Pâte de Fruits (Fruit Paste/Fruit Jellies) (Part 1)

[Kerry Beal]

Those look wonderful.

I cook to 107 then check the brix to make sure it's 75.

[John DePaula]

I'll just add thermometers are often inaccurate. Is it possible that your thermometer is off a bit? When I cook mine to 107C, they're always at 75Brix; but I always check both ways.

[cmflick]

I check on two thermometers and haven't had any problems with too soft pate de fruit until I started trying the apple juice recipes. I have checked both thermometers and one is dead on and the other reads a degree lower than it should (checked against boiling water). I always compensate for the degree off on that thermometer. I suppose that I could try cooking to a higher temperature than Boiron recommends. I don't have a refractometer, so alas I can't check the brix.

[sote23]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

[Kerry Beal]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Kerry Beal (log)

[sote23]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

←

I do it that way as well, but if I were going to use just fruit juice what would be the formula? I may just do an experiment tonight.

That reminds me, I need a good refractometer. you said you bought one on ebay, and I took a look, but there are many different ones. Which model did you wind up getting?

Luis

Edited January 30, 2009 by sote23 (log)

[Kerry Beal]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

←

I do it that way as well, but if I were going to use just fruit juice what would be the formula? I may just do an experiment tonight.

That reminds me, I need a good refractometer. you said you bought one on ebay, and I took a look, but there are many different ones. Which model did you wind up getting?

Luis

←

Here is the one I got. It's for honey - brix is 58 to 90. I got one defective unit - but they replaced it with no argument.

[sote23]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

←

I do it that way as well, but if I were going to use just fruit juice what would be the formula? I may just do an experiment tonight.

That reminds me, I need a good refractometer. you said you bought one on ebay, and I took a look, but there are many different ones. Which model did you wind up getting?

Luis

←

Here is the one I got. It's for honey - brix is 58 to 90. I got one defective unit - but they replaced it with no argument.

←

thanks kerry, that's a great price.

Luis

[Edward J]

I've been hankering to make a maple syrup Pdf, but have no idea of how to go about it. Might just have to swallow my pride and start buying those wierd chemicals and start with the "spherification" of giant maple syrup "caviar" and then enrobe them in 70% dark.

Did try the new Boiron recipies, was not amused. The apple juice is a hassle and waters down the flavour of the main fruit. Threw the printed recipies out and went back to the old style ones. This week I made a decent mandarin PDF (taking Boirons old recipie for bitter orange and upping the pectin by 7-8%) and also tried out my new "molds" for PDF.....

I wanted a half-slice of mandarin PDF, so I took lengths of 11/2" PVC pipe and split it down the middle, taped on some end caps and lined it with silicone paper. Poured in my Mandarin PDF and within 3 hrs it was ready to slice. Sliced it on my cookie guitar--giving me cute little 3/8" thick half mooon slices which I enrobed in dark couveture. This time I had the foresight to take some pictures, but I am at a complete loss of how to post photos on this website. Kerry was asking me about the cookie guitar in anothe thread, so I could post her the photos privately

[cmflick]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

←

Do you have a recipe for making wine or other "non-viscous" liquid pate de fruit, i.e. the two stage process? There used to be one on the Boiron site, but it doesn't seem to be there anymore since they posted the apple juice recipes.

[cmflick]

Has anyone made pate de fruit with just fruit juice and no puree? How would I addjust accordingly?

Luis

←

Never with pure fruit juice. I've used a neutral puree as the base, then wine or other non viscous liquids in the second stage. 112ºC for first stage 107º C and 75 Brix for second stage.

←

Any idea as to what the purpose of the two stage cooking is?

[Tri2Cook]

I've been hankering to make a maple syrup Pdf, but have no idea of how to go about it.  Might just have to swallow my pride and start buying those wierd chemicals and start with the "spherification" of giant maple syrup "caviar" and then enrobe them in 70% dark.

←

Might be worth a try if you don't need shelf life as part of the formula. Spherifications, "regular", "reverse" and even the cold oil/agar type seem to quite often suffer from syneresis. Not sure what a layer of liquid between the chocolate and sphere would do to quality and shelf life but probably nothing good.

[cmflick]

I'm back working on the new apple juice Boiron recipes yet again. I noticed that the Boiron pate de fruit recipe calls for "glucose". Other recipes on the Boiron website call for either "atomized glucose" (e.g., sorbets) or "glucose syrup" (e.g., fruit ganaches). I have been using glucose syrup in making pate de fruit, but am wondering about the ambiguity in the recipe just calling for glucose when other Boiron recipes specify either atomized glucose or glucose syrup.

Is glucose syrup the right thing to be using?

This will be round 3 with the apple juice recipes. I got a refractometer from ebay (one of those inexpensive ones from Hong Kong), so this time I'll be checking both temperature and brix.

[Kerry Beal]

I'm back working on the new apple juice Boiron recipes yet again.  I noticed that the Boiron pate de fruit recipe calls for "glucose".  Other recipes on the Boiron website call for either "atomized glucose" (e.g., sorbets) or "glucose syrup" (e.g., fruit ganaches).  I have been using glucose syrup in making pate de fruit, but am wondering about the ambiguity in the recipe just calling for glucose when other Boiron recipes specify either atomized glucose or glucose syrup.

Is glucose syrup the right thing to be using?

This will be round 3 with the apple juice recipes.  I got a refractometer from ebay (one of those inexpensive ones from Hong Kong), so this time I'll be checking both temperature and brix.

←

I'm pretty sure the glucose syrup is what you want.

[cmflick]

Well, I've learned a lesson about making pate de fruit.

In my first attempts at cooking pate de fruit using the Boiron apple juice recipes I relied on two thermometers to tell me when I hit the goal of 107C. Both batches were much, much too soft. I finally broke down and bought a refractometer and tried a Boiron apple juice recipe again. I had to cook to 110C in order to get 75 brix! This time the consistency of the pate de fruit seems to be excellent.

I had tested both thermometers at the boiling point of water and they appeared to be pretty accurate (one reads off by a degree and the other is dead on). So, I guess that I'm a convert that you need a refractometer to make pate de fruit.

[lebowits]

I've just started making PDF and am using the new Boiron forumlas (with apple juice) for reference. One question I've not seen discussed yet is this:

The Boiron formulas call for "caster sugar" which as I understand it is something akin to what we here in the US call "confectioners sugar"; both being very finely ground sugars but with the latter containing a bit of corn starch as an anti-clumping agent.

Does the type of sugar really matter here? Obviously, a more finely ground sugar would melt into solution faster during cooking, but with the temp going to 107C I can't see that it is really important.

Any thoughts?

[John DePaula]

I've just started making PDF and am using the new Boiron forumlas (with apple juice) for reference.  One question I've not seen discussed yet is this:

The Boiron formulas call for "caster sugar" which as I understand it is something akin to what we here in the US call "confectioners sugar"; both being very finely ground sugars but with the latter containing a bit of corn starch as an anti-clumping agent.

Does the type of sugar really matter here?  Obviously, a more finely ground sugar would melt into solution faster during cooking, but with the temp going to 107C I can't see that it is really important.

Any thoughts?

←

Look for something called 'Bakers Sugar,' though you should be ok with regular granulated sugar as well.

[Kerry Beal]

I've just started making PDF and am using the new Boiron forumlas (with apple juice) for reference.  One question I've not seen discussed yet is this:

The Boiron formulas call for "caster sugar" which as I understand it is something akin to what we here in the US call "confectioners sugar"; both being very finely ground sugars but with the latter containing a bit of corn starch as an anti-clumping agent.

Does the type of sugar really matter here?  Obviously, a more finely ground sugar would melt into solution faster during cooking, but with the temp going to 107C I can't see that it is really important.

Any thoughts?

←

I'm with John on this one - just use regular sugar (since you are doing it by weight anyway) - you don't want the confectioners or icing sugar - the starch will interfere.

[cmflick]

I've just started making PDF and am using the new Boiron forumlas (with apple juice) for reference.  One question I've not seen discussed yet is this:

The Boiron formulas call for "caster sugar" which as I understand it is something akin to what we here in the US call "confectioners sugar"; both being very finely ground sugars but with the latter containing a bit of corn starch as an anti-clumping agent.

Does the type of sugar really matter here?  Obviously, a more finely ground sugar would melt into solution faster during cooking, but with the temp going to 107C I can't see that it is really important.

Any thoughts?

←

You can grind regular granulated sugar in a food processor and get something similar to caster sugar. I'm with John and Kerry, though. It's probably not worth the effort, since the sugar will dissolve when you're cooking anyway. I use regular granulated sugar.

[tan319]

Caster sugar is similar to cocktail or superfine sugar.

I've found that CM brand in the carton is very fine.

At work, I use whatever global corporation's sugar we order from.

As lond as it's cane, not beet.

[lebowits]

Thanks for your responses. I have another container of mango puree thawing for my second attempt.

Of course, it never occurred to me before reading one of Kerry's posts that I could make a half batch! That will be my 2nd modification.

[lebowits]

With my first stab at PDF on the cut and the 2nd on the shelf "curing", I decided it was time for an experiment. I was a bit unhappy with the "soft" texture of the 2nd slab, even after nearly 48 hours.

So based upon some of the previous posts in this thread I took a more critical look at the new formulas (with apple juice) posted by Boiron. Using the mango puree as my test case, the base formula consists of:

               grams          % total
Puree        1000            29.85%
Sugar         150             4.42%
Pectin         30             0.88%
Apple Juice   500            14.75%
Sugar        1350            39.82%
Glucose       290             8.55%
Acid           30             0.88%

The method described is thus:

1. Combine puree and apple juice in a pot and bring to a boil whisking continuously to prevent scorching

2. Combine first sugar and pectin to prevent clumping in the pot and add to the boiling pot

3. Add glucose to boiling pot

4. Add remaining sugar in stages

5. Cook mixture to 107C

6. Add tartaric acid if needed, remove pot from heat, and pour into prepared frame

What was noticed in a previous post is that the pectin is recommended to be between 1% - 1.5% of the total product weight. This formula has just 0.88% of the product weight in pectin which could very well be why my PDF came out soft.

The other possible explanation for the soft texture is that I need to cook it to a higher temperature. Wanting to test the theory, I decided to adjust the formula to bring the pectin weight higher. The new weights I used are:

               grams          % total
Puree        1000            29.50%
Sugar         250             7.37%
Pectin         50             1.47%
Apple Juice   500            14.75%
Sugar        1250            36.87%
Glucose       290             8.55%
Acid           50             1.47%

The method requires that the pectin be combined with 5 times it's own weight of sugar so that it inhibits clumping when it is added to the pot. In order to keep the total sugar weight stable, I moved the additional sugar from the 2nd listing up into the first.

All of the pectin used is apple (E440) pectin.

Results

So, for this first experiment, I made a 1/2 sized batch using the ratios above using the exact same method.

As I cooked the mixture prior to adding the acid, it became noticeably thicker, which seemed to me to be the pectin beginning to set. When this happened, I also noticed that the measured temperature of the pot seemed to stabilize at about 103C. I can only guess that this is not entirely true as I continued to cook over the same heat as before. My theory is that the thickened mixture didn't transmit the heat well and thus I could not accurately measure the temp.

After realizing the that the mixture had thickened considerably and that I was not getting valid temperature readings, I added the acid (more for completeness than anything else) and poured the mixture into my frame. The viscosity of the mixture prevented it from pouring evenly so I did my best to spread it out using my whisk and then a silicone spatula.

I sprinkled sugar on top of the cooling mass and am waiting for it to come to room temp. I can already tell that it has a different consistency, but again for completeness will give it the full 48 hour curing time so I can have a valid comparison.

I'm thinking that the next variables to test could be one of:

1. Reduce the pectin level to between 1% - 1.25% and see if that allows me to complete the cooking process

2. Substitute "yellow" pectin which takes longer to set and thus might give me more time.

3. Bite the bullet and get a refractometer no matter what else I do.

Now I just need to get more mango puree so I can finish these experiments.

Anyone have comments or suggestions?

Edited May 22, 2009 by lebowits (log)

[lebowits]

After my last post, I went to cut my first experimental slab which had been made using the specified "new" Boiron formula. After curing for 48 hours, it was still extremely soft.

I applied fresh sugar to coat both sides of the slab and placed it onto my guitar. The first cut went reasonably well but I could tell the pieces were very soft and would be difficult to move.

I slid the plate under the cut pieces so I could rotate them together 90 degrees to make the other cut. The pieces started to fall out of shape very quickly but I managed to get them back onto the guitar, but any semblance of a square was pretty much gone.

After making the 2nd cut I tried removing some of the individual pieces to toss them in sugar. They pretty much started coming apart in my hands, with gooey, sticky bits coming off rather easily and making quite a mess.

I wound up tossing the whole batch and spending the next 20 minutes cleaning.

On the the next one.

[cmflick]

I routinely use the Boiron "apple juice" recipes with the pectin increased to between 1 and 1.1%. The consistency is excellent. I also broke down and bought a refractometer. With the refractometer, I discovered that I was cooking to only about 106C, i.e., my thermometer was off by a degree C. I think that it's important to make sure that you get to 75 brix, whether by temperature or refractometer. With increased pectin and using a refractometer, the Boiron "apple juice" recipes consistently come out well.

I'm also using slow-set pectin. After trying this, I would never go back to regular apple pectin for making PdF. The slow-set pectin gives plenty of time to pour a slab or use a mold. I couldn't use my mold before I started using slow-set pectin. The PdF just started to set too fast.

[lebowits]

I routinely use the Boiron "apple juice" recipes with the pectin increased to between 1 and 1.1%.  The consistency is excellent.  I also broke down and bought a refractometer.  With the refractometer, I discovered that I was cooking to only about 106C, i.e., my thermometer was off by a degree C.  I think that it's important to make sure that you get to 75 brix, whether by temperature or refractometer.  With increased pectin and using a refractometer, the Boiron "apple juice" recipes consistently come out well.

I'm also using slow-set pectin.  After trying this, I would never go back to regular apple pectin for making PdF.  The slow-set pectin gives plenty of time to pour a slab or use a mold.  I couldn't use my mold before I started using slow-set pectin.  The PdF just started to set too fast.

←

Thanks for the feedback. I've ordered more mango puree so I can conduct a few more experiments. I'll definitely try the slower setting pectin in the next round.