Pizza Depression

[Fat Guy]

The loss of Polistina's got me thinking about pizza. Why is there no good pizza in my neighborhood? Was it really the case, when I was a kid, that every neighborhood had several competing pizzerias serving admirable slices? Or is that just a nostalgic fantasy? I can't stand the thought that I have to hike all the way to Candido's, and support the mean people who work there, in order to get acceptable pizza within walking distance of my home.

[zeman]

I feel the same way & don't even live in the City anymore. But I'm there often & generally walk out of most pizza joints I walk into or just don't go.  They are mostly horrible, undercook their pizzas, don't even heat the slices that much and have cardboard cheese.

My current best find is a place called Rosa's Pizza in Garfield. Thin crust, good sauce & just the right amount of cheese. And they make some good heros too.

When I was 16 I became a pizza man & even though I am now 48 I still consider myself a pizza man & like riding a bicycle you never forget. I made GREAT pizza and after reading your post I got to thinking that I should look into opening a place of my own! Then I know I'll be eating great pizza.

[foodboy]

Northeast corner, 33rd and 3rd.

[Rachel Perlow]

Quote: from Fat Guy on 12:52 am on Feb. 7, 2002

Was it really the case, when I was a kid, that every neighborhood had several competing pizzerias serving admirable slices? Or is that just a nostalgic fantasy?

This reminds me of when I had pizza with my parents a few years ago. It was ordered from the same place we used to always order from when I lived there. I commented that it wasn't as good as I remembered, did the place change hands? My mom said she didn't think the pizza had changed so much as I had. My taste has improved. Getting pizza as a teenager was more about hanging out with friends than actually eating pizza. On a Saturday night we might even have ordered from Dominos and thought it really good. It was during college that I started insisting on getting pizza from the local joint rather than Pizza Hut or another chain (although Sbarro's was pretty good back then, the food at that chain has definitely declined as it expanded its empire).

Now to contradict myself, I'm also sure that there's been a decline in the quality of the pizza as well. I remember reading an article somewhere about how the "Pizza Industry" (probably one of the aforementioned chains) had conducted studies and discovered that the public at large couldn't even tell the difference between real mozzarella cheese and whatevery it is that they now use. I suppose this mostly speaks to the chain restaurant dictum that caters to the lowest common demoninator; however, I've heard that a lot of independently owned pizza restaurants also now use that fake cheeze.

Therefore, if we had to graph your pizza-tude, I would say it is a combination of many factors that led to your realization of pizza decline; to reiterate:

1) Your taste has improved;

2) The pizza has actually gotten worse; and finally (not outlined above)

3) Chains have pushed many of the smaller independantly owned pizza parlours (who may or may not have been better in the first place) out of the business.

[vic]

What is the name of the pizza shop at 33rd and 3rd? Will they deliver to midtown?

[foodboy]

I don't remember the exact name, but it's something like "Pizza 33". I don't know if they deliver, but I've had several very good slices. If you like a thin, crispy crust, I recommend it. To me, pizza is mostly about the crust.

[TL]

Pizza Booth on Bleecker

[ahr]

My mileage may vary from yours, since I live in a Brooklyn neighborhood with a residual Italian presence, but I have within two blocks’ distance no fewer than three pizza joints each no worse (though no better) than those recalled from my too-distant childhood.  I’ve yet to visit the much-hyped DiFara’s, nor have I tried L&B since high school, though I recall L&B as serving good Sicilian, but Neapolitan topped with what tasted like cheddar cheese.

Despite the brick-oven similarity, my two favorite “destination” parlors, Grimaldi’s and Lombardi’s, differ substantially in style, most especially when they screw up -- the former going limp and soggy, the latter leathery and burnt.  I’m also not sure that I understand Lombardi’s clam pizza; based on a single sample, it’s an enormous pile of rubbery minced clams, which may be fresh but could just as well be canned, and not at all like Pepe’s somewhat Spartan benchmark.  Grimaldi’s also serves pretty good cannoli.

As of a year ago, two decent places in the Wall Street area were Frankie and Johnnie’s (which closed, but has since reopened a few blocks away from its original Pearl Street location) and Cucina Bene on Exchange Place.  (Cucina Bene anecdote:  One of those double-decker tour buses was stuck in traffic on Exchange Place, and the tour guide, apparently having run out of genuine landmarks to describe, shouted “and on your left is the world-famous Cucina Bene Restaurant.”  What could the out-of-towners thus possibly have concluded about New York dining?)

[SilkCity]

All nyc pizza-lovers:  take a trip (NJ Transit via train!)

to "Vic's" in Bradley Beach, NJ; you may discard your return-trip ticket!!

It's that good

[ahr]

I tried Di Fara's yesterday for the first time, having plain slices both Neapolitan and Sicilian.  Crust, sauce, cheese, oil, herbs -- the place deserves all its accolades.  Nothing in my neighborhood, now or when I was growing up, even comes close.  A new favorite.

Two minor complaints:  The round lost style points for tip droop.  Intentional undercooking in anticipation of slice reheating doesn't seem a fit explanation, as this was the lunch peak, and each pie was sold instantly, fresh from the oven.  More disconcerting were the shady cultist types lurking in corners, displaying secret hand signs and cards, perhaps preparing to mate.

[Fat Guy]

Dude, what's happening to your diet? Do we need to get all the members together for an intervention?

[ahr]

Dude, what's happening to your diet? Do we need to get all the members together for an intervention?

Now firmly back on the wagon, I describe my Diet Annihilation 2 1/2 Days in disgusting detail in another thread.

Thanks for caring.

[Fat Guy]

Glad to hear it. I'm dieting vicariously through you, so it was a rough couple of days there. Give us an update on the Atkins cheesecake thread when you get the opportunity.

[ahr]

Glad to hear it. I'm dieting vicariously through you, so it was a rough couple of days there.

I’m glad to be able to return a favor.  Your writing has provided the vicarious gluttony needed to help keep me on the straight and narrow.

[Julliana]

I agree - and since a decent old fashioned slice has become so hard to find - I seem to crave it more and more.

I love a good crispy thin crust pizza but since its almost impossible to find with any consistent quality in Manhattan, I would gladly settle for a great " "old time" piece of pizza. You know the one - where the cheese doesn't slide off the crust revealing the watery sauce underneath, and the crust may not be crisp but its not some soft rubbery mass of bread that gives any type of bread a bad name.  I dont know when it happened, but I find it almost impossible to get a piece of pizza where the cheese and sauce become fused to the crust. It can be a bit oily, it doesnt have to have fresh mozzarella - just a decent slice of pizza.

I tried a slice at that place at 33rd and 3rd - It was okay but not great.  I was there when it first opened and they might not have worked out the kinks yet.  I try to find a good pizzeria in whatever neighborhood I frequent for any reason on a regular basis. My doctors are at NYU and there's a decent place on 3rd Ave between 34th and 35th. Nothing exceptional - just a decent old fashioned consistent slice, where everything fuses together and nothing slip slides off the plate.

I would also travel in Manhattan for a good slice - thats how much I crave it - so any suggestions are welcome!

Julliana

[Mao]

"You know the one - where the cheese doesn't slide off the crust revealing the watery sauce underneath...I find it almost impossible to get a piece of pizza where the cheese and sauce become fused to the crust."

Wait, isn't that the way pizza is supposed to taste, so that you end up eating the majority of pizza with fork and knife.  Its kind of like when you eat a taco at Taco Bell.  Everything is suppose to fall out of the shell.  Come one, get with it. Pizza is really a pseudonym for hot salad.

[ChefGrrl]

I went to college in New Haven, and every time I go back, for any reason, I have to get pizza.  Not even Pepe's or Sally's Pizza.  Just regular old New Haven pizza, at Naples, or Bar.

So NYC is kind of a wasteland.  The best I've found (and they deliver to my place!) is Arturo's.  It's not New Haven pizza, and they do this weird thing where the sauce is on top of the cheese, but it tastes pretty good, has a thin crust and good sauce.  People kept telling me to try John's on Bleecker -- Yuck! What are they trying to pass off as tomato sauce?

  I heard rumors of a good new place in the East Village -- will have to try.

[tommy]

one of my favorite slices in NYC is at La Bellezza, a non-descript place with no tables on 49th btwn 3rd and lex.  

crispy crust.  not too thick.  not too thin.  it's really quite good.  i think they have another location in the 30's on the east side.  Click here for their website, which may or may not be very exciting (i haven't seen it)

[giannone]

Fat Guy,

I sent you the email below prior to realizing you had a message board associated with your site.  I have included the email below so others can read it as well.

I have been reading your reviews for a number of years now and have have tried and come to love some of your recommendations.  In particular, I headed up to Briarcliff Manor and checked out the steak at The Flame.  Although I was rushed because I arrived so late, I did enjoy the steak and the after dinner grappa (gratus).  More importantly, I have been going to Christos Hasapos-Taverna quite often with various friends and loved ones and have never gone wrong.  I visited there a few weeks ago sandwiched in between visits to Peter Luger and those visits didn't pale the flavor and tenderness of Christo's porterhouse.  And if I knew how to properly cook a steak I would go there with a cooler to stock up on the incredibly reasonably priced dry-aged porterhouse.  How can you go wrong at $11.99 a pound.  Peter Luger sells them for $133 plus $29.95 overnight shipping (only option in the drop down box) for two 38 oz steaks.

Now that I have gotten your attention, I have to ask you to lay off the vino before you go out on your pizza parlor visits.  I have been going to most, if not all of the coal oven pizzerias in the tri-state area for the past few years.  One thing that I have noticed is that they have been, contrary to your opinion, pretty consistent.  Although I agree whole-heartedly with you about the inferior quality of the East Side Totonnos,  I continue to frequent the Coney Island original and have never been disappointed.  I don't get it.  Perhaps Joel and Cookie go out of their way to make your visit unpleasant.  You certainly wouldn't be the first or last to experience that kind of treatment.  The other place that has remained top-notch is Grimaldi's.  The pies are always delicious to me.  And if you haven't had the please to experience the wonderful Irish hospitality of Sean and Bernadette at the Hoboken branch (perhaps you didn't mention it because it's in Jersey), you should get youf "Fat" behind out there in a hurry.  Just as good and consistent.  Although the cheese isn't quite the same as Totonno's or Grimaldi's, I have also regularly enjoyed the pies at Lombardi's.  I also visit Patsy's occasionally on my way to Yankee games and although their pies are very good, they certainly don't belong on the top of the list.  Especially if you don't get the fresh mozzarella.  Now the topper was the detour I took with my family to New Haven strictly on your recommendation on my way back from Boston, to visit Sally's.  Although the pizza was better than most, no way was it as good as my Holy Trinity (Totonno's, Grimaldi's Brooklyn and Hoboken).  And it certainly wasn't worth the two hour wait that we endured before we finally got to get served at 10 PM (Granted, It was a Saturday night.).  BTW, if you are ever up in Boston, and would like to sample the best fried calamari on the planet (I haved had it in Sicily, The Isle of Capri and Genoa), try the Daily Catch on Hanover and Prince.  It is an amazing little (and I do mean little) Sicilian Seafood restaurant.  I can't vouch for their other two locations though.

Now back to pizza.  Although your updated pizza reviews really rubbed me the wrong way, my faith in your opinion was greatly restored when I read your review on the Sicilian slices at L&B.  I've been going there for thirty years (I think). Truly a great Sicilian slice in a class by itself.  And the rainbow spumoni ices are a unique treasure as well.

Regards,

Paul Giannone, Warren, NJ (By way of The Borough of Churches)

[giannone]

BTW, you can get an excellent white clam pizza in the Chambersburg section of Trenton at a place called Delorenzo's Tomato Pie's on HAMILTON ST.  I prefer it to the one on Hudson St.  Same family but not the same business or recipes.

[Fat Guy]

Paul, who told you about my pizza-and-drinking problem? I've been trying to keep that a secret!

There is internal consistent logic to your opinions, and I mean that as a compliment. You know what you like, and you know what you don't like, and I think your pizzeria recommendations follow those preferences. I think I just happen to disagree with you fundamentally about what makes pizza good. I think the original East Harlem Patsy's stands head and shoulders abouve the other NYC thin crust joints and I think the pizza there is better if you get it without the fresh mozzarella. Likewise, as you know, I think Sally's is a lot better than Patsy's, and therefore better by a longshot than anything in New York. I doubt either one of us is being biased by inconsistency. I've been to all these places enough to be comfortable with my conclusions, and it sounds as though the same is true of you for the most part.

There's not much more I can say without wholesale repetition of what I've written already on fat-guy.com. I'd like to get to the bottom of our fundamental disagreement, but I'd have to hear more from you about why you like some pizzerias better than others. For example, what were the defects you think you detected in the Sally's pie you had? What causes you to rate Grimaldi's ahead of Patsy's? The one thing I can definitely get from your conclusions is that you like fresh mozzarella on pizza. That's a starting-point for a disagreement: I thing low-moisture mozzarella is often better in this particular application.

Taking it one day at a time . . .

[thereuare]

Just want to reference this old thread re: PIZZA in NJ.

PIZZA in NJ

[giannone]

Fat Guy,

"...but I'd have to hear more from you about why you like some pizzerias better than others."

There is a special quality of the crust at Totonnos that I find unique and rustic.  When you examine the bottom of a slice there is sort of an uneven, slightly charred, slightly powdery "landscape".  Although it is not the thinnest crust, it's texture acts very favorably on my palette.  The only way to describe it is to compare it to the bottom of a bialy, which the outter crust in general reminds me of.  Being of Italian and Jewish heritage, perhaps that is why I am partial to it.  When I go to Totonnos I usually eat a whole pie, but I only eat two thirds of each slice, bringing home the crusts and a bit of the slices that have sauce and cheese. I stick them in the toaster oven in the morning to have for breakfast.  Joel has suggested breaking the crust into smaller pieces and frying it up with eggs, but I have yet to try that.  As I had indicated and you have acknowledged, I do strongly prefer fresh mozzarella, which I find especially tasty at Grimaldi's as well as Totonnos.  As with L&B, Totonno also sprinkles on a small amount of grated cheese of some kind that contrasts well with the sweetness of the sauce.  I have spoken with Joel about the freshness and high quality of the tomatoes that he grinds each day and I think that his attention in that area has added to the quality of the pie.  Although the crust at Grimaldi's is not quite as "rustic", I enjoy the pies there almost as much as Totonno's because they have a very fresh taste.  I especially enjoy the considerable amount of fresh basil used by Sean in Hoboken.

"...what were the defects you think you detected in the Sally's pie you had?"

I did enjoy the uneven presentation, but the cheese wasn't to my liking.  Again a fundemental difference in preference.  And although it has nothing to do with the quality of the pie, the wait was quite intolerable.  When I have to wait two hours beyond being hungry, when I finally sit down I am full of stress from the lack of food that no meal can easily tame.

"What causes you to rate Grimaldi's ahead of Patsy's?"

Freshness of the cheese and sauce.  Although I request the fresh mozzarella at Patsy's, it does not seem to be as fresh as either Totonno's or Grimaldis.  In addition the sauce seems a little "pastie".  The sauce in my Holy Trinity appears to simply be ground San Marzano tomatoes.  That again could be a matter of taste, but I much prefer the "Al Naturale" approach.

BTW, I always order my pies with no topping.