An interface between the two languages

[nuppe]

Understood. (hope you didn't think I expected help with all the recipes). In one way I guess I should hire people for stuff like this, but there are not always budgets for that.

On the other hand I would say that this thread could also be counted as exchange of recipes and food knowledge. To my knowledge using capelin/smelt this way is a rather new thing, and I thought it might be a little interesting(for those who know about and are able to get capelin....) But I'm a newcomer, so I will of course listen to what you say and adjust my way.

But this is great! Now I see that there are fishes also at my mackerel hook!(question about mackerel kirimi) Terrific!

[melonpan]

well, its still killing me, so i was wondering if anyone would be game for just a very very rough translation from japanese into english. its only fifteen seconds...

following this chosun ilbo link click on the movie link near the top of the page. for those who cant see the korean characters, thats fine, just look for the second occurance of "CF" on the page and click on that. the movie should buffer up and start to play (in IE). once its started playing, please forward to minute two. the part i wish to understand is from 2:00 - 2:15 of the movie. its the final segment of the film featuring the principal. it was not translated into korean and i just wanted to know what is happening. no need for exact translations.

thank you most sincerely in advance,

melon

(original query happened in the nomimono thread)

[Hiroyuki]

Translation:

It's summer vacation!

Principal!

Student: Message from the principal!

Principal: Starting from tomorrow, you are supposed to have summer vacation..., but because of you being late for school and dozing off (during class), you have extra time, and we will continue the first term!

(Note: The sign says the extra time is 15 days. In Japanese school systems, we have three terms, first, second, and third.)

All students: Oh, no!

Fanta Sappari Peach is released!

***

I will be away for a few days. I will be on my vacation. Bye!

[melonpan]

thank you hiroyuki~!

apparently this is in reference to something called "lose time" (at least in korea and probably in japan... but i dont know anything about soccer. what would this be called in english? in korean it is "루스 타임" [ru-seu ta-im]) in soccer games where the ref keeps track of 'lost' time and the players are able to play those lost minutes at the end...

thanks again

[mona]

Um, do you mean "extra time?"

[melonpan]

Um, do you mean "extra time?"

have no idea. i dont know anything about soccer, really. i suppose extra time sounds good!

[Hiroyuki]

I have just come back from my summer vacation.

As you say, extra time sounds good. In Japanese, we call it rosu taimu.

For your reference, here is a copy of the results of a search with Eijiro:

検索文字列 : ロスタイム

該当件数 : 8

ロスタイム

added time〔サッカーの〕

ロスタイム

extra time // injury time

ロスタイム ；《サッカー》

stoppage time

後半のロスタイム

second-half injury time

前半のロスタイムに ；《サッカー》

in the injury time of the first half

ロスタイムに決勝点を決める ；《サッカー》

grab the winner in extra time

ロスタイムに入って＿分後に ；《サッカー》

__ minutes into injury time

ロスタイムに入ってわずか＿秒でXを打ち負かした。

It needed only __ minutes of extra time to beat X

Eijoro on the Web:

http://www.alc.co.jp/

[Hiroyuki]

Call me a fool and answer my question.

How do you pronounce eGullet? I joined this forum six months ago and I still don't know for sure how to pronouce it.

Thanks.

[Pan]

Believe it or not, there's a two-page thread called "What syllable do you emphasize in eGullet?"

[Laksa]

what would this be called in english?  in korean it is "루스 타임" [ru-seu ta-im]) in soccer games where the ref keeps track of 'lost' time and the players are able to play those lost minutes at the end...

←

I have heard it referred to as "stoppage time" as well as "injury time" in the soccer commentaries I've followed.

Edited to add: Duh! I didn't see that Hiroyuki has already answered your question.

Edited September 11, 2004 by Laksa (log)

[Hiroyuki]

Believe it or not, there's a two-page thread called "What syllable do you emphasize in eGullet?"

←

Oh, boy! I don't believe this... I have to post my question there...

Thanks, Pan.

[torakris]

I have decided to pin this topic so that it doesn't get lost in the forum and will be easier to find.

[Hiroyuki]

In response to a question in the 'nakashoku' thread:

The reason why nakashoku sounds strange to native Japanese is that it is a word with ‘yutou yomi’.

IN JAPANESE (not in Chinese), almost all Chinese characters have two types of pronunciation, Japanese one (kun yomi) and Chinese-derived one (on yomi).

Yutou yomi pertains to a combination of two Chinese characters the first one of which is pronounced in the Japanese way and the second of which in the Chinese-derived way.

Yutou, meaning ‘hot-water pot’, is pronounced this way, hence yutou yomi (= reading).

On the contrary, juubako yomi pertains to a combination of two Chinese characters pronounced the other way round; the first one is pronounced in the Chinese-derived way and the second in the Japanese way.

Juubako, meaning ‘multitiered box’, is pronounced this way.

中食, if pronounced chuushoku, would be interpreted to mean ‘lunch’ (昼食, same pronunciation), and this is why it is usually pronounced nakashoku.

[melonpan]

IN JAPANESE (not in Chinese), almost all Chinese characters have two types of pronunciation, Japanese one (kun yomi) and Chinese-derived one (on yomi)...  ...中食, if pronounced chuushoku, would be interpreted to mean ‘lunch’ (昼食, same pronunciation), and this is why it is usually pronounced nakashoku.

korean always pronounces chinese words with onyomi. there is no kunyomi equivalent. because of all the chinese loanwords in korean, there are a heck of a lot of homonyms (in chinese those same words would more likely have different tones) and if you have to, you have to guess words from context. i wonder why kunyomi did not develop in korea.

when kanji is written, its clear what the word is. spoken japanese is of course different. lets say though, that there is no kunyomi, just like in korean. i am sure one can guess what word is being talked about from context despite homophones; so one might wonder the opposite, why did kunyomi develop in japan to the extent that it has?

[Hiroyuki]

Homonyns are a problem in Japanese, too. I didn't know you have the same problem in Korean.

Now to the main issue:

For one thing, it's not hard to imagine that in learning Chinese characters, ancient Japanese memorized both the pronunciation (in Chinese) and the meaning (in Japanese) of each character at the same time, which is thought to have led to the development of on yomi and kun yomi.

More importantly, because of the great difference between the Chinese and Japanese languages in all aspects such as pronunciation and word order, ancient Japanese developed an ingenious system for assisting in interpreting Chinese text, called kun doku (reading in the Japanese way), which calls for kaeri ten (return marks) and okuri gana (declensional endings written with Japanese phonetic characters).

Let me explain how the system works, using a very simple English sentence.

_wa _su _o

I love you.

____レ

wa, su, and o are okuri gana and レ is a return mark called 're ten'. (Ignore the underscores; they are merely inserted to put the characters where they should be.)

This system helps the reader interpret the sentence into I-wa you-o love-su and into a final Japanese equivalent, watashi-wa anata-o ai-su.

This system is thought to have further contributed to the development of on yomi and kun yomi.

For a further explanation of return marks, refer to the following:

http://www.jekai.org/entries/aa/00/np/aa00np08.htm#Sense1

***

Made some corrections.

Edited September 28, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[Palladion]

Quick question:

I was invited to the home of one of the junior high students here for dinner. The father is a captain of a fishing boat, and manages to get lots of seafood from Hokkaido. It was a wonderful meal.

Anyway, they served something called "hoya" which I've tried, unsuccesfully, to look up. It was yellow-ish, slippery, and slimy. It's a seafood of some type, again from Hokkaido, I believe. They mentioned shiokara while talking about the dish, but I didn't catch whether they were comparing it to shiokara or saying that it was a type of shiokara or what. I don't suppose anyone knows what hoya is?

-------

Alex Parker

[Hiroyuki]

Quick answer: It must be ホヤ.

http://www.kankou-miyagi.net/cgi-bin/ss_de...ntry=eng&ef=lst

http://www.pref.iwate.jp/~hp5507/hoya/hoya.htm

(Japanese only)

[Palladion]

Quick answer:   It must be ホヤ.

http://www.kankou-miyagi.net/cgi-bin/ss_de...ntry=eng&ef=lst

http://www.pref.iwate.jp/~hp5507/hoya/hoya.htm

(Japanese only)

←

Ah, yeah, that must be it! It was cut up small and served in a pungent yellow liquid. No one really ate more than a taste of it, including the Japanese people that we were dining with.

Thanks, Hiroyuki.

-------

Alex Parker

[Hiroyuki]

Just a thought.

While reading this thread http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=15704 , I was a little surprised that everyone described green tea as bitter. I know it is perfectly all right in English to use the term bitter to mean astringent, but in Japanese, we clearly distinguish between nigami (bitterness)/nigai (bitter) and shibumi (astringency)/shibui (astringent). Thus, ryoku cha (green tea) and kaki are described as shibui, while coffee and chocolate are described as nigai.

I found a table that you may find useful:

http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/me...2oEOn-E0Ny.html

[Hiroyuki]

I don't know how many of you are interested in learning Japanese, but this site contains a wide variety of links.

http://www.nmt.edu/~armiller/japanese/japanese.htm

Do you know of any other good sites?

[torakris]

Just a thought.

While reading this thread http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=15704 , I was a little surprised that everyone described green tea as bitter.  I know it is perfectly all right in English to use the term bitter to mean astringent, but in Japanese, we clearly distinguish between nigami (bitterness)/nigai (bitter) and shibumi (astringency)/shibui (astringent).  Thus, ryoku cha (green tea) and kaki are described as shibui, while coffee and chocolate are described as nigai.

I found a table that you may find useful:

http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/me...2oEOn-E0Ny.html

←

Hiroyuki,

thanks for that chart and information, I wouldn't thought to use the word shubui to describe tea, I would definitely have said nigai....

Actually I would use bitter to describe all of those (coffee, chocolate, tea, wine and bamboo) and I have never heard the word egui before. What else could egui be used to describe?

[Hiroyuki]

What else could egui be used to describe?

←

The following are some of the results of a google search with egui:

Zuiki, kuwai, sansai (wild plant), spinach, shungiki, sato imo, yama imo, tochi no mi, gobo, soy milk, potato, sweet potato, coffee, cheese, hoya, tea, and melon (I'm not joking ).

This site http://www.earthlanguage.org/dic/39.htm defines egui pretty well:

no English word for this taste ( Egui in Japanese): a kind of toxic taste like a green part of potato: it's not bitter, sour, hot or astringent, but perhaps your tongue wants to hang 'down' from your mouth.(えぐみ、えぐい)

Decent people like us (I'm joking ) should avoid the use of egui in everyday conversation altogether. Young people often use the word to mean ひどい (bad, terrible). For them, the word is quite similar to egetsunai in meaning. Refer to http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/4814/osaka/a.html. In fact, some of them seem to think that egui comes from egetsunai (which is totally false).

Instead, we should use the noun egumi like this:

Egumi ga (or no) aru/nai/tsuyoi/ooi/sukunai　えぐみが（or の）ある／ない／強い／多い／少ない

[torakris]

but perhaps your tongue wants to hang 'down' from your mouth.(えぐみ、えぐい)

←

This part I can understand!

got it! thanks.

[_john]

I have a question about kansui water. Someone told me this is an important part of making ramen noodles. I found this page with an illustrated recipe at the bottom. So my question is: what is kansui water and is it a standard ingredient in ramen noodles?

[Hiroyuki]

I think that your question deserves a whole new thread and also deserves to be posted in the China Forum. Anyway, I wonder if the following link will satisfy you:

http://www.irma-world.com/inpaku/english/0...bo/0101/02.html

All I know about kansui is that it's indispensable part of ramen making although you can make kansui-free ramen by adding eggs.

See the link below:

http://www.ajiwai.com/otoko/make/ramen.htm

(Sorry, Japanese only)

How about this general description of ramen:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ramen

And how about this site, run by BON, who is now a legacy participant in this forum :

http://www.worldramen.net/

Hope this helps.