Chinese condiments

[sequim]

Hello everybody,

As I increase my activities in asian cooking, I am starting to collect a sizeable number of bottles of condiments. I don't know what to keep in the fridge and what I can keep out. Obviously I have more cupboard space so would like to keep these things out, but I'm not sure. The bottles don't say Refrigerate, but what do most people do? I have all kinds of soy, hoisin, chilli paste, oyster sauce, black bean sauce, fish sauce, hot sauce... Some I have in the fridge, some I have in the cupboard. I feel like these are all fermented type of things so don't need refrigeration but I am just guessing. Another problem is that some of the bottles are rather big and don't fit in the fridge very well which is frustrating.

Thanks!

Linda

[Ben Hong]

Of the things you listed, I only refrigerate oyster sauce. Most condiments are quite salty, sour or just vegetable matter and I have never worried about most of them being stored outside of the fridge.

[sequim]

Thank you Ben. I have been refrigerating the oyster sauce, but now it looks like I can take out the soy and Mae Ploy chilli sauces.

[hzrt8w]

I have all kinds of soy, hoisin, chilli paste, oyster sauce, black bean sauce, fish sauce, hot sauce... Some I have in the fridge, some I have in the cupboard. I feel like these are all fermented type of things so don't need refrigeration but I am just guessing.

Here is the list of sauces I found from my past experience that I need to keep refrigerated:

- hoisin sauce (goes moldy quickly after opened without being frig'ed)

- chee hou sauce

- oyster sauce

- chili paste (especially chili bean paste)

- hot sauce - depends, most of them don't, some of them do

- black pepper sauce

- Thai basil paste

As for other sauces, especially soy, black bean sauce, fish sauce, you can safely leave them out in room temperature. Also safe are plum sauce, sa cha sauce, curry paste, vinegar, cooking wine, brown bean sauce.

I found it hard to generalize. Trial and error is probably the only learning path. Or if you list them out specifically, I can tell you if I would put it in the frig or not.

[sequim]

Hum, now I'm confused. What is your past experience hzrt8w? I mean, what happened when they were out? Now out of your refrigerated list I keep chili paste, hoisin sauce and black bean paste out. I haven't noticed anything going bad and the hoisin has not developed any mold on it. Could it be you got something in the hoisin which made it go moldy? My assumption has been if extra spicy, extra salty, or fermented, then it could be out and bacteria wouldn't like such a hostile environment. But then I'm not a food biologist or chemist or whatever you would call one who would know.

[trillium]

It's going to depend on the conditions you keep something out in and what's in your stuff to preserve it (it varies from brand to brand). It also depends on how fast you go through something. You might just have to play around and figure out what works best for you.

We make most of our own chilli sauces and they will mold very quickly. They stay in the fridge or freezer unless they're oil based and then they stay in the outside. The Thai oyster sauce stays outside, the Chinese stuff is sweeter and molds so it goes in the fridge. The hoisen doesn't get used fast enough and will mold or dehydrate, so it stays in the fridge too. Fish and soya sauces never go in the fridge. We don't use premade black bean sauce, so the fermented black beans are perfectly fine in the cupboard. I think it's what works best for you.

regards,

trillium

[hzrt8w]

Hum, now I'm confused. What is your past experience hzrt8w? I mean, what happened when they were out? Now out of your refrigerated list I keep chili paste, hoisin sauce and black bean paste out. I haven't noticed anything going bad and the hoisin has not developed any mold on it. Could it be you got something in the hoisin which made it go moldy?

One time I left my hoisin sauce out in the pantry after opened, molds started to appear after a week. The molds might have landed from the spoon, or just plainly airborne. I would never know. If you keep your opened hoisin sauce outside the frig, it is only a matter of time (weeks, or even days) that it turns moldy.

Unopened sauces in jars can be kept for years.

[jo-mel]

Gloria Bley Miller's "1000 Recipe Chinese Cookbook" has a chapter entitled "Storing Information". I have more or less followed her guide, but her advice does not always follow what it says on jars and bottles, and vice versa.

One example --- She says that Chinese Chili Sauce does not have to be refrigerated. My favorite brand is Lan Chi and years ago it had no refrigeration information on the jar. So armed with her advice and with no instruction on the jar ---it remained in my cabinet for years (different jars, of course!) Then I read some where that it should be refrigerated. I looked at my latest jar --- and there it was --- "keep in refrigerator after opening"!!!! The long arm of the legal world???? BTW - No one ever got sick eating it, and it never turned bad. It did lose its power as the jar emptied, but did as well in the refrigerator when I started to obey the warning.

Bley-Miller's book was written when Hoisin Sauce always came in cans. She tells you to place leftovers in tightly covered jars and refrigerate. Fine. But I have jars of Koon Chun Hoisin which has no 'refrigeration' warning ---- and a jar of Lee Kum Kee says to refrigerate their Hoisin! I must look at jar of Wei-Chuan to see what they have to say. Wei-Chuan Peking Sauce andCantonese Sauce say to refrigerate.

Bley-Miller says you don't have to refrigerate Oyster Sauce ---- Again I didn't for years. But I see that 2 different brands (Hop Sing Lung / Lee Kum Kee) suggest refrigetation, so now I do. Koon Chun oyster sauce says nothing on the label!

One other example of conflicts --- MeeChun Pickled Ginger - "Keep refrigerated after opening" , but a jar of Pickled Ginger from Thailand -- nada!

One more---- The tall bottle of Kikkoman soy sauce (not the low-sodium) says to refrigerate, but the little squat Kikkoman bottle with the red top has no instructions on it!

Generally, I keep wine, vinegar, sesame oil, chili oil and some soys in a cabinet along with all the dried,semi dry, and canned stuff. The soy in the cabinet is Pearl River. (which now comes in a shorter bottle and can fit on my shelf!!) That brand says to refrigerate, but I never have. The other wets all are in the refrigerator, along with salted shrimp and scallops.

I haven't helped, have I.

As Trillium says, 'conditions' and such can be your guide.

[sequim]

Thanks for all your input though it still leaves things pretty wide open. I know what you mean about Pearl River - I now have two bottles of their soy that are just pushing at the shelf above in my cupboard.

I don't think I have any bottles of condiments that say anything about refrigeration although I'll probably check again for what it's worth.....not too much as it seems pretty inconsistent.

Now if I was Project, I'd be going crazy. Too many conflicting opinions and not enough hard and fast rules. I guess if people do different things, then it really doesn't matter too much. If mold grows on top, then refrigerate it next time.

I checked my cupboard-kept (and for maybe a year) hoisin sauce last night and it's still mold-free and smells fine so it'll stay there. Maybe it does have more preservatives than others - it's the common generic supermarket brand.

[Gary Soup]

One more---- The tall bottle of Kikkoman soy sauce (not the low-sodium) says to refrigerate, but the little squat Kikkoman bottle with the red top has no instructions on it!

The small Kikkoman bottles are commonly used as part of the table setting in Chinese restaurants (some of which have been know to refill them with cheaper soy sauce!). They may have omitted the refrigeration advice to avoid freaking out the more obsessive customers ("How long has this bottle been sitting out????"). The regular Kikkoman is so salty that it probably doesn't matter.

I think my wife refrigerates chili sauces and nothing else (I'll check when I get home, if I remember). But then, turnover is pretty fast on most of her condiments, as she cooks Chinese every day.

[hzrt8w]

If mold grows on top, then refrigerate it next time.

Bravo! All knowledge are results of our ancestors' trial and error efforts.

[jo-mel]

The small Kikkoman bottles are commonly used as part of the table setting in Chinese restaurants (some of which have been know to refill them with cheaper soy sauce!).  They may have omitted the refrigeration advice to avoid freaking out the more obsessive customers ("How long has this bottle been sitting out????").  The regular Kikkoman is so salty that it probably doesn't matter.

I guess that is the reason that the little squat bottle has this on the bottle:

"Do not fill with other than Kikkoman"

I could never fit Koon Chun (my first soy) or the old tall Pearl River bottles on my shelves, so I used the little squat bottles and (shhhhh) filled them with 'dark' and 'light/thin' soy.

Don't tell anyone!!

[herbacidal]

Hello everybody,

As I increase my activities in asian cooking, I am starting to collect a sizeable number of bottles of condiments. I don't know what to keep in the fridge and what I can keep out. Obviously I have more cupboard space so would like to keep these things out, but I'm not sure. The bottles don't say Refrigerate, but what do most people do? I have all kinds of soy, hoisin, chilli paste, oyster sauce, black bean sauce, fish sauce, hot sauce... Some I have in the fridge, some I have in the cupboard. I feel like these are all fermented type of things so don't need refrigeration but I am just guessing. Another problem is that some of the bottles are rather big and don't fit in the fridge very well which is frustrating.

Thanks!

Linda

We keep some soy sauces, oyster sauce, chili sauce in the fridge.

We don't have fish sauce, hot sauce???, or black bean sauce.

[Carlovski]

I tend to find the stuff sold in supermarket has ridiculously pessimistic shelf lives and storage instuctions "Refrigerate after opening and consume within 3 days" whereas imported ones have much longer shelf lives or none at all.

Things like fermented black beans seem to keep forever, and stay moist, even though they are just packed in a cardboard box.

[jo-mel]

I tend to find the stuff sold in supermarket has ridiculously pessimistic shelf lives and storage instuctions "Refrigerate after opening and consume within 3 days" whereas imported ones have much longer shelf lives or none at all.

Things like fermented black beans seem to keep forever, and stay moist, even though they are just packed in a cardboard box.

I wonder just how much of that caution is just 'legal protection'.

The fermented black beans have the salt for protection, but for all my 'dries' -- including those beans, my biggest concern is the flying stuff -- the moths, and their worms. I use bay leaves freely, altho 48 hours in the freezed is supposed to destroy those pesky weevils.

[Transparent]

My family keeps every condiment in the fridge. Hoisin sause goes bad really fast, even in the fridge. My father slathers hoisin and black bean sauces on every meat marinade he does, so we go through the bottles of Lee Kum Kee fairly quickly.

[Jason Perlow]

Moderator note: This was split off from the "Sally Ling" topic in New Jersey.

When I see diners drowning their food in that horribly sweet duck sauce (as Chinese as Borcht) I am amazed. Please tell me what they are tasting when they cover their food in it. The same goes for the hot mustard. My wife and I have just come back from 4 weeks in South East Asia. We never, ever saw any duck sauce or mustard on any table nor could you order any as some Americans at another table tried to do. They did serve different types of Soy and Chili sauces that complemented the different dishes we were served and were they ever delicious.

Hank, one of our (as in Rachel and myself) most favorite things in the entire world are Egg Rolls with Duck Sauce and Mustard. I'm not going to argue for one minute that Egg Rolls are authentic regional Chinese items, they aren't. However, properly made -- and there are good ones just as well as there are bad ones -- I can enjoy one just as easily as I do a real Hong-Kong style spring roll -- with Worcestershire sauce.

I think that Duck Sauce and Hot Chinese Mustard have their place. They work particularly well with deep fried appetizers, such as Shrimp Toast. The mustard, however is completely authentic, its served quite often at Hong Kong-style dim sum places along with chili sauce, as an accompaniment to steamed dumplings. Silver Pond in Fort Lee -- as hard core a Hong Kong-style restaurant as you can get -- does this all the time.

[Hank]

Hank, one of our (as in Rachel and myself)  most favorite things in the entire world are Egg Rolls with Duck Sauce and Mustard. I'm not going to argue for one minute that Egg Rolls are authentic regional Chinese items, they aren't. However, properly made -- and there are good ones just as well as there are bad ones -- I can enjoy one just as easily as I do a real Hong-Kong style spring roll -- with Worcestershire sauce.

I think that Duck Sauce and Hot Chinese Mustard have their place. They work particularly well with deep fried appetizers, such as Shrimp Toast. The mustard, however is completely authentic, its served quite often at Hong Kong-style  dim sum places along with chili sauce, as an accompaniment to steamed dumplings. Silver Pond in Fort Lee -- as hard core a Hong Kong-style restaurant as you can get -- does this all the time.

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I don't wish to push the envelope too far on this topic but I must tell you that I personally cannot see how you can taste any food, or as in your case an egg roll when it has been dipped in sweet, cloying duck sauce and very hot mustard and still taste what the chef has been trying to convey to you as far as taste goes. Unless ofcourse you just love the taste of these condiments. With that I have no argument. You eat or taste whatever turns you on, even if the taste of the food has been obliterated.

Another comparison is the person (and I have seen many) who empties half a bottle of ketchup on a very fine and expensive steak and washes it down with a coke. Do you really think that he/she has any idea what that meat really tastes like. I would think not .

One more point and then hopefully we will put this to bed. I have been to Hong Kong three times (Great Chinese food, especially Dim Sum) and have never, ever seen any mustard on the table, both restaurant and private home.

I do hope at some point you would explain why you would call the Silver Pond a hard core Hong Kong style restaurant. I have a better description but I will only whisper that to you the next time we meet.

[Jason Perlow]

I don't wish to push  the envelope too far on this topic but I must tell you that I personally cannot see how you can taste any food, or as in your case an egg roll when it has been dipped in sweet, cloying duck sauce and very hot mustard and still taste what the chef has been trying to convey to you as far as taste goes. Unless ofcourse you just love the taste of these condiments. With that I have no argument. You eat or taste whatever turns you on, even if the taste of the food has been obliterated.

Any condiment when used to excess is going to detract from what it is applied to, be it ketchup, mustard, relish, mayonnaise, whatever. I use mustard and duck sauce sparingly on Egg Rolls and Shrimp Toast or fried wontons or on any other fried appetizer -- in small amounts its a complementary flavor. By the way, there is good duck sauce and there is lousy duck sauce -- the better duck sauce is made predominantly of apricot preserves and has orange peel in it. The combination goes very well with fried foods, especially ones with pork in it.

The hot English mustard -- which along with Worcestershire sauce was brought into Hong Kong by way of, guess who, the English - is particularly used with steamed dumplings, such as Shu Mai or Har Gow, in combination with a small amount of chili sauce, because those dishes are inherently bland and need a little bit of spicing. This is not something which has been the subject of Americanization, its what they really do in Hong Kong. But we're not talking about dunking dumplings in the stuff, we're talking about using a dot of it or small dab of it here and there. In addition to dim sum in Hong Kong, the spicy mustard is also used as a condiment for 'Cheong Fan' , a typical breakfast item, which is a plain roll of steamed rice flour pastry. I also quote this entry on Hong Kong dining at Travelocity.com:

If you want to be correct about it, a well-balanced meal should contain the five basic tastes of Chinese cuisine--acid, hot, bitter, sweet, and salty. The texture should vary as well, ranging from crisp and tender to dry and saucy. The proper order is to begin with a cold dish, followed by dishes of fish or seafood, meat (pork, beef, or poultry), vegetables, soup, and noodles or rice. Some dishes are steamed, while others may be fried, boiled, or roasted. Many of the dishes are accompanied by sauces, the most common being soy sauce, chili sauce, and hot mustard.

As to Silver Pond -- its definitely one of the better Dim Sum parlors in the entire Tri State area as far as I am concerned. I haven't been there in a while only because China 46 is such a huge bargain by comparison for a weekend brunch, but China 46 does not serve Hong Kong-style dim sum. I've been wanting to go back to Silver Pond for a while.

[wesza]

In Hong Kong the condiments generally served in the majority of Restaurants catering to Cantonese [not tourists] always placed at every table mixed condiments of "Hot Mustard" traditionally Coleman's but in the last 25/30 years more often a English Style Hot Mustard imported by my associates from the USA in 55 Gallon Drums and repacked into 5 caddy packages for Restaurants.

Whats unique to Hong Kong is that it's not purchased by the Restaurants but by the Front of the house employees. This is due to it being traditional that all customers leave small cash gratuity for the use of the Mustard or Red Sauce, Hot Sauce, Worcestershire, Various Vinegars that the diners "CHOOSE" to use with their meal. This payment has nothing to do with the standard service charge added to almost all Restaurant checks but is payed as a welcome extra for using the condiments to the servers.

Since the servers are aware that visitors, tourists and many non Chinese locals are not aware of this custom they choose not to provide condiments unless requested often reminding the guests who may speak Chinese to be sure to advise their hosts if they aren't sure who will be paying the check for the meal. Almost always if the Chinese is hosting the meal it is pre-arranged that no check will be presented at the table to avoid any question about payment.

This custom is only done at "Chinese Restaurants" as condiments are available at all other types of Ethnic Restaurants where it is provided by the Restaurant to customers.

Hope that this clarifies the condiment query. The so called recipe most popular in Hong Kong is to use Beer as the liquid when preparing the Mustard from the Powder and allow it to rest for several hours [sometimes it's turned upside down for potency ?] before serving.

Irwin

[Jason Perlow]

Wow, that's fascinating, Irwin.

[Ben Hong]

Irwin, the practice that you speak of is one of the customs that we're seeing less and less of, agreed?

BTW, in our family traditions Coleman's mustard is usually served with white cut chicken along with ginger/scallion/oil dip, and, oyster sauce. Chili sauce such as sriracha was and is preferred when we have Singapore noodles, sa ho fun, etc. Most Cantonese (I am one) don't usually do this, but we do. Plum sauce on egg rolls or spring rolls? Fie on that. Real plum sauce(not pumpkin mix) or duck sauce is usually used for bbq duck. A small dot of ketchup on crispy roast belly pork wrapped in a bit of iceberg lettuce, is a favourite.

That's it, there is NOTHING else on the table other than what I mentioned for a real authentic Toysan, merchant/ peasant, family meal - except the ubiquitous soy sauce.

When I say authentic, I am referring to what we saw on the table in a relatively well off, pre-Liberation Chinese family. The real peasants can only hope for a regular bowl of rice with a few veggies. Condiments and sauces? Well they'd be doing real well if they had salt and oil.

Edited February 22, 2005 by Ben Hong (log)

[PCL]

For the record, in my humble experience, every dim sum place worth its name/salt/reputation will supply the following:

- hot mustard

- worcesteshire

- XO sauce

hot mustard goes with 'siu-yuk', drunken chicken/squab/pigeon, sharks fin soup, char siu.

duck sauce is a plum sauce, no different in concept to any French fruit based sauce for duck or pork.

love your work Ben, you little Toysanese you. Will check with grandma this weekend about our origins.

[hzrt8w]

One more point and then hopefully we will put this to bed. I have been to Hong Kong three times (Great Chinese food,

especially Dim Sum) and have never, ever seen any mustard on the table, both restaurant and private home.

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I am not sure what kinds of restaurants you'd been to in Hong Kong (they have different kinds). But in dim sum restaurants bringing a small dish of hot mustard, or chili sauce, and sometimes a mix of the 2 in a ying-yang shape is almost like a standard. Soy sauce is poured on a small dish as a "service". In a lower-end restaurant, it's placed on the table.

Unless you went to those that geared towards tourists... Or that the waiters didn't know whether they should bring you the mustards/soy knowing that you were a tourist...

For the record, in my humble experience, every dim sum place worth its name/salt/reputation will supply the following:

- hot mustard

- worcesteshire

- XO sauce

hot mustard goes with 'siu-yuk', drunken chicken/squab/pigeon, sharks fin soup, char siu.

←

XO sauce? I really doubt it they "give" this away for free. I think they will provide you with some upon request but would add extras to your bill.

Mustard for sui-yuk, char siu I understand. But shark-fin soup? Hmmmm, that's unusual. Typically what some would use is a bit of vinegar, which really brings out the taste. Any other condiment may overpower the delicate taste of shark-fin.

Worcestershire sauce is not usually brought out automatically unless accompanying dim sum dishes such as steamed beef balls, and egg rolls.

Edited February 22, 2005 by hzrt8w (log)

[Yuki]

They only thing I want to see on the table is really good chili oil with some chopped chili in it. I love restaurants that make really good chili oil, and if we know them well, I can usually sneak a bottom out from the kitchen. I think the only time that I use the yellow mustard is to put them on roasted pork to cut the fat. Duck sauce is reserved for roasted duck, and I usually prefer to eat the duck plain. I don't get why duck sauce is so popular............ I have seen people mixing duck sauce with rice.

It is correct that we usually only see mustard and hot sauce being placed for dim sum meal only. I would put the hot sauce on the fai gow and that's about it. When it comes to real meal, we usually don't get any condiments on the table. They will only bring the condiment when we order a dish that needs it.