Fulton Fish Market, R.I.P.

[SethG]

Many writers have decried the trend-- now decades-long-- of cities moving their downtown wholesale food markets out to the fringe. Much lamented, yet never to return, are Les Halles in Paris and Manhattan's own West Side Market, which was demolished in the Sixties to make way for the World Trade Center. (May it, too, rest in peace.)

When the West Side Market was moved to Hunts Point, many of the smaller vendors there were forced out of business by the new, higher rents in the Bronx. They were also hurt by the loss of street traffic and walk-in business. In addition, the "modernization" offered in the Bronx allowed for more refrigeration of food (on the face of it a good thing), which in combination with decreased traffic led to the sale of older, less fresh food. Manhattan restauranteurs, who would often make personal trips to the West Side Market, were much less likely to travel to the Bronx, leading to much less hands-on involvement with the food being purchased for the customers.

More intangible, but no less important, was the loss of a living, working part of New York's heritage.

Now I know that there aren't a whole lot of walk-in retail sales going on at the Fulton Fish Market. So the analogy isn't perfect. But I would think that many of the above criticisms might well apply to the anticipated move of the fish market to Hunts Point in 2005.

Yet I just did a Google search on the subject, as well as a search here on eGullet, and I can't find much of any opposition. I find "end of an era" stories, but not much else.

Am I missing something, or is this thing happening with nary a peep of dissent? And WHY is there no dissent, given the way such moves in the past have been viewed by many as mistakes? I haven't researched this issue in depth, but I've just been struck by how this thing is really happening, and I sincerely want to know: why is this move good for us?

(And, in addition, I wonder if we might organize an eGullet pilgrimage to the market one day at 5 a.m., before it's gone. Any interest?)

[mikeycook]

Speaking on a personal basis, I am thrilled that the stench of old fish will no longer be part of the neighborhood. Standing to the north and west of the market is not the type of thing that makes you want to eat fish.

[docsconz]

I would be interested if the timing were right. I think a good fresh fish market is a wonderful thing. I think a little character of lower Manhatten wil be forever lost.

[alacarte]

When does it officially close?

I've done the early AM pilgrimage to the Fulton fish market (I work nearby) -- it's fascinating. It's also quite smelly, be prepared. The people who live nearby are thrilled with the closing -- their real estate will skyrocket without the stench of fish.

[SethG]

The people who live nearby are thrilled with the closing -- their real estate will skyrocket without the stench of fish.

The neighbors will get a windfall when it goes, sure. But that stench has been there for what, 200 years? They can't claim to have been unaware when they moved in.

Edited April 26, 2004 by SethG (log)

[Fat Guy]

The one downside I can think of is that Chinatown's fish vendors may be inconvenienced. Other than that, it's hard to think of ways in which this move will damage anyone. The Fulton Fish Market is a primitive facility, which can only operate at night, has very little modern technology, is offensive to the neighborhood, is difficult for trucks to access, and is too small to handle the throughput. Chefs don't shop there, consumers don't shop there, and the fresh fish trade is only a limited part of what goes on there -- it seems primarily to be a distribution center for frozen fish.

Hunts Point is convenient to I-95 and is a modern facility dedicated solely to food distribution. The economies of scale, the location, and every other apparent factor seem to favor this move. I don't know how much corruption, drug dealing, and organized crime still go on at the Fulton Fish Market, if any, but the move would certainly help on that front as well.

It seems to be the inevitable course of history that industrial, warehouse, etc., businesses will be pushed out of Manhattan. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have them here. As long as moving them out isn't accomplished by abuse of eminent domain or other shady practices, it doesn't bother me.

[SethG]

The one downside I can think of is that Chinatown's fish vendors may be inconvenienced.

Couldn't this potentially have huge consequences for Chinatown fish shoppers, both in Manhattan and Brooklyn?

Steve, how do the small vendors feel about the move, if you know? (Are there any?)

[SethG]

The Fulton Fish Market is a primitive facility, which can only operate at night, has very little modern technology, is offensive to the neighborhood, is difficult for trucks to access, and is too small to handle the throughput. Chefs don't shop there, consumers don't shop there, and the fresh fish trade is only a limited part of what goes on there -- it seems primarily to be a distribution center for frozen fish....  Hunts Point is convenient to I-95 and is a modern facility dedicated solely to food distribution. ...  It seems to be the inevitable course of history that industrial, warehouse, etc., businesses will be pushed out of Manhattan. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have them here. As long as moving them out isn't accomplished by abuse of eminent domain or other shady practices, it doesn't bother me.

You know, I'm a little surprised at the complacency of the eGullet community regarding this move.

Steve's arguments may be correct in this instance, and I didn't start this thread thinking we'd mount an actual fight to save the fish market. I figure it's much too late to stop the move.

But these arguments are exactly the same ones that doom every great civic monument, from Ebbet's Field to Penn Station to, well, Les Halles. It is always the case that the ancient, traditional place of doing business is too small, is hard for some folks to get to, and is in need of modernization. This to my mind is but one factor to balance against what ought to be our presumptive interest in preserving such places.

Is it really true that chefs don't shop there? This is contrary to what I've read before.

And as for the "inevitable course of history" argument, I really don't know if it's so inevitable. We have the city we create and deserve, and if it is our desire to have that city be one in which nothing exists below 96th Street except for apartments that sell for more than one million dollars, then we're well on our way.

Maybe the fish market is a total stink pit that's of no use to anyone. But I suspect that's just the official story. I'm currently on a leave of absence from my job, but I work near Chinatown, and when I return June 1st I'm going to start asking the fish vendors in Chinatown how they feel about this thing.

[oakapple]

Steve's arguments may be correct in this instance....

But these arguments are exactly the same ones that doom every great civic monument, from Ebbet's Field to Penn Station to, well, Les Halles. It is always the case that the ancient, traditional place of doing business is too small, is hard for some folks to get to, and is in need of modernization. This to my mind is but one factor to balance against what ought to be our presumptive interest in preserving such places.

But the Fulton Fish Market is not a great civic monument, or even a monument of any kind. It's a wholesale fish market, and assuming Fat Guy's comments to be correct (which I have no reason to doubt), not even particularly well suited to its function. And besides, you write as if redevelopment is always presumptively a mistake, and I wouldn't make that presumption. Progress isn't always backwards.

[SethG]

But the Fulton Fish Market is not a great civic monument, or even a monument of any kind. It's a wholesale fish market...

And Penn Station was just a rail yard.

Look, I know the fish market isn't some grand work of architecture, but many commercial entities become civic monuments regardless of their architectural merit, or even their continued functionality as commercial entities. The New York Stock Exchange is such an entity. If they moved to New Jersey, but left their building in lower Manhattan standing, it would still be a tragic loss of a part of New York's heritage.

Hell, if they even did what most markets in the world have done, and abandoned their trading floor in favor of computerized transactions, the effect would be much the same. I'm not saying they don't have the right to do these things if they wish. I'm just saying that longstanding businesses (if they're lucky) can become valuable institutions, a part of the city fabric, and that when they do carry such status the things that they do affect more than just their own bottom line.

All this isn't to say that I think the Fulton Fish Market does not function. No one has said anything to make me think it doesn't function just fine.

I've tried to be careful. I'm not criticizing or disagreeing with Shaw, necessarily. I know he's researching a book and that this research has taken him to Hunts Point, where I have never been. I've never visited the Fish Market.

But I think we should think critically about this, and that the past gives us cause for skepticism. That's all.

[Rake Yohn]

But the Fulton Fish Market is not a great civic monument, or even a monument of any kind. It's a wholesale fish market...

I've never visited the Fish Market.

Doesn't that sort of answer your own question? You've never been, but it will be missed as a part of the fabric of the city?

Seems like going there would have been the first step toward determining how the neighborhood and city would be affected.

[SethG]

Doesn't that sort of answer your own question? You've never been, but it will be missed as a part of the fabric of the city?

Seems like going there would have been the first step toward determining how the neighborhood and city would be affected.

I've been there. What I meant was that I've never bought fish there at four in the morning. And no, I don't think I have to buy fish there at four in the morning to think that something significant, and remember I mean not only culturally but also commercially, may be lost when it's gone.

Is it so unseemly to ask a few tough questions?

[Fat Guy]

Seth is asking important questions. I happen to think he's barking up the wrong tree on this one, but everybody will benefit from learning the answers to his questions. I would certainly be interested to learn whether or not there is vendor or retailer opposition to the move, and why.

Just to work on the analogies a bit more, the Fulton Fish Market isn't even a building. It's just a concept. Every night they set it up, using ice as refrigeration, and every morning they dismantle it, leaving only the smell behind (plus a few service shed type structures along the side of the area). It becomes a parking lot, as I recall.

Operationally, as far as I can tell, it's mostly just a place where boxes of frozen fish get transferred from bigger trucks to smaller trucks, or from bigger trucks containing all of one type of frozen fish to other big trucks containing multiple varieties of frozen fish.

Not only do chefs and consumers not shop there, but also they're not even allowed in without special passes and permissions or an escort by a licensed wholesaler/distributor.

So I don't see any landmark-type historic preservation issues here, and I don't see any particular community involvement (with the possible exception of the Chinatown fish vendors who are in close proximity to the Fulton Fish Market and will likely need to switch to motorized transport from Hunts Point). Which is not to say there won't be some commercial alteration to the area when the Fulton Fish Market relocates. I just think it will be an overall positive move with far fewer negative repercussions than any of the analogized events.

[SethG]

Thanks, Steve, for your reply. That is useful info.

I definitely had a misconception or two about the market-- I certainly have seen photo essays on the place, which contained picture after picture of what I thought was fresh fish. I was worried before you even mentioned it about the effects on Chinatown. My presumption was that the fish vendors in Chinatown get much of their fresh fish from the Fulton Fish Market. If this was in error, then there's not a lot to talk to them about. On the other hand, if they do rely on that market to any large degree, then we could see a big change in the well-stocked, underpriced fish stores in Chinatown.

Edited April 27, 2004 by SethG (log)

[alacarte]

Is it so unseemly to ask a few tough questions?

NEVER!!!

[jhlurie]

I suppose the undignified three word answer to "why isn't there an uproar" is "Because it stinks!"

I suppose this is a case where holding on to the past is a bit unhealthy. Was the old Madison Square Garden a needed landmark when it became unusable? Will the lovely features of the Jacob Javits Center be missed if a new convention center is built? Was the Bowery okay as Skid Row because it was made famous that way?

The Fish Market's hold on history is somewhat dubious. It's been mentioned in a lot of Mob movies. That's about all I can think of.

Really, the battle here--if there is one--should be over what happens with that very useful piece of real estate. Do we really need more expensive condos?

[Fat Guy]

There's fresh fish at the Fulton Fish Market. It's just that I get the impression the high-quality fresh-fish business is something that takes place around the periphery. And there are definitely Chinatown vendors getting fresh fish there -- I've seen them there with their grocery carts wheeling it back to their stores. But I really don't know very much about the Chinese side of the market. I've been there with a distributor, but the white-people part and the Chinese part are somewhat segregated.

[docsconz]

I've been there with a distributor, but the white-people part and the Chinese part are somewhat segregated.

Now this is interesting. Does anyone know more about this?

[Fat Guy]

Someone with Lexis could probably dig up the New York Magazine article they did a few years ago, where the guy from Jake's took the writer around the fish market. I think that piece had some discussion of the racial divide down there.

[Pan]

Today's New York Newsday has an "Interactive look at Fulton Market's move to Bronx." It's first under "Special Packages," toward the bottom of the page that will open when you click the link above.

[enrevanche]

Anyone interested in Fulton Fish Market history would do well to pick up a copy of Joseph Mitchell's "Up In The Old Hotel." Mitchell, a revered writer for The New Yorker back in the day, used to hang out down there, befriended a number of people who worked in and around the market, and wrote some brilliant stuff, both fiction and non-fiction, about it.

[SethG]

Thanks for that link, Pan. That's a wonderful feature on the fish market. In the video feature, there's a vendor who says he doesn't like change, etc., but then adds "if they give us everything they promise us, everything [with the move] will be fine."

Yet the accompanying stories emphasize only the state-of-the-art new facility and the sentimental angle. I'd really like to know more about what these vendors (many of them apparently "little guys") are worried about, and what they've been promised.

[Suzanne F]

I have a vague recollection of an attempt many years ago to move the market to a computerized system, physically at Hunts Point. Can anyone confirm or deny?

As a nearby-but-not-nextdoor neighbor to the market, I will miss it. When the smell is strong and the winds are from the east, I get it, and love it. Back in '95 or '96, there was a big fire in the market building above the stalls, and the whole area smelled like whitefish for a few days. In fact, I walked past yesterday morning, around 10:30, and happily breathed it in.

It might have been slightly less bothersome since the hours were changed a couple of years ago, for the folks who live close by. Property values may rise with the market gone, but remember that the East Side Highway is still there, and it's not going anywhere, nor is the parking under it. And the tourist buses will still idle, park, and load and unload.