What's Wrong with our Food?

[MobyP]

In today's Guardian, a collection of articles on the failures of the food industry.

Malcom Gluck writes about England's wines...

Hsiao-Hung Pai - "Immigration crackdown in Chinese kitchens serves up jobs crisis for restaurants."

"Whereas in most other parts of western Europe it does not require much money to eat well, in Britain good food is still the preserve of a minority of expensive restaurants and specialist retailers, writes Andrew Anthony."

And Polly Toynbee: "Mostly the middle class stays the right side of dangerously obese. In the highest echelons, those superthin lettuce-eaters Tom Wolfe calls the social x-rays know that thinness radiates high status, as surely as bound feet did in old China. "You can't be too rich or too thin," said Dorothy Parker. But fat means poor and out of control.

[FaustianBargain]

thanks for the links. i think they merit a discussion. i'll skip on the wine and the illegal chinese labor for now

re polly toynbee..

I completely agree. obesity is definitely a 'class' problem. times have changed since mr.creosote* exploded after a 'wafer-thin mint'...food was a status symbol..when food was scarce and dear, status was reflected by one's girth...as food becomes plentiful(meaning that even the poorest man neednt go hungry), what distinguishes the rich from the poor is the *quality* of food rather than the quanitity

It is inequality and disrespect that makes people fat: obesity took off 25 years ago, up 400% in the years when inequality has exploded. People will only get thinner when they are included in things that are worth staying thin for. Offer self-esteem, respect, jobs or some social status and the pounds would start to fall away.

a sweeping statement...toynbee pushes it a tad here..disagree somewhat..

Of course, we need tough labelling laws and a ban on advertising junk to children in schools and on TV. It's a disgrace that there are virtually no safe cycle lanes in cities. Every school needs great dance, aerobics, sport and fun in after-school clubs. It's shocking the government is so craven about controlling the excesses of the food and drinks industry. But let's not fool ourselves: only a genuine drive towards a society that doesn't leave out a quarter of its citizens will send the bathroom scales tipping in the right direction.

ridiculous...that would be a police state..and the crippling of free enterprise...many a healthy child has fallen into bad eating habits upon reaching adulthood...education is the one and only solution to all of social ills...put a person on a cocaine diet and the pounds will come off...starve someone for 3 weeks and inequalities be damned, the ribs are ready for the counting...

*meaning of life - monty python

andrew anthony's article was much better..but same vein..

[MobyP]

I received this via pm re: the article on illegal immigrants:

"From what I understand it is very difficult/nigh on impossible to return Chinese illegal immigrants to China due to the Chinese governement often refusing to recognise that the people being returned are Chinese (they always dispose of their passports when they arrive in Britain) so I doubt immigration officials would waste their time and energy raiding chinese restaurants."

[FaustianBargain]

I received this via pm re: the article on illegal immigrants:

"From what I understand it is very difficult/nigh on impossible to return Chinese illegal immigrants to China due to the Chinese governement often refusing to recognise that the people being returned are Chinese (they always dispose of their passports when they arrive in Britain) so I doubt immigration officials would waste their time and energy raiding chinese restaurants."

oh! from what i have read..china will happily take back the illegal immigrants...not that its much comfort knowing its poor record of human rights....(and why do they get rid of their passports when they land in britain??) remember when russia was red and 'i defect' were the two most liberating words one could utter...or so it was thought...most first world countries dont have any provision to take in economic refugees...UTism is hardy and political ideology will die a quick death when one perceives the threat of one's resources shared by 'aliens'...having said that and having read the article...some questions...is chinese food so cheap that the illegal labour subsidises the cost of food to the consumer...whats in it for the chinese restaurant owner...volume sales? doesnt make sense...is it a question of one exploiting one's own?

[MobyP]

The former poster (who wishes to remain anonymous), apparently has some connection with the immigration service, and reiterates that they would rarely target illegal Chinese workers due to the massive difficulties removing them.

Presumably the immigrants destroy their paperwork because

the Chinese simply will not co-oprate and issue them with [new] papers so that they can be returned home.

But (to return to food and restaurants). is this only an issue for Chinese restaurants, or do we see this organised behaviour in other parts of the catering industry?

[John Whiting]

I received this via pm re: the article on illegal immigrants:

"From what I understand it is very difficult/nigh on impossible to return Chinese illegal immigrants to China due to the Chinese governement often refusing to recognise that the people being returned are Chinese (they always dispose of their passports when they arrive in Britain) so I doubt immigration officials would waste their time and energy raiding chinese restaurants."

If only! I sent the Guardian article to one of Britain's most eminent Chinese chefs and cookery writers and received the following reply:

Many thanks for sending me the article. I must tell you an incident that happened a few weeks ago.

XXXXX is my family's favourite local Chinese restaurant, and I go there at least once a week for lunch, usually by myself, and with friends and family for dinner at the week-ends. Over the years, I've got to know the owner and the staff well, and the food has always been very good. . . .

Imagine my surprise when I pushed the door open one lunch time, and was confronted by a uniformed policewoman (I could see another policeman standing next to her) who said to me: "What's your name?" I was taken aback and quickly told her my name. She then said: "Do you work here?" to which I replied: "No. I'm coming here to have lunch." Then she said: "We are not letting anybody in at the moment; come back in an hour's time." All this was said in what I would describe as a rather unfriendly manner. My immediate reaction was that there must have been a serious crime - such as murder or armed robbery - so quickly went back home and opened a tin of sardines for lunch.

I telephoned the owner in the afternoon to find out what happened, and he told me that it was a routine ID check, and that they didn't find anybody working illegally. But the next time I went there to eat, I noticed that at least three Mandarin speaking staff were gone - the rest of the staff are all Cantonese from Hong Kong, with my favourite lady from Vietnam, who has worked there for at least ten years now.

There was a report on the Breakfast News the other day, showing an empty Chinese kitchen with one person working, and the reporter said there used to be five people working there.

What will happen next will be a price increase in all Chinese restaurants, plus poorer service and maybe even poorer quality in cooking!

[FaustianBargain]

The former poster (who wishes to remain anonymous), apparently has some connection with the immigration service, and reiterates that they would rarely target illegal Chinese workers due to the massive difficulties removing them.

Presumably the immigrants destroy their paperwork because

the Chinese simply will not co-oprate and issue them with [new] papers so that they can be returned home.

But (to return to food and restaurants). is this only an issue for Chinese restaurants, or do we see this organised behaviour in other parts of the catering industry?

i dont understand what you mean by 'organised behaviour'...by whom...the immigration authorities cracking down on illegal labour?

[origamicrane]

hmmm..

this is a touchy subject for me.. but they say knowledge isn't good or bad just depends what you do with it. So here goes in no particular order.

Ok illegal Chinese immigrant dispose of their passports so they can't be identified by the authorities. This makes it very very difficult for them to deport them if they don't know where to deport them to.

If the illegal immigrant refuses to co operate by identifying themselves they can't get deported. Oh yeah they could end up in jail but many of them back in china are living in poverty as such jail isn't a major detterent.

Ok let have some background on these illegal immigrants. They come from poor areas of China they pay extortionate amounts of money to gangs and face life threatening danger to be smuggled into the country ( the dover tragedy with the 50 dead immigrant in a container)

When they get here they have to repay their debt to the gangs and send money home to their families and all the time they still face being exploited as they have no legal status and speak no english (look at the 20 dead cocklers in morcambe bay).

Even if they do find a job here they are isolated with no family or friends and faced with the endless boredom of working in a restaurant many fall into heavy gambling and borrowing from lone sharks being charged 10% interest a week!!!

If they borrow more then £2000 they will never be able to repay the interest.

It used to be, over a decade ago that a few illegal immigrant would work in the uk for 5 years and save enough money to return to China and retire on that money. Naturally these stories spread to other villages and the promise of money to the poor is a very big carrot, compare the American gold rush.

China won't accept these illegal imigrants back if the UK authorites can't prove they are from China, why you may ask? Well China population is already too big and these illegal immigrant are sending valuable foreign currency back into China so there is no benefit for China to make the deportation process easy for the UK. In fact the more of them that are in the UK the more money that will get into China.

Ok the Chinese restaurants in the UK have little option but to hire these illegal immigrant due to finances. Skilled legal chinese chefs are rare and their wages would be double of that of an illegal immigrant. And yes having a cheap labour force reduces the cost to the consumer. Although whether the quality is better is questionable as most of them are unskilled. As to exploiting ones own? yes i suppose it is in one light but in another sense if these people aren't working they will get involved in more criminal activities and these people are begging to be employed.

Yes this illegal labour permeates the entire catering trade not just chinese restaurants.

The illegal labour trade has become too established now and the only thng that could stop them trying to get into uk is if it isn't financial worth it anymore.

[Winot]

Ok the Chinese restaurants in the UK have little option but to hire these illegal immigrant due to finances. Skilled legal chinese chefs are rare and their wages would be double of that of an illegal immigrant. And yes having a cheap labour force reduces the cost to the consumer.

And so, we should be paying more for our Chinese meals.

[origamicrane]

I think you will find illegal immigrants all through the low skilled and manual labour industry.

You find illegal labourers picking the fruit and veg in the fields, butchering the meat, moving crates at the markets, carrying the cargo at ports, doing the deliveries, cooking in the kitchens, cleaning the toilets, stacking shelves in the cash and carries.

If they did away with all illegal labourers i think prices would rise in general for most consumer goods and services.

Just an additional thought about the exploiting ones own people

(i'm not supporting either side just making an observation)

even if these illegal immigrant earnt less then the UK minimum wage they are still probably earning 10 times more then they could back in their home country and one weeks wage here will feed their family for a month.