumination and also add a fair number of spots to give better light in work areas. I tend towards subdued and indirect light in living spaces and work spaces and hate fluorescents. It's easy enough to avoid fluorescents but plenty of halogen or incandescent is need for a good working area (plus dimmers to drop the light level when the work is done   

The funny thing here is that my wife thinks that halogens are too bright and she doesn't want to mess with changing our light switches.

[bloviatrix]

Another thing to think about regarding your range-top: if it's being used to cook chinese food you might want a range that can accomodate a wok-ring. Additionally, you want something that puts out a lot of BTUs.

[hshiau]

Another thing to think about regarding your range-top: if it's being used to cook chinese food you might want a range that can accomodate a wok-ring. Additionally, you want something that puts out a lot of BTUs.

If we go up in BTU's (how much is enough?), don't we start getting into some of the higher end models? Oddly enough, my parents use a low end GE at home.

[winesonoma]

First off; Do you own this or are you upgrading for the landlord? My SO / Girlfriend bought one of these and I love it. http://www.kitchenaid.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...me=Gas%20Ranges Also one of those 2 upper-door pull out bottom freezers from Sears. Good luck and as a contractor please don't change things halfway through. Cause it's gonna cost ya big time. Upgrade the electrics or you'll be sorry. Lights ,switches and plugs more than you thought and in 2 years you'll be glad you did. It always costs more later. (The contractors motto). Good luck.

[hshiau]

First off; Do you own this or are you upgrading for the landlord? My SO / Girlfriend bought one of these and I love it. http://www.kitchenaid.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...me=Gas%20Ranges Also one of those 2 upper-door pull out bottom freezers from Sears. Good luck and as a contractor please don't change things halfway through. Cause it's gonna cost ya big time. Upgrade the electrics or you'll be sorry. Lights ,switches and plugs more than you thought and in 2 years you'll be glad you did. It always costs more later. (The contractors motto). Good luck.

We own the apartment. Funny...that's exactly the range we're looking at right now. As for changing things halfway, that's why I'm here. I don't know enough and want to try to make sure I have my bases covered.

What do you mean by upgrade the electrics? All the wiring? Just the outlets, switches?

[bleachboy]

Countertops. Soapstone, bitches, soapstone!!! I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Granite countertops are the "avocado green formica" of the 2015's. Sure, they look nice now, but they're trendy as hell and they WILL go out.

Soapstone is non-porous, non-reactive, you can put a thousand degree pot on it without harm, you can sand it down if it ever gets scratched, it's the miracle material.

Martha Stewart bought her soapstone countertops from this company.

[hathor]

Timely thread. My stove up and completely died on me on Tues night. It was a long anticipated and overdue death.

I ran around yesterday looking at a bunch of stoves, and had very good luck at store call Gringer. Its on 1st Ave between 1st and 2nd street. Its a kind of range mecca. I need all electric because we don't have a gas line in our building, which is apparently very, very unusual in Manhattan.

I'm going with a Bosch HES25, here's the link for the same stove in gas.

I wound up going over to DUMBO where they have a showroom. Its amazing! Beautiful, huge space that show cases Bosch, Gagenau and Thermidor. A woman spent an amazing amount of time with me going over all the details. Apparently you can bring a load of laundry there and test out the Bosch washing machines. You could probably cook a meal there. Very worthwhile visit. You cannot buy directly from the showroom, and I did the actual purchase thru Gringer.

Here is the info on the showroom: BSH Home Appliance Corp. 1 Main St. Brooklyn 718-625-2425.

Good luck!!

[nwyles]

HAs anyone ever used one of those in sink dishwashers by Kitchen Aid.

I see them in mags all the time but have not seen one anywhere.

They look like they would be perfect to do the lunch / breakfast dishes in without running a full load in the big dishwasher.

Comments ?

[phaelon56]

I wouldn't think we'd take the cabinets with us.  We just want something that looks good and is flexible.  We're probably looking to get ceiling height top cabinets

I noticed the GE Monogram is over $3K.  Would this be on the high side considering our cooking requirements?

The funny thing here is that my wife thinks that halogens are too bright and she doesn't want to mess with changing our light switches.

You probably won't want to take the cabinets with you but if you sell it and the cabinets can be easily upgraded/changed by the new oners due to the mounitng system... it could conceivably be a selling point. Regardless... although lots of their furniturre looks good but is actually a bit cheesy in terms of longvity and real build quality, I hear good things about their cabinets.

I had no idea that the GE Monograms were that expensive. I have a cheap Whirlpool gas range that was in the house when I moved in. It's brand new but the "power burner" doesn't get hot enough and it has a white enamled metal top with sealed burners. it constantly builds up crued and is impossible to get compeltely clean without damaging the paint. The Kitchen-Aid in the link looks great. For the kind of cooking and kitchen use you describe it looks like a good fit. It has full grates (yes - a big plus!) and ceramic glass underneath the grates(which is not white) - shouodl be a cinch to keep it clean. And that's a good price.

I think my kitchen halogens are a bit too bright also but I have dimmers. You could also get some that include diffusers. It's just a betetr light to work in for visibility reasons. Plus you'll need good light to take photos of the great food you'll be preparing and show them to us here, right? The point was already made - just do the wirign and the switches now - it's cheaper and easier in the long run.

[winesonoma]

First off; Do you own this or are you upgrading for the landlord? My SO / Girlfriend bought one of these and I love it. http://www.kitchenaid.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...me=Gas%20Ranges Also one of those 2 upper-door pull out bottom freezers from Sears. Good luck and as a contractor please don't change things halfway through. Cause it's gonna cost ya big time. Upgrade the electrics or you'll be sorry. Lights ,switches and plugs more than you thought and in 2 years you'll be glad you did. It always costs more later. (The contractors motto). Good luck.

We own the apartment. Funny...that's exactly the range we're looking at right now. As for changing things halfway, that's why I'm here. I don't know enough and want to try to make sure I have my bases covered.

What do you mean by upgrade the electrics? All the wiring? Just the outlets, switches?

Put in more outlets than you think you will ever need, Phone and speaker wire for the stereo. Design for ten years from now. It's cheep when all the walls are open. Cover your walls between your upper and lower cabinets with Durable and washable things. Plastic laminate is cheap if put up before the Cabinets and cleans nicely. Feel free to contact me with questions, I'm from NY and have no desire to go back.

[hshiau]

Plus you'll need good light to take photos of the great food you'll be preparing and show them to us here, right? 

Oh! Did I say we cook?

[hshiau]

Put in more outlets than you think you will ever need, Phone and speaker wire for the stereo. Design for ten years from now. It's cheep when all the walls are open. Cover your walls between your upper and lower cabinets with Durable and washable things. Plastic laminate is cheap if put up before the Cabinets and cleans nicely. Feel free to contact me with questions, I'm from NY and have no desire to go back.

Speaker wire! How big do you think my apartment is? The living room is right next to the kitchen. You sure you're from NY?

Now plastic laminate. How does that look? It doesn't sound real nice. I was thinking possibly of tile.

[winesonoma]

Put in more outlets than you think you will ever need, Phone and speaker wire for the stereo. Design for ten years from now. It's cheep when all the walls are open. Cover your walls between your upper and lower cabinets with Durable and washable things. Plastic laminate is cheap if put up before the Cabinets and cleans nicely. Feel free to contact me with questions, I'm from NY and have no desire to go back. 

Speaker wire! How big do you think my apartment is? The living room is right next to the kitchen. You sure you're from NY?

Now plastic laminate. How does that look? It doesn't sound real nice. I was thinking possibly of tile.

Tile has grout lines=grunge lines. Plastic laminate is endless in what you can get. Go to a countertop shop or on line not Home Depot. Granite counters with a matching or close plastic laminate wall looks great. Unless you go for Granite wall covering to.

Edited August 13, 2004 by winesonoma (log)

[snowangel]

Put in more outlets than you think you will ever need, Phone and speaker wire for the stereo. Design for ten years from now. It's cheep when all the walls are open. Cover your walls between your upper and lower cabinets with Durable and washable things. Plastic laminate is cheap if put up before the Cabinets and cleans nicely. Feel free to contact me with questions, I'm from NY and have no desire to go back.

Yes, more outlets are better. I went from a kitchen with outlets everywhere to one with TWO (yes, only two) duplexes. We will fix that this fall, but it is certainly easier to do it on the front side than the back side. My former kitchen was wired for sound, had phone jacks in two places, and cat 5 wire in two places. "Network" in the kitchen, believe it or not, was a selling point!

Right now, I would kill for more outlets. So, until we get around to cutting into the sheet rock and installing some more electrical outlets (we're DIY'ers), I swear and just buy another power strip cord.

[hshiau]

Wow. I just figured out that my kitchen is 10' x 10', not 8' x 10'. I'm off to a bad start.

[andiesenji]

Check out this Thermador cooktop which is what I would get today instead of the cooktop I do have.

I like the star burners much better than the ring shape.

This has enough output to cook with a wok.

I have a separate wok burner which I rarely use because it throws out too much heat for me.

[curlywurlyfi]

another tip is make a list before you start of things you absolutely want to happen in your kitchen. By no means exhaustive, but mine included:

- drawers to keep pots and pans in rather than cupboards

- no eye-level cupboards - I have low ceilings so would have compressed my space further; instead I have 'tower' cabinets in the corners of the room

- adequate space to the right of the sink (or whichever side you prefer) to take a meal's worth of dishes so you don't have to stack the machine during the meal

- dishwasher to be beside the sink for easy scraping

- four shelves in the tower cupboards instead of manufacturer's standard three

- I specified a washing machine which had a zero-degrees option (for washing woollens)

- slightly taller than standard units so my countertop is at a comfortable prep level

- kitchen taps you can turn on/off with your elbow!

- cupboard under the kitchen sink to hinge on the 'wrong' side, because most of the time I'm getting into it for dishwasher powder or laundry detergent, and both appliances are on the right of the sink

And I second the comment about power outlets! Get more than you could believe possible. And if you have space (which you may not, in an apartment kitchen), get a big sink. You want to be able to soak a roasting tin in there, not just dip in one end. (Can you tell that's one I got wrong.)

Fi

[hshiau]

- no eye-level cupboards - I have low ceilings so would have compressed my space further; instead I have 'tower' cabinets in the corners of the room

My ceilings are 8' (I think. I got my kitchen dimensions wrong before). We'd like the cabinets to go to the ceiling. What do you mean by 'tower' in the corners?

- I specified a washing machine which had a zero-degrees option (for washing woollens)

No washing machines are allowed in the units in our building.

- slightly taller than standard units so my countertop is at a comfortable prep level

I'm assuming this is because you're tall. My wife is 5'2" so the standard units would be high enough. How much more would it be to customize the cabinet height?