The Iceberg Tip, Sending an S.O.S.

DonRocks · June 14, 2004

pork wrote, about Les Halles:

I don't expect a lot from a restaurant on a sunday afternoon, but at least offer to refill my drink, mmkay? Left less than 20% for the first time in years. (I'm an ex cook/waiter/bartender, so 15% from me is a "fuck you.")

Last week I had dinner at a well-known restaurant that has a canoe hanging from the rafters. My friend and I ordered a full meal at the bar, which was relatively empty. At one point, my comrade's wine glass was down to about 1/4 full, and the bartender said, "would you like me to touch that up a bit for you?"

A nice gesture, right? A little extra splash of wine to get you through your entree and fill your heart with comraderie and goodwill? Nope! He filled the glass up to about 3/4 full, but when the bill arrived, he had charged for another glass of wine.

The food was good, and the bartender was friendly, if a bit robotic and formulated, but this was irksome, and I ended up leaving a 15% tip which, at least in my own tortured mind, is a clear signal that service was merely ordinary. Had the bartender comped that "touch-up," he would have received a bigger tip.

A well-known Hooligan once told me that in his opinion, good service is even more important than good food, and that bad service is remembered long after the food itself has been forgotten. More and more, I'm finding that I'm coming around to his school of thought.

Cheers,

Rocks.

Al_Dente · June 14, 2004

Had a similar thing happen this weekend at a bar in a certain Capitol Hill Italian restaurant held in low regard in eGulletland. We went up to the bar for an after dinner drink, oddly enough after dinner. I order mine, my sister orders something different for herself. My snifter is filled the right amount, my sister's is filled until the bottle runs out-- about a 1/2 a snifter.

Conversation

Me: do you have any more?

Bartender: <shrug>

Me: are you charging me for it?

Bartender: uh huh

Me: WTF?

Bartender: :huh:

Me: How bout you take this drink back, and she'll order something else?

Bartender: okay.

Sister: <scans the bottles behind bar and names a brand of cognac>

Check came later for a drink that costs 4 times what she initially ordered.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Al_Dente (log)

DCMark · June 14, 2004

Ugh.

I hate that. Saying something makes you look like an ass but not saying anything makes me feel like an ass.

I ate out of a canoe this weekend but I was camping...

clifford · June 14, 2004

A well-known Hooligan once told me that in his opinion, good service is even more important than good food, and that bad service is remembered long after the food itself has been forgotten. More and more, I'm finding that I'm coming around to his school of thought.

Absolutely! We've all had great meals, average meals, and bad meals. But I never once thought that any of those meals were intentionally made poorly.

Service, however, is a whole different ball game. An establishment, and their servers, make a decision on how they intend to treat their guests. The restaurant industry is a very human business, and people often makes mistakes; service does lapse. All restaurant employees need to do is objectively think, "What would I want done if this situation occurred to me?", then react in kind.

I can recite complete episodes where I got shafted on the service end in 1994 as if it were yesterday, but can only recount snippets of an outherworldly dinner I had at Maestro in February.

sara · June 15, 2004

Hmm.. this is a hard one for me. Liam and I debate service all the time. I think I'm a little less 'sensitive' to bad service; perhaps because of my extensive time waiting tables at crappy joints, I tend to cut servers a lot of slack. A lot. But at the same time, I'm not forgiving of complete rudeness, lying, or upselling, things that are unexcusably deliberate.

One example--Liam and I had brunch at Lou Mitchell's in Chicago in February. Basic breakfast, pancakes and eggs. The servers there are mostly elderly women, many crotchety, and I love that. Ours served Liam his pancakes, and forgot to check that he had syrup. He was pissed and refused to eat til she came around and he could ask for syrup. Me, I was very chill (eating my eggs) and said 'she's old, she'll get to you when she gets to you' after all, breakfast only cost $5. In other words, I don't expect 4 star service from a low-cost or med-cost joint. But his take was that it was highly reasonable to expect syrup with the pancakes, and why should he be expected to do without? This seemed to me to ruin his meal for him, and I suspect it's what he remembers most about breakfast that day. Liam?? I know it's what I remember, now. But I'd eaten there a prior time, and the service was whatever, and what I remember and came back for was the delicious food. And I'll go back again. Because I think, for me at least, food is food, and it's the reason I eat out. Service is a bonus if it's great, and a slight damper if it's not. But I'd eat great sushi from an otherwise talented Nazi-like sushi chef if I had to--no complaints. Even if he forgot the soy sauce! :biggrin:

Edited June 15, 2004 by sara (log)

liamdc · June 15, 2004

Hmm.. this is a hard one for me. Liam and I debate service all the time. I think I'm a little less 'sensitive' to bad service; perhaps because of my extensive time waiting tables at crappy joints, I tend to cut servers a lot of slack. A lot. But at the same time, I'm not forgiving of complete rudeness, lying, or upselling, things that are unexcusably deliberate.
One example--Liam and I had brunch at Lou Mitchell's in Chicago in February. Basic breakfast, pancakes and eggs. The servers there are mostly elderly women, many crotchety, and I love that. Ours served Liam his pancakes, and forgot to check that he had syrup. He was pissed and refused to eat til she came around and he could ask for syrup. Me, I was very chill (eating my eggs) and said 'she's old, she'll get to you when she gets to you' after all, breakfast only cost $5. In other words, I don't expect 4 star service from a low-cost or med-cost joint. But his take was that it was highly reasonable to expect syrup with the pancakes, and why should he be expected to do without? This seemed to me to ruin his meal for him, and I suspect it's what he remembers most about breakfast that day. Liam?? I know it's what I remember, now. But I'd eaten there a prior time, and the service was whatever, and what I remember and came back for was the delicious food. And I'll go back again. Because I think, for me at least, food is food, and it's the reason I eat out. Service is a bonus if it's great, and a slight damper if it's not. But I'd eat great sushi from an otherwise talented Nazi-like sushi chef if I had to--no complaints. Even if he forgot the soy sauce!

To keep up the working metaphor, let me say this: As a native New Englander and a long-time Vermont resident, trying to eat pancakes without maple syrup is akin to being up a creek without a paddle. :raz:

Bad service can overshadow an otherwise good, and even a great, meal. Few establishments seem able to manage impeccable service which itself is memorable. Nectar is one of those rare exceptions which triumphs in both camps--food and service. Another restaurant that comes to mind is No. 9 Park in Boston where I've eaten a number of times recently. But, I love a good greasy spoon, too, provided that they bring me silverware, fresh coffee and, yes, syrup for my pancakes.

So I'll admit to being a demanding & sensitive diner. If I said anything different, you can be assured that Sara would call me on it! :biggrin:

Mark Sommelier · June 15, 2004

Those who know me , know that I'm not shy. If you don't bring me syrup with my pancakes, and don't come back quickly to check on things, I'll get up and go looking for it. That's just me.

JRage · June 15, 2004

I'm with Sara in that I'm very sensitive to good/bad service. I think the service has the ability to either enhance or ruin your meal. Great service will never make bad food taste better, but you might at least have a more favorable experience overall. Whereas bad service can totally ruin what, as a paying customer, you have every right to enjoy.

That said, if I know that I'm going to get bad service, despite the excellent food, I am ok with it. Growing up we used to eat at the Olney Ale House all of the time and the hostess there used to be a 'little' gruff. We saw it as a right of passage to an otherwise good meal. Bad attitude or gruff service has to be part of the philosophy not just a deviation from the plan.

I've gone the last few weekends to Colorado Kitchen for brunch and they have their own rules and attitude that we accept going in. We just order, eat and enjoy and then we get the f___ out, before anyone gets hurt. It's not what I go for with my own restaurant, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying theirs.

And I'm with Mark concerning the syrup... Liam, I understand the principle behind waiting to eat until I've been brought syrup, but I'd sooner squeeze sap out of the restaurants fake ficas tree before letting my flapjacks go cold.

Bond Girl · June 15, 2004

I would even go so far as to say that I rather eat at a fast food place or a self service grease spoon than a restaurant with good food but bad service. Nothing irks me more than great food that has been damaged by bad service. The worst offense here is food not getting to the table fast enough, so you end up eating cold food (particularly awful when it comes to pizza) or desserts where the ice cream has melted beyond recognition.

sara · June 15, 2004

Wow, this discussion is so interesting to me, because it sounds like some people are 'service-ees' rather than foodies! To me, it's food first. How can bad service ruin an otherwise great food experience-- unless you let it? Service and food are two separate things, created usually by two or more separate people. I favor the latter in shaping my opinion of the restaurant. With a few exceptions--if the service was notably sexist, racist, or classist in its attitude--i.e. my experience at Salt in Philadelphia last year, where I felt they discriminated against me with regard to wine because I'm a younger woman (see the Philly thread on that). Loved the food at Salt, but can't go back.

Mark--I'm with you on getting up and finding my own stuff, I do that b.c I know where to find it usually-- but if I get 'caught' I frame it as I'm just being helpful, not that I'm upset with the slow service.

ps. I know LiamDC means spotless CLEAN silverware not just silverware. :biggrin:

Hest88 · June 15, 2004

I have no problem with bad service at a cheap local joint. Actually, scratch that. I have no problem with bad service when it's obvious that the husband and wife team who cooks, serves, and busses the tables at their restaurant is swamped when a flood of people enter the door--as long as it's friendly. In our favorite Korean place the service is so slow that we've automatically get our own water now, but we go back because the food is good, our expectations are low, the prices are reasonable, and the service is never rude.

What I can't stand, though, is completely incompetent and indifferent service, such as our recent experience at Mel's Diner where the fountain guy was chatting with his friends for so long and then proceeded to fix the orders at such a glacial pace that the elderly couple next to us waited forty minutes for their sundaes.

And, of course, the nicer the restaurant the better I expect the service to be.

It's nice of some of you to tip 15% even when the service is appalling. They say that women tip worse and I suppose I'm guilty as charged. I consider my tip to be a statement and there's no way I'm tipping 15% for awful service.

bilrus · June 15, 2004

I think that the less you are paying, the more easily you can forgive less than attentive service. Part of what you are paying for in higher-priced restaurants is more professional/better service. So I think service becomes a greater part of the experience comapred with the food the higher you go on the price scale.

That said, there is no excuse at any price level for rude or inattentive service.

Ted Task · June 17, 2004

Oh, BOY, did this subject hit home with me. Please understand that I'm OLD, and have spent my life in the food and bev biz.

THERE IN NO REPEAT NO EXCUSE FOR POOR OR SLOPPY SERVICE.....NONE.

What I chuckle at is when my children (they are approaching 40) NOW say to me,dammit I'm getting to be just like you.........especially when they are the CUSTOMERS, and are spending money. This is my admonition to all of you who think that it's OK to allow for "Someone having a bad day.".....they should have "stood" in bed. When one is paid to administer service, they had better be well trained and then watched.

I blame the retail outlets almost as much as I blame the apologists.

You get what you deserve, unless you don't put up with the bad service, and noisily complain about it. Not as "nasty" as I am? Don't tip at all! For the life of me, I do not understand anyone feeling that they have sent a message by tipping ONLY 15%.

SERVICE is noble, only here in the US do we think that working to serve others is demeaning.

OK, I find that I'm lecturing, so I'll shut up.

Ted Task

frogprince · June 17, 2004

in abominable distressing times such as these, i furtively wish that this county's servicing would sail back over the ocean blue and admit the europeans (ok i can only speak for the germans, french and english) are far more accomplished in this touchy issue than their progeny; for the record, servers in the aforementioned countries (though this practice has begun to wane given the recent frightening aping of america by some europeans) are paid a WAGE, much as most people. TIPS are EXTRA, meaning that if i believe i have been the recipient of exceptional service resulting in an exceptional experience, i will make it known with a postprandial pecuniary provision.

only a thought...

FunJohnny · June 17, 2004

in abominable distressing times such as these, i furtively wish that this county's servicing would sail back over the ocean blue and admit the europeans (ok i can only speak for the germans, french and english) are far more accomplished in this touchy issue than their progeny; for the record, servers in the aforementioned countries (though this practice has begun to wane given the recent frightening aping of america by some europeans) are paid a WAGE, much as most people. TIPS are EXTRA, meaning that if i believe i have been the recipient of exceptional service resulting in an exceptional experience, i will make it known with a postprandial pecuniary provision.
only a thought...

Having lived in a country where service y compris, I had the occasion to consider whether it was better to leave the tip amount up to the patron or automatically build it into his/her bill. Here's where I came down: Frog Prince makes the point correctly that in most cases where the servers are paid a salary for their work as servers and have an interest in patrons returning to the establishment where they are employed they provide good service. Where this scheme goes awry is the touristy places -- outdoor cafes and such that operate during the months when the tourists are swarming, or the eateries located near major attractions, don't expect the same customers to return and therefore often don't give a crap what kind of service is provided. This problem is compounded by the fact that the servers employed at these kind of places are seasonal and don't count on long-term employment either. For an American visitor subjected to shoddy service and then finding that he's forced to tip (most bills specifiy the built-in gratuity) this is infuriating.

Edited June 17, 2004 by FunJohnny (log)

redfox · June 18, 2004

In defense of Liam, having your food be missing a critical component is one of the worst "service-ee" foodie failures. It is so sad to have been looking forward to eating certain things together and have to either wait until the one that did arrive on time to go past its prime or eat the foods out of their harmonious union!

sdelgato · June 18, 2004

First off I AM NOT DEFENDING CRAPPY SERVICE. That said, I sometimes feel indifferent/lousy service can, keyword can, begin with indifferent/lousy clientele. The axiom you get what you give really does apply in some cases. I actually got lousy service in one of my favorite haunts for the first time and was appalled, until I got home and realized I probably got what I deserved because of the mood I was in. My wife confirmed it. Sometimes it is inevitable... It is the waiter/host/whatever. They lost that connection ALL service employees must carry with them at all times. But I swear, sometimes people have it coming...

Chef Shogun · June 18, 2004

That said, I sometimes feel indifferent/lousy service can, keyword can, begin with indifferent/lousy clientele.

I'll take that one further and offer that while bad service can taint an evening, fellow diner's reactions to the bad service can make it outright unbearable, far worse than the origonal service flaws.

I was with family visiting from out of 'state', eating at Cafe Deluxe on Wisconsin up by the Cathedral. From the start, it was clear that our waiter more than likely had not learned his trade under Charlie Trotter or at The French Laundry. We had to ask about the specials, for example, after waiting for a while for him to come around. Nothing Earth-shattering. To this day I'm not even sure what happened. We got our entrees, and one of the people (a non-relative, but a friend, and a local) with us just begins snarling about something or other. I think he was overlooked for a wine refill (Possible Contributing Factor Number One: neither the first, nor the second) while another was offered one. All through dinner he was grumbling to his partner about this slight, making things fairly uncomfortable for the rest of us, between the complaining, and glaring at the waiter at every opportunity. Dessert and coffee was ordered, and again, some slip that went unnoticed by the rest of us sent this guy into into a fury. When the waiter returned, he was immediately torn into. It was horrible! I felt so bad for the guy I think I slipped an extra $2 into the tip just out of pitty. He really wasn't that bad, over all! Definately shaped up as we went. If I remember, our dining companion even brought the matter up with his good friend, the manager (PCF Number Two: Near-daily patronage of this restaurant).

Now, I understand if a long record of good service sets up a high level of expectations, but there's no reason to overreact and ruin the evening for the rest of your companions.

Take home message: The way a customer reacts to poor service is every bit as important as the reaction of the house.

Minister of Drink · June 18, 2004

That said, I sometimes feel indifferent/lousy service can, keyword can, begin with indifferent/lousy clientele.
I'll take that one further and offer that while bad service can taint an evening, fellow diner's reactions to the bad service can make it outright unbearable, far worse than the origonal service flaws.
I was with family visiting from out of 'state', eating at Cafe Deluxe on Wisconsin up by the Cathedral. From the start, it was clear that our waiter more than likely had not learned his trade under Charlie Trotter or at The French Laundry. We had to ask about the specials, for example, after waiting for a while for him to come around. Nothing Earth-shattering. To this day I'm not even sure what happened. We got our entrees, and one of the people (a non-relative, but a friend, and a local) with us just begins snarling about something or other. I think he was overlooked for a wine refill (Possible Contributing Factor Number One: neither the first, nor the second) while another was offered one. All through dinner he was grumbling to his partner about this slight, making things fairly uncomfortable for the rest of us, between the complaining, and glaring at the waiter at every opportunity. Dessert and coffee was ordered, and again, some slip that went unnoticed by the rest of us sent this guy into into a fury. When the waiter returned, he was immediately torn into. It was horrible! I felt so bad for the guy I think I slipped an extra $2 into the tip just out of pitty. He really wasn't that bad, over all! Definately shaped up as we went. If I remember, our dining companion even brought the matter up with his good friend, the manager (PCF Number Two: Near-daily patronage of this restaurant).
Now, I understand if a long record of good service sets up a high level of expectations, but there's no reason to overreact and ruin the evening for the rest of your companions.
Take home message: The way a customer reacts to poor service is every bit as important as the reaction of the house.

Word up on that. I had a similar experience with a date -- at dinner, water and bread service was a little slow. Thereafter, she just snarled loudly with petty requests/rebukes at anyone who dared approach the table. I felt quite embarrased as did some of the other patrons around us. Needless to say, I ended the evening as fast as I could and issued her marching papers. Fat Frank was simply not ever going to be in the mood for her after that.

Even if the service at any place is totally crap, one should not be overtly nasty. It's just bad form. You can send your message via the tip... or lack thereof.

DCMark · June 18, 2004

You can tell alot about a prospective mate by they way they treat the help at a restaurant.....

TarteTatin · June 20, 2004

Having been in and out of the service business for many years, I would say that there is no excuse for bad service. And as I've gotten older, I've become far less tolerant of it.

Not to say that I will have a 'bad night' and therefore not be as charming to the server as I could be. That being said, they are not my friends, nor do I want them to be.

I want them to answer my questions, take my order and bring me my food and drink in a timely fashion. Granted that occasionally, actually more than occasionally, the kitchen is at fault when things don't go as smoothly as possible. In that case I do not blame the server.

However, I do blame the server when it is obvious that I'm being rushed in the, 'Order, eat fast, pay, get out' mode of a good many restaurants. Even after I've let them know that I want the meal to proceed at my pace. And I really don't care about turning the table. I've heard all the arguements about turnover and they don't move me. I'm paying for the meal, the wine and the service as rent for the evening. (I'm not speaking here about the $5 breakfast place)

However, if the service is bad, then the tip will be commensurate with the service.

Both of us worked in restaurants for a combined total of 30 years, plenty of time to learn the ups and downs of dealing with the public. That, of course, is one of the reasons we no longer work in restaurants.

"Can I have the sauce on the side?"

"Of course, Madam. Here, let me just pour it into your lap"

"Give me a Glenfiddich and ginger ale."

"Here's the Glenfiddich. Here's the ginger ale. Now, eff it up yourself." That's when we left.

I can still tell, after an absence from the front of the house for 10 years, when a place is 'in the weeds' and will leave and find another restaurant.

And if the service sucks by my estimation, I'll stiff the waiter. But if the service is good, they'll get 20-30%.

sara · June 20, 2004

You can tell alot about a prospective mate by they way they treat the help at a restaurant.....

Word. (ha!)

Yeah, I kinda think it's somewhat reflective of a boy's relationship to his mother. If you're used to being treated like crap, then being treated that way won't surprise/upset you that much. BUT, if mommy dearest doted on you, and always made you your fave meals and served it exactly how you liked it, then you expect the same, ALWAYS. Oh, I know I'm gonna take some flack for saying that, but I think it's true. I am always so pleasantly surprised when I get good, or great, service (i.e. when Jared cut the crusts off my bread at Nectar) that it's like a huge bonus--but I never expect it or feel entitled to it. Maybe that says more about me, the customer, tho, huh?

That said, I do feel entitled to respect--outright disrespect from a server is something different...Again, reference my sexist experience at Salt.

Edited June 20, 2004 by sara (log)

dcfoodie · June 20, 2004

Having worked in a restaurant as a bus boy, host, waiter and an ice cream scooper, etc, etc, I am very patient with wait staff. Most people I know that are really impatient with wait staff are people who have never worked in a restaurant. The fact is that there are so many things that can go wrong between the time the waiter takes your order and they bring your food out. More times than not, the mishap is not the waiters fault.

There are some times though, that problems that arise are obviously the waiters fault, but no one is perfect. The only time I tip less than 20% is when it is obvious to me that the waiter is being lazy. Like when I have to wait 20 minutes for my check, because my waiter is socializing, and I am the only one in their section.

LittleWing · August 22, 2004

I agree with a lot of what people are saying here. I'm also a server/bartender (fine dining), and I too expect a high level of service when dining out. Service can be just as important as the food in creating one's dining experience. If something is not as I'd like it, I ask my server to fix it. That said, I like to think I'm forgiving of human error as well.

So how can one make his or her dining experience better with a server who is obviously "having a bad day," (even though that should be no excuse)? I agree that being nasty or rude in return will just make the level of service worse. However, if the message is being sent by a lousy tip or lack thereof, this doesn't give your server any opportunity to fix the problem(s).

It is possible to respectfully ask your server to fix something without being nasty. And, by being aggressive, you might elicit even more nastiness from the server. You know the expression "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? Well, if the server is rude, I'll usually say something along the lines of, "You seem stressed. Has tonight been very busy?" That (or something like it) should politely send the hint that you are not being given the consideration you deserve. Of course there is always the chance that the server will be rude and disrespectful in return, but at least you know that you gave him or her a chance.

In all, there's a better way to let the server know that you are unhappy before leaving a small or nonexistent tip -- communication between both parties will result in greater satisfaction on both ends.

Edited August 22, 2004 by LittleWing (log)

frogprince · August 24, 2004

In all, there's a better way to let the server know that you are unhappy before leaving a small or nonexistent tip -- communication between both parties will result in greater satisfaction on both ends.

such advice need not be confined to the dining realm, me thinks...

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