America's Barbeculture: Who Owns It?

[robyn]

...i wonder if this is entirely a matter of history and vague historical justice. after all it isn't just that black people may not have gotten the historical credit they deserve for certain traditions...

I just don't get it. Best I can figure out - "native Americans" invented the cooking technique. Spanish explorers came up with the original word. And lest we forget - pigs (the current haute cuisine of BBQ) came from Asia and Europe:

"HISTORY

It is thought that the common American pig is a descendant of two wild swine. History shows us that one European species of hog bred with a Southeastern Asian hog and were domesticated in China some 9000 years ago. Europeans continued the breeding process until Christopher Columbus introduced the domesticated animal into the States in 1493."

Are we so parochial as Americans that we think there was no history before 1776? This looks like a quintessential US "melting pot" thing to me. Why do people who are many many generations removed from the original (and who had nothing to do with original) fight? Let's be glad we have so many people in this country who took the basics and worked at perfecting them - and take it from there. Robyn

[robyn]

Also, Robyn, the Big Apple Barbecue Block Party didn't have panel discussions instead of barbecue, but in addition to barbecue, so had you come to it, you could have chosen to simply eat the cue and listen to music, and skip all of this "silliness."

I live in the south. Why would I go to NY to eat BBQ? Per Se and dim sum - yes. BBQ - no . Robyn

[robyn]

Robyn's point is very interesting. Has the tradition of barbacoa continued in Hispaniola in a way that can be clearly traced back to the style reported on by early European visitors to the island?

Hispaniola of course includes both the Dominican Republic (which you don't read about very much) - and Haiti (which is in the papers all the time). As far as Haiti goes (and Haiti is a "big deal" in Florida because of the large local Haitian population) - the last article I saw in the NYT about food mentioned that the people were eating some kind of cake in which a major ingredient was dirt. So I don't think most people there are too worried about BBQ traditions these days <sigh>. Robyn

[jhlurie]

...i wonder if this is entirely a matter of history and vague historical justice. after all it isn't just that black people may not have gotten the historical credit they deserve for certain traditions...

I just don't get it. Best I can figure out - "native Americans" invented the cooking technique. Spanish explorers came up with the original word. And lest we forget - pigs (the current haute cuisine of BBQ) came from Asia and Europe

Well this is exactly the point, isn't it? It's not only irrelevent in some ways, it's also fraught with peril of further acrimony and myth creation. I have no doubt--none at all--that Elie and Walsh's picture of African slaves cooking barbecue while white slave owners looked on is probably pretty accurate, just as I have no doubt that the BQ ranch (be it real or imaginary) had no real role in the affair. Elie and Walsh are right to clear the air on this, although it's probably wrong to talk about this as if it's proof of origin. And obviously it's dangerous to try and take some kind of historical justice TOO far, because then the line will eventually form up behind you with other claims.

[robyn]

Well this is exactly the point, isn't it?  It's not only irrelevent in some ways, it's also fraught with peril of further acrimony and myth creation.  I have no doubt--none at all--that Elie and Walsh's picture of African slaves cooking barbecue while white slave owners looked on is probably pretty accurate, just as I have no doubt that the BQ ranch (be it real or imaginary) had no real role in the affair.  Elie and Walsh are right to clear the air on this, although it's probably wrong to talk about this as if it's proof of origin.  And obviously it's dangerous to try and take some kind of historical justice TOO far, because then the line will eventually form up behind you with other claims.

Agreed for the most part.

And let me add another factor. Post civil war - and up until very recently - a large part of the south - black and white - was poor. Politicians don't serve grits and grunts at events like the 4th of July picnic because they're a culinary delicacy. They serve them because that's what a lot of people remember growing up eating (much like my family has its traditional "hard times" dishes). And when there's an "expensive" ingredient - like shrimp - in local dishes - it's because they're local and people could go out and catch them for free.

I don't think a lot of people here had a lot of money to spend on the pork, beef or chicken that I see in BBQ these days. So is this just another case of the "elite" watching blacks and whites from poor backgrounds (or blacks and whites pretending to have poor backgrounds) fight another fight that isn't worth fighting about (there's sure a lot of that in the history of the south).

By the way - as we say here - I ain't got no dog in this fight. My family didn't move to the south until 40 years ago - and the few Jewish families I know who have lived here for over 100 years had ancestors who kept Kosher (a lot were traveling salespeople - and when they were on the road - about all they'd eat was hard boiled eggs - the most Kosher thing you could eat in a non-Kosher environment). Robyn

[Suzanne F]

And I agree it's kind of a silly argument.  I'd rather go to a BBQ cooking demo or contest than a seminar where a lot of people fight about who invented the technique.  I care more about eating well than having politically correct thoughts about food.

. . .

P.S.  If anyone reads the translation I cited - you'll see references to barbacoa cooking of little birds.  Whoever got the idea that real BBQ doesn't include chicken is inaccurate historically!

Actually, nobody on the panel was fighting, only some people here. What they all said was there are many theories, none of them 100% verifiable. If you'd been there, you'd know that. But then, you don't get to NY much.

[robyn]

Actually, nobody on the panel was fighting, only some people here. What they all said was there are many theories, none of them 100% verifiable. If you'd been there, you'd know that. But then, you don't get to NY much. 

You're right. I don't. The last time I was in New York was on 9/11. A "pleasure" trip - my 30th anniversary. It was a very unpleasant experience for a variety of reasons I won't repeat here (although I can't fault the staff in the hotel where I was staying - they were champs). I had been through disasters before - like Hurricane Andrew - where over 100,000 houses were rendered uninhabitable (including mine for a while). So it wasn't the tangibles - it was the intangibles. All things considered - I'd prefer riding out a disaster in Miami than in New York. And when I go to big cities these days - I find myself gravitating to places like London.

As for the event in New York - this caught my eye:

3:00-3:45 p.m. All-Star Barbecue Sauce Tasting

An informative and entertaining tasting of the award-winning sauces featured at this year's Big Apple Barbecue Block Party, from three of our country's leading authorities on taste.

Colman Andrews, moderator, editor-in-chief, SAVEUR

Jeffrey Steingarten, author, The Man Who Ate Everything

Calvin Trillin, author, Feeding a Yen

Whatever I think of these people - I find it hard to believe that a city of millions couldn't come up with someone slightly more authentic to render opinons about BBQ sauce. When I think of BBQ experts - Steingarten and Trillin don't exactly come to mind (I'm not familiar with Andrews). But I guess they cover H to Y (Harvard to Yale) - and that passes for expertise in all manner of things in New York . Robyn

[Jaymes]

That's why I found Elie's remarks funny - because he's right that some people think the way he described. If any of you haven't seen footage of Bill Cosby's standup acts in the 60s, check it out some time. He cracked up audiences by making jokes about race relations. Those jokes were funny for much the same reasons - there was truth contained within the humor.

That's how I took his remarks as well--humor, parody, and a bit of potential audience-baiting to get things stirred up.

I can vouch for one thing--his being right on-target about white people crossing the tracks to get their barbecue from black people.

Yes, and I know of at least one black-owned BBQ joint that even used that in their ad campaign: "'Crosstown BBQ' -- Because even white folks drive crosstown to get it."

And another interesting thing, to me anyway, are the different 'sides' offered from the various cultures. I like Sweet Potato Pie for dessert after a BBQ meal. That's ubiquitous in African-American joints, but usually unavailable in places with different cultural influences. And then there's the "sweet baked beans" vs "BBQ pinto beans," and the myriad types of cole slaw and potato salad. Not to mention the famous smoked-meat temples of Central Texas that, having been established by German immigrants as butcher shops and meat markets, offer no sides at all.

[phaelon56]

I just don't get it.  Best I can figure out - "native Americans" invented the cooking technique.

If "the technique" means cooking meat of one sort or another over a wood fire, I'm sure it predates written and oral history in many parts of the world.

I was not fortunate enough to attend the event in NY and although sidebar activites such as the panel discussion are interesting enough for many, my reason for attending would have been the presence of so many styles from widely disparate geographic regions, all represented in one place over two days by some of the acknowledged pitmasters of the business. Sure.... I could duplicate that experience by getting in the car and driving, but to get first hand taste of some of the best of Texas, NC, Memphis and assorted other areas all in one day? I think it would be worth a visit. That said.... I hate wading through crowds and don't regret missing this year's event for that reason.

[robyn]

That said....  I hate wading through crowds and don't regret missing this year's event for that reason.

I'm not a crowd person either. The Miami Beach food festival got some negative press because a lot of people who had paid good money for the event thought it was just too darned crowded.

In response to an earlier message about sweet potato pie - it's really common in the south - and not just at African American BBQ places. Perhaps it's more common in African American BBQ restaurants in other parts of the country because the people who own/cook in those establishments are from the south. That said - it's yummy - and everyone has a favorite recipe (including me). Robyn

[Suzanne F]

Actually, nobody on the panel was fighting, only some people here. What they all said was there are many theories, none of them 100% verifiable. If you'd been there, you'd know that. But then, you don't get to NY much. 

You're right. I don't. The last time I was in New York was on 9/11. A "pleasure" trip - my 30th anniversary. It was a very unpleasant experience for a variety of reasons I won't repeat here (although I can't fault the staff in the hotel where I was staying - they were champs). I had been through disasters before - like Hurricane Andrew - where over 100,000 houses were rendered uninhabitable (including mine for a while). So it wasn't the tangibles - it was the intangibles. All things considered - I'd prefer riding out a disaster in Miami than in New York. And when I go to big cities these days - I find myself gravitating to places like London.

As for the event in New York - this caught my eye:

3:00-3:45 p.m. All-Star Barbecue Sauce Tasting

An informative and entertaining tasting of the award-winning sauces featured at this year's Big Apple Barbecue Block Party, from three of our country's leading authorities on taste.

Colman Andrews, moderator, editor-in-chief, SAVEUR

Jeffrey Steingarten, author, The Man Who Ate Everything

Calvin Trillin, author, Feeding a Yen

Whatever I think of these people - I find it hard to believe that a city of millions couldn't come up with someone slightly more authentic to render opinons about BBQ sauce. When I think of BBQ experts - Steingarten and Trillin don't exactly come to mind (I'm not familiar with Andrews). But I guess they cover H to Y (Harvard to Yale) - and that passes for expertise in all manner of things in New York . Robyn

In spite of the time spent by Jack Hitt describing the politicization of mustard-based sauce in South Carolina, the panelists seemed to agree that sauce is not what barbecue is about. Not at all. And if you had read William McKinney's post on Do NYers get bbq?, you would figure out that a sauce tasting is just a sideshow, not connected with the essence of barbecue.

As for the participants: Calvin Trillin is a native of Kansas City -- not exactly terra incognita for barbecue; and one of Jeffrey Steingarten's favorite cities for eating, according to his bio in The Man Who Ate Everything is Memphis (presumably, not the one in Egypt). As for Colman Andrews, as far as I can tell, he may originally be from California, and currently living in Connecticut, but he WAS one of the editors behind Saveur Cooks Authentic American, so I assume he has his taste in his mouth. The first two happen to be among the wittiest people writing about food these days (or not writing about food, in the case of Trillin ), and all three could be described as fairly obsessive about food. And all three are big draws for panel discussions. So why not them?

[Mayhaw Man]

Actually, Trillin has spent lots of time writing about BBQ (mainly KC style, but it's still BBQ ) and I agree that he is well qualified.

Steingarten knows meat and once again, should be pretty well versed in the subject of styles and he has written a fair amount about the subject, as well.

[Fat Guy]

It could easily be argued that Calvin Trillin has done more to popularize the barbecue culture nationwide than any other writer. Among other things, he was the leading champion of Arthur Bryant, and has written so many articles on barbecue that I lost count a decade ago. Steingarten too has written at length about barbecue and judges barbecue competitions. Colman Andrews' magazine engages in much barbecue advocacy under its "savor a world of authentic cuisine" mission. But what all three panelists have in common, even more so than niche barbecue knowledge, is that they sit at the apex of the food media pyramid. It would be virtually impossible to assemble a panel with three bigger names on it. And I was glad to have Colman on the barbeculture panel because he presented a broader perspective than the rest of the panelists -- which is exactly why you might want to have the editor of a major national food publication on such a panel.

[Suzanne F]

This is deeply OT, but:

The last time I was in New York was on 9/11.  A "pleasure" trip - my 30th anniversary.  It was a very unpleasant experience for a variety of reasons I won't repeat here (although I can't fault the staff in the hotel where I was staying - they were champs).  I had been through disasters before - like Hurricane Andrew - where over 100,000 houses were rendered uninhabitable (including mine for a while).  So it wasn't the tangibles - it was the intangibles.  All things considered - I'd prefer riding out a disaster in Miami than in New York.

Robyn, may you never, ever, ever have to "ride out" a disaster of the enormity of either event, anywhere.

[robyn]

This is deeply OT, but:

The last time I was in New York was on 9/11.  A "pleasure" trip - my 30th anniversary.  It was a very unpleasant experience for a variety of reasons I won't repeat here (although I can't fault the staff in the hotel where I was staying - they were champs).  I had been through disasters before - like Hurricane Andrew - where over 100,000 houses were rendered uninhabitable (including mine for a while).  So it wasn't the tangibles - it was the intangibles.  All things considered - I'd prefer riding out a disaster in Miami than in New York.

Robyn, may you never, ever, ever have to "ride out" a disaster of the enormity of either event, anywhere.

OT too. In retrospect - the reason I think I dealt with Hurricane Andrew better than 9/11 was Miami was - at the time - my home - no matter how messed up it was (and it was messed up for a long time). If you've lived someplace for a long time - it's almost always easier to get the things that have to be done done when faced with a disaster. The things you have to do for yourself - your friends - your community (and most things were menial - e.g., trying to find water up north in Palm Beach and trucking it back to friends who weren't mobile). You just know the ropes. And it's useful psychologically to be busy - in fact busy to the point of exhaustion - at times like that.

There is really nothing tourists in New York could have done on 9/11 - except pack our stuff and walk into Queens if we were so inclined - and I wasn't (I suspect a lot of people who live in New York couldn't do anything either). So we had a lot of time to think - and the more one thought - the more one got depressed.

All in all - they are situations for complicated feelings.

Thanks for your thoughts - and back to BBQ. Robyn

P.S. My travel history is a bit cursed. I was also in the "Hurricane of '87" in Oxfordshire (UK). In the mountains of Spain in the early 80's when interest rates crashed. In Italy when the Achille Lauro was hijacked. On the road on I-10 in Louisiana when the space shuttle exploded. In Wyoming when the Iraq Iran war started. I used to do a lot of work on a trading oriented site - and they had an RGV (Robyn G. vacation) indicator. Everyone was "heads up" about their market positions when I went on a trip. They made fun of me. It's a wonder I still travel! But life is short - and good experiences beckon. I'm sure I'll make it back to New York one of these days (can't miss the Diane Arbus exhibit at the Met next year - can I?).

[robyn]

In spite of the time spent by Jack Hitt describing the politicization of mustard-based sauce in South Carolina, the panelists seemed to agree that sauce is not what barbecue is about. Not at all. And if you had read William McKinney's post on Do NYers get bbq?, you would figure out that a sauce tasting is just a sideshow, not connected with the essence of barbecue.

I think my point about the BBQ sauce I use was simply that there are African Americans who aren't content to bitch about the appropriation of their heritage (whether or not the bitching is justified). There are of course many who have BBQ restaurants (and we have our local ones). But this was the first time I'd run across a sauce sold in major supermarkets that was made by a private company owned and run by African Americans. I suspect the distribution is still local - but it's a good sauce - and I hope a big company buys them out and they make a lot of money .

I do agree that sauce is a sideshow. And - with most decent BBQ I've had - it is therefore only served on the side . Robyn

[robyn]

But what all three panelists have in common, even more so than niche barbecue knowledge, is that they sit at the apex of the food media pyramid. It would be virtually impossible to assemble a panel with three bigger names on it. And I was glad to have Colman on the barbeculture panel because he presented a broader perspective than the rest of the panelists -- which is exactly why you might want to have the editor of a major national food publication on such a panel.

Suzanne basically made the same point in somewhat different words.

I had a hard time figuring out exactly what rubbed me the wrong way about this. So I thought a bit - and read a bit. And I ran across an old article in salon.com (could have been slate but I think it was salon) that described a food seminar a while back where Steingarten was a panelist (or perhaps the only speaker). And the gist was that here was a member of the media who was giving a presentation mostly to members of the media (or at least it was packaged for the consumption of media members in the audience).

This is not the same as "the blind leading the blind". But it is a fairly closed circle. People who write about food talking about food primarily for the sake of other people who write about food. And then the people who write about food write about the people who write about food talking about food.

So you get these seminars and food festivals which feature the same "talking heads" - endlessly. They're either the speakers - or writing what the speakers say - and then the writers become the speakers. The mobius strip of contemporary food events.

I've used the small number of frequent flyer miles I have in some soon to be defunct airlines to subscribe to a bunch of food/wine magazines. And there are tons of ads for these events. And it's almost always the same people (there is also a cast of "celebrity chefs" - they're the "dancers" in the productions).

As a lawyer - I believe there's an unfortunate tendency to elevate lawyers to the heights of "food-dom" - probably because a fair number tend to write well - and speak well. So I guess they'd be good on panels where people want to be entertained. On the other hand - a fair number of chefs - especially newer younger ones - tend to be not so literate. The current issue of Food and Wine details its opinions of the best new chefs of 2004. For a fair number - it was a choice between becoming a carpenter and a chef.

I try to talk with chefs when I go to restaurants I especially like - if they have the time. Did so on this last trip to London. I don't think these people would be witty panelists - but they can teach you a lot about running a professional kitchen (from a lot of points of view). It's instructive - and I suspect I have more to learn from them about the professional food industry than I have to learn from Steingarten - who after all - is just another Harvard educated lawyer like me (although I pay for my meals and Vogue pays for his).

Perhaps the operative phrase here is - those who can't do - pontificate? Agreed this panel is a "good draw". But so is Wayne Newton. Robyn

P.S. The salon article had Steingarten smoking big cigars while he was cooking at home. I frankly can't imagine a serious food person doing that.

[Fat Guy]

There's an article by Julia Moskin in today's New York Times dining section making the case for New York's Chinese restaurants' share of the barbeculture. Worth perusing, and I should note that the non-review articles like this one tend to pass into the premium archive rather quickly so don't delay.

New York does have its own thriving barbecue tradition, but it's more about star anise than smoke. At places like Big Wong King and Kim Tuong in Chinatown, pit masters turn out hundreds of racks of magnificently glazed ribs every day, with the moist meat, salty-sweet perfume and burnt edges so beloved of barbecue fanatics across the land. And at other Asian restaurants up and down the dining scale, from Nam and 66 to Big Wong and Pig Heaven, chefs have capitalized on New Yorkers' passion for Chinese spareribs by developing their own styles. With judicious spicing and steaming, a glaze here and a dry rub there, Asian ribs have evolved into a hybrid Asian-American-New Yorkese barbecue.