The dangers of the high horse

[Busboy]

[

I suggest that, if someone insults your pozole, you smack down their steak tartar. If someone disses your boiled greens, dismiss their hand-harvested organic petit pois with a sneer and the back of your hand.  And if they try to foist sweetbreads on you, tell them that if God had meant sweetbreads to be eaten, he would have put them in scrapple where they belong (or give them to me, I love the little guys). 

What the heck -- it's only dinner.

Why? I happen to like both the tartar and the pozole, petit pois and greens.

I'm able to say "no thanks" politely to the glandular matter so no need to belittle their choice.

I'm not big on conflict, personally. According to the dessert poll, I'm a custard and not much ruffles my feathers. Or something like that. Why expend all that energy on angst? I could be having dessert instead

I'm a flan, too. Go figure.

If you're not angst-ridden, no need to tussle. Just that some people do seem to be a little angst-ridden...as though food discussions bring out self-esteem problems. I was playing off your observation that you got "the slight impression from some posters that if you prefered pozole to steak tartar then you were just not *quite* worthy," and suggesting that people who detect that should battle back -- and enjoy it.

Not that every thread need to turn into an argument. What's for dessert?

[nessa]

I'm not sure actually what is for dessert. Its my birthday and I hope to be taken to this charming little lebanese place. If so, they have this custard thing in phyllo called shaibet that is really quite nice. Custard. That figures, eh? If I knew of a place that served spectacular desserts, I'd probably just have two desserts and a cappy.

[beans]

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I hope no one said this verbatim.

[continuing]

I consider that to be insulting. And I have learned that pretty much, no matter how you feel on any subject, someone somewhere agrees with you. So if I feel put off by this, I know there are others who would feel the same. Others that may not be as willing to step up and say so. That is the reason I brought it up. I like this place. I like the people here. I've picked up a few things that I have used, and other stuff I plan to use one day. I simply wanted to point this out so all of us who read and post here do not lose sight of the common goal.

We all act like adults around here (most of the time, at least). I've seen very little "nanny-nanny boo-boo" stuff. But when it is dressed as a sneer or a dismissive wave of the hand, I feel, personally, that there is an intrinsic acceptance of it. If you point someone out for not enjoying or being able to obtain an expensive ingredient, it is similar to telling them that, "You should stick to the graham crackers and Chef Boy Ar Dee and leave the discussion to the adults," or your opinion no longer matters. You are no longer a person of consequence. I will fight that tooth and nail.

I know I'm relatively new around here, and I don't have a lot of weight to throw around, but I will never intentionally dismiss anyone's feelings regarding food. It's basic. We need it like water and shelter. We cannot live without it. And I refuse to make someone feel bad about the food they choose or have to eat.

I wholly agree with Kim. Perhaps personalising this too much can really drive you wild. Those that are posting about high end dining/ingredients deserve as much respect as the guy/gal that prefers the Semi Homemade route of product choices. Complaining about food snobbery is the pot calling the kettle black -- each side is judging the other, if there even are sides.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, especially so with food and beverage choices. So why feel bad about it? Why should I care about other people's preferences and/or choices on an electronic medium? So what I enjoy my Gimlets with vodka? Do I care that MatthewB seizes each time I mention it?

I feel no guilt....

[Kim WB]

So what I enjoy my Gimlets with vodka? Do I care that MatthewB seizes each time I mention it?

I feel no guilt....

Whoa..this absolutely changes everthing! YOU are a plebian! A Philistine! Not worthy to lick my Manolos! Vodka Gimlets, indeed! ( I hope I don't need to add the smileys, but you never know, so.... )

[beans]

[Bux]

That is one of the things that keeps this site interesting. Regional and international differences are one of the things that makes Culinaria interesting to me. I would hate to see everything homogeneous throughout the country and the world whether it be foies gras or grilled cheese. It doesn't have to be expensive, it just has to be good

.... By thw, Roux, I think that it is pretty cool that you can get pig's feet so easily.

We all get to form and keep our own standards. I do not believe all things edible are of equal value or interest, but I do believe the standards are subjective to a large degree. Those or us who love foie gras may agree on a standard of when it's properly cooked, but we may still disgree on how it should be garnished. Those who don't love foie gras are entitled to their opinion and those who haven't tasted foie gras are entitled not to have tasted it and to decide for themselves if they care to seek it out or not.

I don't know anyone who shares my exact tastes, but I tend to search out those whose tastes overlap mine. I find people who eat pig's feet generally more intersting than those who won't. I've always assumed that was one of the reasons people call me a food snob. I've also assumed those who come to this site have a love for food and it's been my observation that most people with a passion for anything, are usually quite opinionated, so I expect to find strong opinions here. They don't offend me and I hope my opinions don't offend others. I would be offened by a request to keep my opinions to myself.

If you point someone out for not enjoying or being able to obtain an expensive ingredient, it is similar to telling them that, "You should stick to the graham crackers and Chef Boy Ar Dee and leave the discussion to the adults," or your opinion no longer matters. You are no longer a person of consequence. I will fight that tooth and nail.

I know I'm relatively new around here, and I don't have a lot of weight to throw around, but I will never intentionally dismiss anyone's feelings regarding food. It's basic. We need it like water and shelter. We cannot live without it. And I refuse to make someone feel bad about the food they choose or have to eat.

I'm not sure I follow the exact nature of your complaint. Let's say someone has never had foie gras (or pigs' knuckles--either one might work in my example). Do you think that person's voice or opinion on the subject is going to be as relevant as someone who had great familiarity with the ingredient? I like offal meat and I would include foie gras in that classification. I've dined with, and enjoyed the company of several members who won't go near tripe or kidneys. I'll dine with them again and consider myself lucky to have their company, but it won't stop me from exclaiming in public that I don't understand why people don't like tripe, or liver and that, I assume will not make those who don't like it feel bad about themselves.

That we don't all share the same tastes should be no surprise. I just hope I'm correct in assuming that no one here is calling for anyone else to keep their opinions to themselves if there's a chance those who don't share them will feel deprived or offended.

[jhlurie]

Okay, I'm going to take a typical group of people and analyze what I know of their beliefs about food. Let's call them... Site Managers. These folks are my friends and colleagues, so I think its more valid to pick on them than random users.

Jason Perlow is a guy who founded an international website about food. He grew up fairly wealthy, and ate well (if conservatively in some ways) as a kid. Then he went to college, where he was often observed eating bagel dogs out of a vending machine. To this day, he has the capability to be a total food snob... about what kind of "Combos" pretzels are the best. In other words... not what you'd expect.

Steven Shaw used to be a lawyer (well technically he still is). He made some dough as a lawyer but was bored out of his skull. He ate in expensive Manhattan restaurants, but as most lawyers do he also often ate complete and total crap at his desk. At some point he decided to capitalize on being a bit... overweight and started calling himself "Fat Guy". The rest is history. Nevertheless, I have been to Cosco with him.

Dean McCord ("Varmint") is whatever is the exact opposite of a food snob. He's a champion of the hearty, the down-home, although he's far from ignorant when it comes to the "fancy stuff" as well.

I myself come from a solid middle class mid-state New York upbringing, where French's mustard, "stir-fry", and Pot Roast with egg noodles were the norm. My father bought exactly one kind of pasta sauce--Ragu. We grew our own vegetables, and to be honest, the first time I had cheese produced outside of the United States was when I was 15. And it was only Brie.

I could continue with the rest of the staff, but it really wouldn't be necessary. I'm using some of the Site Management staff because a.) they will only hurt me in private and b.) we are kind of a microcosm of all of eGullet. Anyone and everyone can be (or at least SEEM) snobbish on occasion, but then again sometimes its just a blanket judgement about a few people or a few instances being tossed onto a larger group.

Now to the "real world". I've been frustrated by the idiot in the gourmet market who assumes he knows more than me. I've been in line with the lady who looked askance at my huge 2 lb. bag of Lays Potato chips sitting next to a lump of expensive cheese. I've had maitre' d's look at me like I was some alien life form. I've mispronounced more food names in my life than I've pronounced correctly. It happens. I'm over it.

[phaelon56]

Big Daddy. I tried to buy the junked out Pontiac wagon that used to sit out back a couple of times. He was a nice guy, but didn't exactly expound on the secrets of his fabulous ribs. 

His family members up here were a bit surprised when I mentioned that Dreamland was featured on a "BBQ Road Trip" segment on NPR and that he'd been interviewed for national radio broadcast. He was always known in the family as "the one with the BBQ place" - not thought of as successful.

It's okay - I still like the ribs I mkae in my own smoker better than any I've had elsewhere.

Add me to the list of folks who don't like tripe, tendon and the like. I ordered the "beef stew" version of Pho once at my local Viet restaurant and was truly disgusted, not realizing in advance what the contents would really be. I do like sweetbreads however.... I suppose there never is any accounting for taste.

[bilrus]

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I hope no one said this verbatim.

[continuing]

There was some of that attitude in the Semi-Homemade thread or the Rick Bayless thread.

In most instances I think that if someone sees a trend in food that they think is flat-out wrong (as was happening in that thread), they should be encouraged to say so.

[fifi]

Well... All I have to say is that in Texas we have snobbier snobs than any place on the planet. They are called BBQ brisket freaks. So there.

[FistFullaRoux]

That we don't all share the same tastes should be no surprise. I just hope I'm correct in assuming that no one here is calling for anyone else to keep their opinions to themselves if there's a chance those who don't share them will feel deprived or offended.

Not quite what I meant. It's attitude more than opinion. Don't dismiss a poster's opinion, just because they have different ones than yours. It has happened. To me. On this site. And I don't want to point out specifics because I do respect that person, and they may not have realized that they did it.

My opinion is as valid as yours and anyone else's. I really don't think that anyone had done anything intentionally. These boards are as well maintained as I have ever seen. We are all fairly focused on the subjects at hand, and though we may stray off topic slightly, that's no big deal. It adds to the atmosphere.

I like to think we are all friends, or at least friendly toward each other. I think I'm just trying to get everyone to look at their posts one more time before they post them, if just to make sure you are saying what you are actually thinking.

[beans]

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I hope no one said this verbatim.

[continuing]

There was some of that attitude in the Semi-Homemade thread or the Rick Bayless thread.

In most instances I think that if someone sees a trend in food that they think is flat-out wrong (as was happening in that thread), they should be encouraged to say so.

I've been fumbling with this post and have written it a couple times now, so be forewarned and salt as needed.

In the case of Semi Homemade -- I can understand. That same warfare is happening at FN fanatic forum, too, but mostly in hopes the execs are seeing it and understanding the general public distain for that show.

If anyone is feeling some cognitive dissonance for their food/cooking/eating choices, there are a myriad of underlying reasons. Why blame others or complain about "food snobbery" for posting their opinion?

Do I care if others sneer at my standards of caught in the wild, fresh salmon and never farm raised? Does that make me a food snob? If so -- big whippy skippy!

I find it wholly a myopic point of view to expect others to be like me and enjoy eating x, y or z, or be upset when that is not happening. I thank gawd that there are those not at all like me posting interesting and diverse ideas, opinions and thoughts about food and drink.

No opinion is any less valid.

[Marlene]

? Do I care that MatthewB seizes each time I mention it?

And MatthewB has a complete fit when I call my vodka martini a martini And yet I persist.

In the two years I've been involved with this site, it's evolved a great deal. I remember when I began here, feeling excluded, and I posted about it. It seemed like an exclusive club at the time. So I can hear and understand fist when he says it's happened to him - perhaps without meaning to.

I will never be a gourmande. I hate foi gras and fish. I'm happier with a good piece of beef myself. Yes, I eat out a lot. The nature of our businesses ensure that we do. And I am fortunate to be able to afford to and to afford good materials. That sure doesn't make me any better than anyone else, because I remember a time when I lived out of my car! However, I've got a son who lives on Kraft dinner, Lunchables, and grilled cheese sandwiches with processed cheese slices. My guy is a meat and potatoes kind of guy. He won't eat what he calls "ginchy" food. You'll never find him at Trotters for example.

I love to cook. And I learned so much here, and made many cyber friends as well. So Fist, I hope and believe that the "slurs" you may have received in the past have been from a very select few - forgive them, for they know not what they do

[docsconz]

I like to think we are all friends, or at least friendly toward each other. I think I'm just trying to get everyone to look at their posts one more time before they post them, if just to make sure you are saying what you are actually thinking.

Good advice.

[reesek]

ok - i'm still relatively new, and i feel odd about spouting - do i earn credibility at a month? two?

i think the point should just be - what tastes good (to you) and why? whether it's food you eat out, food you cook or the way you shop - i don't think anyone should be made to feel unsophisticated if they do things differently.

differences are often celebrated on this board, but i think offending or not is all in the approach. someone said something here (sorry i forget who) that resonated with me about reverse-snobbery and anyone making claims was kind of acting like the pot calling the kettle black.

i think snobbery is snobbery. whether you're anti-tang, or anti-foie gras - for whatever reason - so what? am i more or less respectable if i don't like it, can't afford it, can't find it or disagree with the way it's cultivated?

egullet is soo much better than the other boards i read - partly because it's completely open to all things food - from restaurants to cooking to planning...i think this post is super - at the very least, i think we'll all be a little more inclined to celebrate the contributions everyone offers rather than pick at the differences.

[Bux]

In general, all of our opinions are equal. When it comes to specifics, we all have individual strengths. We all have greater familiarity and knoweldge with certain foods and certain restaurants. We all need to contribute what we know. Some members have wider experiences and it may give them a certain kind of advantage at times, but I don't think anyone's opinion should be dismissed although in fact, most opinions are no more than opinions and not all that meaningful by themsleves. What is meaningful and interesting are the reasons for having an opinion.

Still, if I am enamored of haute cuisine, those who love "meat and potatoes" are going to dismiss my opinions on restaurants. In fact, if they come to NY and are neither interested in haute cuisine nor inqusitive about how others eat, they'd do well to avoid the places I think are most distinctive. At the same time, I think one of eGullet's great strengths is the ability it affords all of us to learn about food that is outside of our past experience. I am surprised that many members don't share my curiosity about new foods. I don't dismiss these members, but I suppose I find the outlook boring.

[Marlene]

Like any good team, we all bring something different to the table. That's how we learn and grow. Just because I won't get my meat and potatoes guy to the haute cusine restaurant, doesn't mean I don't want to hear about it and learn from it. That way, if I get a chance to experience it (likely sans hubby ), I'll be more prepared than I would have been if I hadn't learned about here.

[ExtraMSG]

There are two types of food snobs: a) ones that base their snobbery on experience and a search what tastes good, and b) ones that base their snobbery on what's trendy or cool.

The first one I can respect. The first one I can discuss and debate and challenge and be challenged by. The second is just worthless to me.

I think you can put environmental food snobs into each of these categories, too. There are vegetarians and vegans I respect. They've looked into the face of an animal and seen its suffering, identified with it, and said they will not be a part of its death. Okay. I can respect people who believe that meat is unhealthy, that non-organic food is unhealthy, and so on. I may try to show them they're wrong, but I can respect them.

You don't have to agree, or even conclude that someone else's opinion is valid, to respect their opinion. But I think if you want your opinion respected, you have to be willing to defend it and show that you're not just mindlessly following a trend or what's politically correct or what the other rich people do or what your parents did, and so on. I also think this includes not being offended when people challenge your opinion and not expecting people to just take statements of opinion like: "French food is the best food" as good enough.

The only food snobs I really can't stand are those that won't give something different a try.

[bilrus]

I also think this includes not being offended when people challenge your opinion and not expecting people to just take statements of opinion like: "French food is the best food" as good enough.

That brings back memories of the earlier, less accepting eGullet days.

[bilrus]

I think you can put environmental food snobs into each of these categories, too. There are vegetarians and vegans I respect. They've looked into the face of an animal and seen its suffering, identified with it, and said they will not be a part of its death. Okay. I can respect people who believe that meat is unhealthy, that non-organic food is unhealthy, and so on. I may try to show them they're wrong, but I can respect them.

I respect people making their own choices about food, but I don't want them to disrepect my choices. If you want to try to convert me to being a Vegan (or convince a Vegan to eat meat) don't tell me why eating meat is bad. Tell me why not eating meat is good.

(does that make any sense?)

[badthings]

I don't think anyone's opinion should be dismissed although in fact, most opinions are no more than opinions and not all that meaningful by themsleves. What is meaningful and interesting are the reasons for having an opinion.

Yeah.

I mean, why do you care if I like foie gras or not? Or glands, or okra or whatever? You don't, or you shouldn't, unless I have something interesting to say about it (as you may have discovered, I usually don't).

On the other hand, it is perfectly legitimate to say, "well, I like shitty BK food." No one should be dismissed for that. But if you want to argue that it's somehow objectively not shitty food, you better have a better reason than the fact that you like it.

This is a good site because more of you have better reasons for your opinions than elsewhere. Even the New Yorkers.

[beans]

I respect people making their own choices about food, but I don't want them to disrepect my choices. If you want to try to convert me to being a Vegan (or convince a Vegan to eat meat) don't tell me why eating meat is bad. Tell me why not eating meat is good.

(does that make any sense?)

Yes!

A positive spin does wonders!

[ExtraMSG]

I think you can put environmental food snobs into each of these categories, too.  There are vegetarians and vegans I respect.  They've looked into the face of an animal and seen its suffering, identified with it, and said they will not be a part of its death.  Okay.  I can respect people who believe that meat is unhealthy, that non-organic food is unhealthy, and so on.  I may try to show them they're wrong, but I can respect them.

I respect people making their own choices about food, but I don't want them to disrepect my choices. If you want to try to convert me to being a Vegan (or convince a Vegan to eat meat) don't tell me why eating meat is bad. Tell me why not eating meat is good.

(does that make any sense?)

I don't know. Sometimes the negative argument is all you can give. eg, say that:

Smoking increases your risk of cancer 50 times.

Is there a way to put a positive spin on not-smoking? Isn't it really about the smoking being bad for you, even if you enjoy it. I think the same can be said for arguments about food stuffs. Sometimes there are positive arguments to be made, but often the best arguments are based on negative factors.

As long as names aren't being called and people not being flamed -- as long as real arguments are being made and evidence shown -- I think people should be willing to accept challenges. Members shouldn't expect to be made fun of, but they also shouldn't expect to have to walk on eggshells for those that don't like to be challenged.

[slkinsey]

As long as names aren't being called and people not being flamed -- as long as real arguments are being made and evidence shown -- I think people should be willing to accept challenges. Members shouldn't expect to be made fun of, but they also shouldn't expect to have to walk on eggshells for those that don't like to be challenged.

This is a very salient point you make here. One does not have to agree with another person to respect that person. I would even go so far as to suggest that one does not have to respect another person's opinion to respect that person.

You and I, for example, have taken opposing positions and gone around the tree on a number of subjects. And yet, at the end of the day, it was all a good time. I think we came away from it appreciating our counterpart's position a little better, appreciating our counterpart a little better and liking each other a little more. I certainly know that, based on our debates, I tend to check out your posts to see if something interesting is going on.

That is only good, in my opinion.

[Pan]

I think that the members who feel alienated might also be personalizing things a bit. Saying " That pasta dish is not going to be near as good if you use Prego and cardboard boxed parmesan," does NOT mean " IF you use Prego and boxed Parmesan, you are a terrible person who can't cook, knows nothing about food and should not be posting here!" The truth is, the dish will be better with different ingredients. If you like xyz restaurant, and someone suggest abc restaurant because they add truffle oil and caviar to the dish..it's not diminishing your preference, but rather keeping the topic alive and interesting with relevant contributions.

I agree completely.

And I would readily say that overboiled, mushy pasta with Prego and Kraft grated "parmesan" cheese (mostly rind) with preservatives to prevent caking sucks. To me - and I daresay, to most people on a site devoted to discussing food, which therefore is skewed toward people who are on some level gastronomes and connoiseurs - it does suck. That doesn't mean that people who eat this combination and like it are fools or morally depraved. It does mean that I don't share their taste in pasta. Now, it's possible that someone who likes pasta that way is a highly intelligent, decent person who's a distinguished nuclear physicist. It's even possible that this person is an expert baker of pies and cakes, or mixes a mean martini, for example. But to me, his/her taste in pasta sucks. Does that make me a snob? Honestly, I don't think so. It means that I'm a person of somewhat discriminating taste. I don't like all music, either. I think a lot of music sucks. But there are loads of musicians I respect greatly and love to perform with who like a lot of music that I think sucks. So while I have to regard their recommendations in music to check out with a grain of salt, my respect for their musicianship is undiminished. The world is complex and almost every individual living thing is unique. That makes life interesting, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Just don't serve me mushy pasta with Prego sauce and Kraft grated "parmesan" cheese in a jar.