Vermouth

[Kerry Beal]

The LCBO site claims we can now get Carpano Antica and Carpana Classico (which I know nothing about) as well as Dolin Dry and Dolin Rouge. I was initially excited but I've yet to see any of them in any stores around where I live so the excitement and hope are both fading.

Saw the Carpano Antica but not the classico and both the Dolins.  Want some sent along?

[Czequershuus]

@Czerquerhaus - Right. I'm suggesting that if your local store can get Antica, I bet they can get Punt e Mes. Maybe they can special order it for you at no extra cost.

Ah, I see. This could be a possibility, I do have a very good relationship with the staff and owner. Thank you for the suggestion. 

 

I'm curious: what vermouth sours are you drinking? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Oriental, and I've never really found it to be anything special.

I looked through my recipes, and while it is a small category, there are a few that stand out. The Wig in a Box is the best of the bunch for me. The Supreme is really very nice. The Chet Helms is a very tasty long drink with sweet vermouth. And if you happen to have three kinds of vermouth open, the Pay Per View is worth a shot. 

[Czequershuus]

Owing to my local liquor stores stopping stocking Noilly Prat Original Dry, I finally opened my bottle of Noilly Prat Extra Dry. I was skeptical at first, because the marketing seems to place the extra dry in a class with M & R Extra Dry, which I do not like at all. This, however, is very close to the Original Dry. Mostly it lacks some of the richness of the Original Dry, but the botanical backbone is still present.

 

I tired it out in my standard Martini. 2:1 with Beefeater and two olives. It performed quite well. This is an acceptable substitute for the Original Dry, I am glad I will not have to special order my standard dry vermouth.

[slkinsey]

The NP Extra Dry is essentially a reintroduction of the old American version of NP that prevailed over here for many years.

[Kent Wang]

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

[EvergreenDan]

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

Interesting. I do wish vacuum sealing was tested. And I'm surprised that sweet vermouth was selected, as I've found it to be less prone to spoilage.

 

My take-away is that probably any of these methods is okay, since the testers struggled to identify the "odd man out" in the triangle.

[bostonapothecary]

Interesting. I do wish vacuum sealing was tested. And I'm surprised that sweet vermouth was selected, as I've found it to be less prone to spoilage.

 

My take-away is that probably any of these methods is okay, since the testers struggled to identify the "odd man out" in the triangle.

 

it is harder than you would think to de-gas a liquid with a vacuum. to actually get rid of the oxygen you would end up boiling the liquid and then you would damage the aroma. pressure de-aeration works much better to force out certain gases and is a lot cheaper that vacuum on the home scale. you can more or less do it with a tap-cap or my champagne bottle manifold.

[slkinsey]

The idea of a vacuum device for a wine bottle is not to draw out gasses already dissolved in the liquid, but merely to remove as much oxygen as possible from the headspace.  Really, when you think about it, the best design for something like vermouth would not be a bottle but rather a "wine in a box" concept so that no gas is introduced into the bottle from dispensing.

[bostonapothecary]

The idea of a vacuum device for a wine bottle is not to draw out gasses already dissolved in the liquid, but merely to remove as much oxygen as possible from the headspace.  Really, when you think about it, the best design for something like vermouth would not be a bottle but rather a "wine in a box" concept so that no gas is introduced into the bottle from dispensing.

 

for a bottle of wine with a glass poured out, if you don't vacuum the head space, the liquid starts to absorb enough oxygen form the head space within maybe six hours to fully oxidize the wine. that is just some trivia I remember from reading The Technology of Winemaking. the problem with focusing on head space, even if you get to it immediately, is that it isn't really very significant.  the amount of oxygen taken up by the liquid just through the act of sloshing and pouring is pretty significant.

 

with a beverage its hard to believe it happens, but with the plastic & rubber parts I make for the Champagne Bottle Manifold its staggering how just stirring and pouring a viscous liquid entraps huge amounts of air. you can pull a serious vacuum then pressurize it and you still get small amounts of bubbles.

 

Goode & Harrop's book, Authentic Wine, has a small section on bag in the box technology, but they comment that the current materials diffuse pretty significant amounts of oxygen and have limited store shelf lives. European bag in the box wine are actually bottled stateside to combat this. Vermouth which doesn't move from shelves as fast an Franzia would probably need some alt bag technology.

 

but remember, Vermouth is pumped full of anti oxidants from all the botanicals in it, so the oxidation worries that people have are probably far over blown.

[Czequershuus]

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

Interesting that the tester could not detect a difference in the dry vermouth after a month. I Vacu-Vin my vermouth and store in the refrigerator, but after a month I almost always notice off flavors. I may have to blind test this myself. With the sweet though, I totally understand. I had a bottle of Carpano Antica that I forgot about in my cabinet that tasted just fine 8 months with no refrigeration. 

[slkinsey]

bostonapothecary, I don't disagree that these devices are ineffective. I'm just pointing out what they are designed to do. Anyway, I'm betting that bag-in-a-box vermouth would be just fine for periods up to a year of incremental use.

[Katie Meadow]

I'm experimenting with a nice hot-weather drink called the Gentle Persuasion, since I have all the ingredients with the exception of Lillet Rose. I have Lillet (blond), but found the amount added to the drink was just too much, since I'm not even a big Lillet fan. Here's Gary Regan's adaptation of the cocktail:

 

1.5 oz Lillet Rose

1/2 oz Laird's applejack

3/4 oz fresh lemon juice

1/2 oz simple syrup

2 dashes Peychaud's

mint sprig

 

I used the Lillet Blond and cut it back somewhat, but I still want to get away from the Lillet taste. What might be a good substitute or variation? I have the following on hand: Bonal, Amaro CioCiara, Fernet Jelinek (that would be weird, no?) and Cocchi di Torino, along with the usual suspects of Noilly Prat dry and Martini & Rossi Red.

[Kent Wang]

The Sweethome says that vacuum doesn't work that well and that inert gas is the best for keeping wine fresh. The article is about wine, so a bit less applicable to vermouth.

 

Should you also avoid storing vermouth bottles on the refrigerator door? It'll slosh every time you open the fridge.

 

Anyway, I'm starting to get the feel that one shouldn't worry too much about vermouth at all.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I've tried vacuum and I don't think it works that well.  Vermouth is vermouth, and I don't even like it all that much.  Mine stays in the refrigerator door.

 

I think the solution for wine is to drink more wine.

[FrogPrincesse]

Based on this article from Wired published last year, I started storing opened bottles of vermouth and wine under inert gas (always in the fridge). For wine the improvement is noticeable right away - I can keep bottles for a week and hardly notice any difference in quality. For vermouth, it's harder to tell because the decline in quality is not as dramatic and much slower too. But it helps.

Edited August 1, 2014 by FrogPrincesse (log)

[SamChevre]

I saw some Spanish vermouth - Vermut Lacuesta - at the liquor store, so I picked it up.

 

The most noticeable difference relative to Cinzano or Martini and Rossi is that it is "lighter"; not in a bad way, but like the difference between Amarone and port.  The botanical profile is quite similar--maybe just a touch more bitter.  The sweetness and acidity are comparable.  It has very little of the cocoa taste of Cinzano and Cocchi, and it's less berry/cherry than the M&R.

 

For some reason, it tastes to me like it would complement brandy exceptionally well.  (I need to pick up some brandy and see.)

 

It's interesting, and very good straight, chilled.

[brinza]

I'm experimenting with a nice hot-weather drink called the Gentle Persuasion, since I have all the ingredients with the exception of Lillet Rose. I have Lillet (blond), but found the amount added to the drink was just too much, since I'm not even a big Lillet fan. Here's Gary Regan's adaptation of the cocktail:

 

1.5 oz Lillet Rose

1/2 oz Laird's applejack

3/4 oz fresh lemon juice

1/2 oz simple syrup

2 dashes Peychaud's

mint sprig

 

I used the Lillet Blond and cut it back somewhat, but I still want to get away from the Lillet taste. What might be a good substitute or variation? I have the following on hand: Bonal, Amaro CioCiara, Fernet Jelinek (that would be weird, no?) and Cocchi di Torino, along with the usual suspects of Noilly Prat dry and Martini & Rossi Red.

If you can get M&R Rosato, that might make a decent sub for Lillet Rosé.

[Marya]

I saw some Spanish vermouth - Vermut Lacuesta - at the liquor store, so I picked it up.

 

The most noticeable difference relative to Cinzano or Martini and Rossi is that it is "lighter"; not in a bad way, but like the difference between Amarone and port.  The botanical profile is quite similar--maybe just a touch more bitter.  The sweetness and acidity are comparable.  It has very little of the cocoa taste of Cinzano and Cocchi, and it's less berry/cherry than the M&R.

 

For some reason, it tastes to me like it would complement brandy exceptionally well.  (I need to pick up some brandy and see.)

 

It's interesting, and very good straight, chilled.

You might also find Yzaguirre and Atxa (Perucchi, too) to your liking. I personally find that Spanish vermouth, particularly the reds, are naturals for sipping.  Maybe it's the memories they evoke of the tapas bars with vermouth barrels behind the counter that I first encountered four decades ago. Before they were available, Carpano Antico was, and still is, a favorite, but the Spanish beauties are the ones I choose for my "hora del vermut". I don't understand why they are not more popular in the states.

[lindag]

When a recipe calls for white wine I use vermouth because I never have a small amount of white wine available and I don't often drink it.  My vermouth seems to keep, opened, forever.

Edited August 8, 2014 by lindag (log)

[Rafa]

Tempus Fugit Spirits announced the Alessio Vermouth Renaissance series, which will focus on vermouth styles that are seldom exported outside of Italy, and recreations of styles that are seldom seen at at all these days. Their first two releases, a Torino-style rosso and a chinato, should be available in October. 

[bostonapothecary]

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

 

an idea to throw out there, which I just read about in a wine makers catalog, is to add glass marbles to your container to displace what was poured out. I guess some winemakers do this with experimental ferments when there is no stock to top it up with, and they don't want to/can't put down a gas blanket into a large void.

 

I'm not sure if the trick will come in handy for anyone's preservation ritual or small scale projects but there it is.

[JMForester]

"add glass marbles to your container to displace what was poured out. I guess some winemakers do this with experimental ferments when there is no stock to top it up with, and they don't want to/can't put down a gas blanket into a large void."

 

I usually use a spritz of gas, but if you don't have a smaller container to decant into, something like glass marbles could work well. Just have to make sure they are inert, and sterile.

[Joe Blowe]

Serious Eats published a long write-up recently on storage options, The Best Way to Store Vermouth:
 

Refrigeration works pretty darned well. I wish I could go back in time and set up a more rigorous experiment, but I honestly thought I would be able to tell the difference in opened vs. unopened vermouth in just a few days time. Since a month made no difference to me, my hypothesis was obviously shattered.

 

Vermouth stays drinkable longer than wine does. Most wine lovers would agree that leaving a bottle of wine sitting on the counter for more than a day or two, let alone a few weeks, would mean having to scrap the bottle. And yet, after a full thirty days at room temperature during which I repeatedly opened a bottle of vermouth and exposed it to the air, still only four out of seven tasters could accurately identify the aged sample.

 

Inert gas works better than rebottling. This one was another big surprise for me. The rebottled vermouth had two things going for it: less headspace and the fact that I didn't open them over and over. And yet, more people correctly identified the rebottled sample—and disliked it—than the sample purged with inert gas.

 

 

Short version: Refrigeration and/or a can of inert gas are the best options.

 

 

[FrogPrincesse]

I tried Maurin sweet vermouth for the first time a few days ago. It's very savory, with a lot of herbs such as thyme. Almost reminiscent of the seasonings in tomato sauce. Apparently it's a fairly new product made based on an old recipe. Maurin currently belongs to Anchor Distilling.

I used it to make a Negroni.

 

 

 

 

[TheBoozeBaron]

On 01/03/2016 at 6:31 AM, FrogPrincesse said:

I tried Maurin sweet vermouth for the first time a few days ago. It's very savory, with a lot of herbs such as thyme. Almost reminiscent of the seasonings in tomato sauce. Apparently it's a fairly new product made based on an old recipe. Maurin currently belongs to Anchor Distilling.

I used it to make a Negroni.

 

 

 

 

Good? Bad? Worth investigating or just stick with Dolin for basics and local interesting stuff for the others?