Yogurt-making @ home

[alithea]

Why is Europe's yogurt so much more creamier and less tart?

In Germany I remember being able to buy plain plain yogurt, which was very similar to plain supermarket yogurt here, and something called plain jogurt "cremig gerührt", which means it was mechanically stirred for a long time for a creamy texture. This latter type had a creaminess you'd associate with a brand like Yoplait, and a vastly different texture, but it was still just plain yogurt. Could that be the difference?

[Jensen]

Well, my experiment with using frozen starter was not an unqualified success.

As I wrote earlier, the bit I'd frozen seemed to have separated upon thawing. I spooned off most of the whey and used it anyway. At first, I thought it wasn't going to work at all but then it did get going. I took it out of the incubator after 6 hours or so. It had produced a lot of whey and the protein clumps were "bigger" than usual, leaving the yogurt a little grainy.

I thought I'd drain some of the whey off to make it a better consistency so left it in my "yogurt cheesemaker" overnight. Now, whenever I've used this before, the end result has never been too thick. I've always attributed this to the fact that the curd isn't weighted in any way.

Imagine my surprise when I checked the strained yogurt and found something with the consistency of stiff ricotta or even queso fresco (fresca? I never learned Spanish...)! It's great as a cheese product but not so great as a yogurt product.

I guess I'll stick with using the store-bought starter yogurts (I've been using Brown Cow and it works great).

And along the yogurt/cheese line of thought ... does anyone know if Minigo is available in the US? I've never seen it here but maybe there's some other name for it or a similar product made by someone other than Yoplait?

[balmagowry]

I guess I'll stick with using the store-bought starter yogurts (I've been using Brown Cow and it works great).

How odd - I wonder what happened. Maybe it would have been better to keep the whey and mix it in with the rest?

Well, my latest batch got delayed until today because, among other things (duh!) when I last posted about this I managed to forget that it was holiday (duh!) and by the time I went out to get ingredients everything was closed (duh!). Went today to get Brown Cow, and behold they didn't have any plain in stock. Grrr. Bought some Erivan instead, remembering that several people swear by it as a starter. Also located non-instant dry milk and decided I didn't feel like spending that much money on it given that I'm perfectly happy with the texture of the yogurt I've been turning out (except at the bottom of the container, but that's a different story...).

So anyway, I whupped up a batch using 1/2 gal whole milk and the Erivan, and... 5 hours later it's still liquid. Feh. Does it take longer with acidophilus-only? Maybe it's with acidophilus-only (Erivan's claim to fame - makes quite a tart yogurt) that you have to be careful about whisking too much for fear of killing the cultures?

Well, we shall see. If it doesn't do something interesting pretty soon I shall - well, I'll leave it overnight just for the hell of it, but I have a feeling that tomorrow's gonna be back-to-Dannon day.

Shall try a batch with Brown Cow as soon as my local place gets some more in. Do you use the cream top (yum) and all? Or eat that part (yum) and use the rest?

Oh, that reminds me. When I was at the health food store I also noticed a box of the dried kind of yogurt culture (good to know I can get it), and studied it, out of curiosity. Instructions on the package for making yogurt, etc., and then it said, for Creme Bulgare do the same thing but with heavy cream. How ignorant am I that I had never heard of such a thing before? How incredibly good does that sound? Did I buy a pint of cream to experiment with? You bet I did! But am waiting until I have some viable yogurt going again before I start to mess with that.

EDIT to add: Never mind... it is setting, after all. I had poured some off in a small container, and that isn't setting, but the big ones are almost done. Go figure.

Edited April 14, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[fifi]

Note to all from your friendly SSB... Whisking vigorously will not kill the bugs. They are really tough hombres. Whisking will divide them up and cause them to reproduce more efficiently. If you are using a "wet" starter like yogurt, the bugs clump together all snuggled up in polysaccharides and whisking vigorously "sets them free". When analysing things for bugs and hoping to get a more accurate count, standard procedure is actually to run in a blender for several minutes. Doesn't hurt them. Quit worrying about whisking.

edit: Forgot to add... All we have ever used for the powdered milk was plain old Carnation Instant.

[balmagowry]

Oh me of little faith. Best damn yogurt I've ever had. Smooth, creamy, rich.

Problem: can't stop eating it.

Problem: have to fight off the cat during every bowl.

Actually, it's surprisingly mild, considering the great tartness of the starter. Next time I may let it set a bit longer. But oh dear oh dear, how yummy it is.

Note to all from your friendly SSB... Whisking vigorously will not kill the bugs. They are really tough hombres. Whisking will divide them up and cause them to reproduce more efficiently. If you are using a "wet" starter like yogurt, the bugs clump together all snuggled up in polysaccharides and whisking vigorously "sets them free". When analysing things for bugs and hoping to get a more accurate count, standard procedure is actually to run in a blender for several minutes. Doesn't hurt them. Quit worrying about whisking.

Thank you! At last a voice of reason and knowledge on this subject. Thank you, quit I will. But I wonder where that idea comes from and why so many people seem to believe it. What you say makes a lot more sense.

edit: Forgot to add... All we have ever used for the powdered milk was plain old Carnation Instant.

OK, instant it is, if I ever try it - bought some last week, so may as well. There again, though, I wonder why all the recipes say it has to be non-.

A puzzling world, it is.

[tallulah]

i also use my oven's pilot light for yogurt making. I make it 2-3 times a week. the best tip i have is just when the milk has boiled up, sprinkle about 3/4 ts (per quart of milk) of powdered agar-agar on top of the milk. make sure you beat/mix it in very well. the agar-agar makes a firm, if slightly viscous, yogurt...very much like a commercial product. experiement to see how much to use. i buy it in a little envelop (1.29) at asian grocery stores. coops have it, but it's outrageously expensive.

you can also simmer the milk until it losses much of it's water or add powered milk. last week it was warm in minesota so i tried putting my yogurt in my car and let the sun do the work...beautiful.

you can add a good cocoa power and confectionary sugar to yogurt to make a lovely puddding. i also like adding grapenuts, chopped peanuts, raisons and maple syrup. good luck. and don't forget to always save 2-3 tablespoons for your next batch.

[Jensen]

So anyway, I whupped up a batch using 1/2 gal whole milk and the Erivan, and... 5 hours later it's still liquid. Feh. Does it take longer with acidophilus-only? Maybe it's with acidophilus-only

I thought I read somewhere that, in order to be labelled as "yogurt", the product had to have L. Bulgaris and S. whatever-is in it and that L. acidophilus was an "added bonus".

Shall try a batch with Brown Cow as soon as my local place gets some more in. Do you use the cream top (yum) and all? Or eat that part (yum) and use the rest?

Oh, that reminds me. When I was at the health food store I also noticed a box of the dried kind of yogurt culture (good to know I can get it), and studied it, out of curiosity. Instructions on the package for making yogurt, etc., and then it said, for Creme Bulgare do the same thing but with heavy cream. How ignorant am I that I had never heard of such a thing before? How incredibly good does that sound? Did I buy a pint of cream to experiment with? You bet I did! But am waiting until I have some viable yogurt going again before I start to mess with that.

I do use the cream top with the Brown Cow and guess what I've got on the go right now, this very minute, as I type?????

A batch of yogurt made with half-and-half!!! We'll have to see how that works out!

[balmagowry]

So anyway, I whupped up a batch using 1/2 gal whole milk and the Erivan, and... 5 hours later it's still liquid. Feh. Does it take longer with acidophilus-only? Maybe it's with acidophilus-only

I thought I read somewhere that, in order to be labelled as "yogurt", the product had to have L. Bulgaris and S. whatever-is in it and that L. acidophilus was an "added bonus".

You know, I thought that too - and I'm sure it's true... yet all I can tell you is what I read on the Erivan label. It certainly is labeled "Yogurt" - actually it is labeled "Acidophilus Yogurt," which may legit because it specifies. And it certainly also says that its ingredients are "unhomogenized whole milk, active acidophilus culture." And that's ALL. Anyway, it made an absolutely delicious, delicate yogurt - so good that I gave up mixing things into it because I didn't like to have anything interfering with the taste. And yes, I did use some of the cream top....

I also tried it on a half-pint of CREAM (Mmmmm...), and what it produced was a deliciously soured cream, slightly thickened (hmmmm, maybe this is what O'Brian really meant wehen he described "balmagowry"?????), but not as thick as I presumed creme bulgare should be.

So I am continuing to experiment. I bought a package of the freeze-dried culture, and will use it today to make a small (1 quart) batch of whole-milk yogurt, to see how it compares for flavor and texture. I will also try a small batch of cream, on the assumption that that will at least give me a standard for texture.

Then I also want to try Brown Cow. And at some point I do want to experiment with adding dried millk, again at least for comparison's sake, now that fifi has reassured me as to using the instant kind. I wonder how much of it to use - spose it's been indicated up-thread, and I know I've seen suggestions on the web.

I am also toying with the idea of making a quart with soy milk, for a vegan friend (trust that the freeze-dried culture won't violate any of her tenets).

BTW, this absolutely transcendent yogurt using Erivan as the starter was made with the usual homogenized supermarket milk. Part of the point of the exercise, after all, is to save money. OTOH, I can barely begin to imagine how yummy it could be with raw milk. Kind of afraid to try, though, for fear of becoming addicted.

Who knew that yogurt-making could get so exciting?

[Jensen]

I've just taken my half-and-half batch out of the incubator after 3.75 hours. It's thickened to just the consistency I like (thinner than American yogurt) and it was just starting to show some whey production. It's not terribly tangy and the higher fat content has made it somewhat sweet.

I don't usually mix anything in with my yogurt because I've been eating it on top of fresh fruit. With my batch that I ended up straining, I added garlic and thyme. I reckoned it was quite a bit like quark (which is why I bought the yogurt maker in the first place!). I've been eating it on bagels and toast and crackers and I think I'll finish it off tonight as part of a stuffed pasta filling.

I'm very interested in how your freeze-dried starter works out.

Who knew that yogurt-making could get so exciting?

Yeah...who'da thunk it?

[Jay Francis]

Here in Texas, well to be blunt

1. It is hot most of the year.

2. Just about everyone has an automobile.

We have a spare auto that is always parked in our driveway, used for emergencies or on the week-end because she now has a company car. So, we keep it in case we have car problems and need an emergency car.

With the windows closed, the temperature inside of this car gets up to around 110 F to 115 F.

I discovered that I could slice and lay out ripe tomatoes on a stainless steel drying rack on the dashboard of the car, and, voila, have sun dried tomatoes in a day or so, without having them exposed to the air (flies, etc.). So, I have become famous among my friends for cooking in my car.

After the success of the tomatoes, I also started making yogurt in the car, to great success also. My procedure for yogurt is to bring my milk, typically a quart of milk plus two tablespoons of dried milk powder to 180 F in a non stick pot. Then I allow it to cool to 105 F. I spoon off a cup and stir in 1 heaping tablespoon of Dannon's store bought yogurt. Then, return the cup of liquid to the pot, but don't agitate it too much, I just swirl it in, and let the bacillus spread out. The yogurt sits in my car at 100F to 110F for the day. And is ready when I come home at night.

[balmagowry]

I'm very interested in how your freeze-dried starter works out.

Should know in a couple of hours, and I'll post when it comes out. Won't taste it till morning, of course. But you can be sure I'll be posting then too (as when am I not? OMG I'm over 700 posts - for a relative newbie this is almost embarrassing). Your 1/2-1/2 sounds great - I can hardly wait to try another creme bulgare. BTW re adding stuff - yes, I quite often do that too with the strained stuff. But with that last batch, the Erivan-started one, I swear I couldn't stand to adulterate it even with a little fresh fruit, that's how good it was. Part of me almost hates to be continuing to experiment (and you notice I'm doing so in smaller batches) because I just want more of that taste and that texture. But I also feel smug because I can make more whenever I... uh-oh - don't want to jinx it.

[Jensen]

Should know in a couple of hours, and I'll post when it comes out. Won't taste it till morning, of course. But you can be sure I'll be posting then too (as when am I not? OMG I'm over 700 posts - for a relative newbie this is almost embarrassing).

Yeah, you're pretty hard core.

Your 1/2-1/2 sounds great - I can hardly wait to try another creme bulgare.

I just tasted my half and half batch. When I put it in the fridge, it was the consistency of European yogurt so ... a fair bit runnier than American style. I've just now tasted it and it has the consistency of mascarpone cheese. Not only does it have the consistency of mascarpone, it has the taste of mascarpone but just a little bit lighter. Which, if you think about it, is a good thing because eating mascarpone by the spoonful can get to be a little rich.

I am in heaven.

[balmagowry]

Should know in a couple of hours, and I'll post when it comes out. Won't taste it till morning, of course. But you can be sure I'll be posting then too (as when am I not? OMG I'm over 700 posts - for a relative newbie this is almost embarrassing).

Yeah, you're pretty hard core.

Oh gee, that makes me feel much better. Thanks a bunch - you're a big help.

Well, now is when it was supposed to be done (package said 4 to 4-1/2 hours, and it's been 4-1/2). And so far - zip. Zilch. Nada. As liquid as ever, and not soured at all yet, or barely. Of course, I always think those 4-hour estimates have got to be nonsense, and so it has generally proved. So what possessed me to start this batch so late in the evening, I don't know. Shall have to check it at 3 or 4 AM. Oy. Know what? I actually might not post at that point. Then again... I might. Hard core is right, I guess.

Your 1/2-1/2 sounds great - I can hardly wait to try another creme bulgare.

I just tasted my half and half batch. When I put it in the fridge, it was the consistency of European yogurt so ... a fair bit runnier than American style. I've just now tasted it and it has the consistency of mascarpone cheese. Not only does it have the consistency of mascarpone, it has the taste of mascarpone but just a little bit lighter. Which, if you think about it, is a good thing because eating mascarpone by the spoonful can get to be a little rich.

I am in heaven.

And I am drooling. Give you joy of it (the creamy stuff, I mean, not the drooling). I'm starting to think that the creme bulgare, if I ever get it right, will be an awful lot like unrelieved mascarpone. And as someone who occasionally succumbs to the temptation of slurping heavy cream - straight - by the spoonful, I'm afraid I could down one hell of a lot of mascarpone before finding it cloying. But it's all in a good cause, I figure, so I'm prepared to make that sacrifice.

Noble, huh.

[balmagowry]

Always darkest before dawn. An hour later, it's nicely set. I shoved it into the fridge and will now shovel myself into the sack. Tomorrow is another day... only it's already today. Damn. Good night.

[balmagowry]

New batch: excellent. Delicious. Smooth, creamy. Eating it plain. It passes the cat test, too. I think another hour's incubation wouldn't have hurt it - the flavor is quite mild. But very yogurty. If I hadn't been spoiled by the extraordinary flavor of the Erivan-based batch, I'd be tempted to say this is the best yet. But...

That reminds me of something I've been wondering about: how does the flavor of the starter translate to that of the finished yogurt? With the freeze-dried stuff it's a moot point, of course. But with the others I've used, there's a notable difference between the flavor of the starter and the flavor of the yogurt. In each case, I'm happy to say, in favor of the latter. Even the Erivan, cream-top and all, was extremely sour and had kind of a thin sharp taste - whereas the yogurt I made with it tasted rich and mellow and full. And how many times have I said delicate? Never mind. Same thing with the Dannon starter, though the contrast was less dramatic. Now I'm dying to try Brown Cow.

Ultimately, though, I will of course be starting one batch from a bit of the previous one (I'm sure not going to keep using the freeze-dried stuff - just not cost-effective), which sets me wondering: will the flavor be consistent from batch to batch? or will it go through some comparable mutation?

Sheesh, if it continues in the same pattern I've noted thus far, it won't take long to reach yogurt nirvana - the ultimate diet food in that it has passed from this plane altogether by the time you eat it.

Edited April 20, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[Jensen]

I used my yogurt quark in stuffed pasta tonight and, I'm happy to report, that it cooks just beautifully!

I think the end product depends more on the milk (or half and half or cream) used, rather than the starter. That's just my unfounded opinion on the matter...

[ellencho]

So two days ago I received my Salton Yogurt maker in the mail. I cleaned the crap out of it, and made my own yogurt using FAGE's Total Yogurt as my starter.

I remembered reading that adding powdered milk results in a thicker yogurt, so I added 2/3 c to 1 qt of homogenized organic whole milk. Heated the milk to 205 degrees and let it cool to 110 before adding my yogurt starter.

I allowed the whole thing to brew for 5 hours and in the Salton and then I put it in the fridge immediately. I tasted it a couple hours later and was pretty disappointed. Maybe it was beacuse it hadn't completely cooled to fridge temp, but the texture was very airy and fluffy, but not as thick as FAGE. The taste was a lot milder than FAGE as well.

Can anyone give me any tips for making a more Greek-style consistency yogurt?

TIA

[babyluck]

I used my yogurt quark in stuffed pasta tonight and, I'm happy to report, that it cooks just beautifully!

I think the end product depends more on the milk (or half and half or cream) used, rather than the starter. That's just my unfounded opinion on the matter...

must have quark... now...

I'm so relieved someone mentioned it because I was beginning to think it was a product of mass hallucination. That would have been very sad for me as I have been fantasizing about quark for at least a week now, and it is bad enough to have passionate daydreams about a German dairy product let alone an imaginary one.

I had it every day while staying with a family in Bremen. Silly Futurama-esque ads for mysterious quark derivatives were plastered around town and at train stations. People would line up for frozen quark novelties on North Sea beaches while trying to remain standing in the wind and wrapping enormous scarves around their faces against the bitter cold. Everyone was quarking crazy, even me!

Then I come back home and go through withdrawal. Why does no one here know it exists? Why do I never see it in any of my beloved German delis? Why does it have such a ridiculous name? Why, oh why, is it so delicious mixed with a drizzle of honey?

Finally, a few clues begin to emerge. Mr. Babyluck reveals that he is aware of the existence of quark, and now you, not to mention google and those Vermont Cheese folks, unless you have all gone mad as well... or you are part of the global quark conspiracy.

I have decided that I will get to the bottom of the mystery by following the directions on this website. I don't know if I can trust them but it is my only hope.

[Jensen]

Oh, I've used that very same recipe. It's not really much different in the end than yogurt quark though. I may have mentioned this already but quark is the reason why I bought my yogurt maker in the first place. I also bought a "yogurt cheese maker".

There is a dairy at my local farmer's market that has quark but I found it the same week that my yogurt maker arrived. Also, they only ever had sweetened lemon quark and I only ever want plain or herbed quark. I did notice that this past weekend they had plain quark but then I had a bunch in my fridge, didn't I?

I'd bought some at home (Canada) before moving here but I've never seen it in the stores here. Oh wait, the local German deli does have it but, again, only sweetened and fruit flavoured...no plain and no herbed.

Yes, quark == good stuff.

[Jensen]

Can anyone give me any tips for making a more Greek-style consistency yogurt?

I've never had, nor have I seen, Greek-style yogurt. What is its consistency?

[Marmish]

Can anyone give me any tips for making a more Greek-style consistency yogurt?

I've never had, nor have I seen, Greek-style yogurt. What is its consistency?

Greek style is very thick - similar to sour cream in texture and density- and pretty tangy. It is what I prefer, and usually make. Generally, it is strained. I make a gallon at a time. Once it has drained, it is reduced by about 1/3 to 1/2 I would estimate. I follow the directions given to me by my Greek friend's mother. If you have a Trader Joe's, they import Total yogurt from Greece. I have also heard that there is a Krinos brand, but I have not found it. I haven't looked very hard either since I figured out how to make my own. It's good to know that there are people as obsessed with yogurt making as I am. I have been following all your experiments and as soon as all my boxes are unpacked from moving, I'll start up again. As it is, I can't find anything!

[balmagowry]

Found the Grail at last - Brown Cow Plain finally arrived at Sherry's! (They've been great about trying to order it, but apparently there was some kind of stock problem at the mfr end or so they said....) Bought two, one to eat and one to use as starter. Oh man, that is some very fine stuff. How different trom the Erivan.

Surprised to note that it contains pectin(!!) - who'd'a' think it? That being what offended me about Stonyfield, I'm inclined to feel a touch of dudgeon about it here too. But then there's that taste - hard to hold much of anything against it. Well, I will make a batch with it tomorrow. Went back and checked earlier post from Jensen re using the cream top. Was sorry to see that the answer was yes. I bet it isn't necessary. I'd certainly far rather just eat it!

Ever inconsistent...I remembered that I have a good deal of Pomona's Pectin lying around from my mother's jam-making. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: maybe I'll try using a little in a batch. Don't know why though, as I really prefer the European consistency. Curiosity I guess.

Last Erivan batch was very good but not as transcendently marvelous as the previous - a bit of a crapshoot, I guess. Still have to get me to Trader Joe's and check out Total, of course. But meanwhile I'm psyched for tomorrow's experiment. And I am determined NOT to come bleating to this thread every half hour with "Waaah, Jensen, it won't set!" OTOH, if you happen to be passing through the neighborhood and can remind me about how long you usually incubate this particular combination, I'd be beholden.

Oh! New theory about the grainy/cheesy bits at bottom - a good one this time I think. Remember I thought it might be skin from the top of the milk and you shot that down because yours didn't have any skin? Well - what about skin from the bottom of the milk? That is, not actually skin, as such - but the stuff that forms on the inside of the pan, especially when you bring it to the boil too quickly. This would also explain why my first two batches didn't have any of the stuff: I did my whisking in a separate bowl. The whisk action, of course, is enough to dislodge some of those bits from the bottom of the pot - those then settle back to the bottom of the yogurt as it sets. I'd bet anything this is right. (And yes, I do rinse out the pot with cold water befor putting the milk in it. Old wives' tale, I think - never seems to make a bit of difference.)

[Marmish]

Since you mentioned Total, I thought I'd mention that last time I was at Trader Joe's they only had 2% in the smaller container. I usually by the full fat. I thought the 2% was a bit chalky in comparison, although I don't remember it being like that before.

I found Krinos at my new local ethnic - which here means mostly Italian and Polish - grocery. It is excellent. Very thick and creamy, with a good sour tang to it. I was very happy to find it as the last batch I tried to make never set. I used some of the 2% Total as a starter. The small container of plain Dannon is impossible to find here. It may have been too warm when I added it, but I didn't think so at the time. (used a thermometer).

[balmagowry]

Oh! New theory about the grainy/cheesy bits at bottom - a good one this time I think. Remember I thought it might be skin from the top of the milk and you shot that down because yours didn't have any skin? Well - what about skin from the bottom of the milk? That is, not actually skin, as such - but the stuff that forms on the inside of the pan, especially when you bring it to the boil too quickly. This would also explain why my first two batches didn't have any of the stuff: I did my whisking in a separate bowl. The whisk action, of course, is enough to dislodge some of those bits from the bottom of the pot - those then settle back to the bottom of the yogurt as it sets. I'd bet anything this is right. (And yes, I do rinse out the pot with cold water befor putting the milk in it. Old wives' tale, I think - never seems to make a bit of difference.)

Yes! Proof!

:maniacal cackle:

I was right! Just served out the penultimate bowlful from the last batch, and in the process saw bottom of container, and damned if there wasn't a little scrap of brownish curd - exactly the brown you get when the milk has scorched just a tiny bit at the bottom of the pot.

Good. Now I know what I must do.

[ellencho]

HI all, I made a second attempt at replicating Total's Greek yogurt. I used 3 3/4 cups of whole milk, 1/4 cup of heavy cream, 3/4 c of powdered milk and accidentally let it boil (no biggie, didn't hurt the final product).

Then I cooled it down to 110 degrees, added a big scoop of starter yogurt (1/4c) and let it sit in my salton for 24 hours. Since I overboiled the milk there were some brown burnt milk particles floating around the mixture.

When I finally tried it I was pretty impressed. It's tart like Total, not as creamy, but the thickness is pretty close, and it has a tinge of sweetness to it that is not unpleasant. The little burnt brown milk particles aren't a big deal because they sank to the bottom of the container and aren't mixed in with the rest of the yogurt.