Babies/Children in Restaurants (merged topic)

[woodburner]

Good point. I wonder what "policies" some of these places have.

Is there any policy?

I'm willing to make an assumption there is nothing in place for fear that they will look like monsters, in some circles.

woodburner

[tommy]

I'm willing to make an assumption there is nothing in place for fear that they will look like monsters, in some circles.

then again, the fine dining public probably wouldn't run in those circles to begin with.

[foodie52]

Oh good lord.....

If you can afford a high end restaurant, you can afford a baby-sitter for the night. And if you have to take your kids everywhere you go, then you have a problem...

Give me a break.

[Mayhaw Man]

I'd be interested in seeing whether there are similar experiences to Mark's at places like FL, CT, JG and ADNY -- over the course of a year.

Maybe a blog is in order.

Soba

They happen everyday. And while I disagree (generally) with the posters who claim that people are doing this out of some kind of innate evilness, I will say that I wish they would stop doing it and find someplace more suitable.

Most of the posters here seem to be of the opinion that a young person (I am talking 8 or 10 y.o. here, but I am certain that all of you have exceptional children and could have and wanted to dine fine earlier in life ) who is able to sit still and be interested is often a welcome addition to a meal and that a young person who cannot sit still or enjoy a meal is NOT a welcome addition to a dining experience. I'll go further than that-I do not want to sit next to anyone who is going to annoy those around him, regardless of age. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Boorish businessmen, annoying lunch ladies talking back and forth about their latest jewelry acquisitions and upcoming trips to Bali, guys on cell phones talking 3 comma deals. All of these are JUST AS ANNOYING as little kids.

The difference between these groups is this-The adults have chosen, of their own accord, to dine in a nice place where certain rules and standards are in place (maybe not written in detail on the back of the menu, but generally understood) and the children are just along for the ride because Mommy and Daddy either wanted a good meal and only had one shot at the reservation or because they are just plain thoughtless. Neither of these things are good excuses. Until a child (or anyone else for that matter) is old enough to understand decent decorum in a fine dining establishment they should not be there. There are exceptions to this, but there aren't many and the excuses that do exist (no choice, one time shot, etc.) aren't up to snuff in my book. THere is always somewhere else to go that everyone concerned (children, adults, fellow diners) would be happier with. After all, no small child, regardless of age, wants to be told to sit still 100 times during a 2 1/2 hour dinner service and no parent wants to say it 100 times (and parents who don't bother shouldn't be in there either if they are so clueless as to not try to correct the behavior of their offspring).

It is all about the way children are brought up and how they behave in public. It is my experience when I see children generally acting terrible in public that their parents do not spend anytime correcting their behavior either because they don't know any better or because the are so wrapped up with themselves that they don't even notice their little hellions throwing bread crumbs and butter pats.

Take em when they express an interest and when YOU think that they are ready. Make a big damn deal out of it. Make sure that they know that it is a big deal. Tell em how much it costs ("Sweetheart, this meal is really important and you should know that. You should also know that this is going to cost more than a playstation and 3 new games. Please behave like a good little girl and we will do it again soon. If you misbehave you will have to grow up and get a job before you see the inside of this place again" ) and that it is a very special deal to you and you are thrilled to have them along. Make the child feel like a grown up. I had great luck doing something similar (I have to admit that my little lecture was a bit more threatening. Something along the lines of "If you wanna go to Military School here is your big chance, bubba. Screw this up and you will be marching around in circles before you know it" ) and now have both of the boys suitably broken in. They know how to eat, know which fork to use, and know not to make bad noises when they see a waiter at Galitoires trundling out the esargot service for a nearby diner (it's a long story, but they REALLY HATE that stuff). We don't do it all the time, because they would rather go to Joe's Dreyfuss than Emeril's, but I know if I need to I can depend on them to behave.

But I would never have done this before many dining experiences in places where it didn't matter, frankly, if they spent the whole night running around. THey got used to sitting and they got interested in food as something more than just something to fill up on. Please keep the kids at home until everybody is ready to act decently and not bother everybody else. We will all be glad you did.

[tommy]

Oh good lord.....

If you can afford a high end restaurant, you can afford a baby-sitter for the night.

what if it's a business dinner?

what if your babysitter canceled at the last minute?

what if it's a gift certificate?

what else should one be able to afford if they can afford a high-end restaurant? seems to me that if you're spending a lot on a dinner, maybe you don't have a lot left over. well, it doesn't actually seem that way to me, but clearly that can be the case. and for many people, it is.

[hjshorter]

Oh good lord.....

If you can afford a high end restaurant, you can afford a baby-sitter for the night.

what if it's a business dinner?

what if your babysitter canceled at the last minute?

If it's a business dinner you're probably less likely to make a deal if your toddler is along.

And the babysitter cancelling...this happens to us all the time. Either one of goes and one stays home with the kids, or we cancel the reservation. We would spend the entire meal worrying that one of the kids would start misbehaving.

There are people who feel they need to take their kids with them everywhere they go, and those people need to get a clue that it's much better for everyone when kids aren't put into situations that they are not mature enough to handle.

[foodie52]

If it's a business dinner, why are the kids coming?

If it's a gift certificate, then it must be a really special thing :it would seem to me that you'd want to be able to enjoy it, no hassles, no kids, no kidding.

If your baby-sitter cancels ( as mine certainly did on occasion....) then postpone the outing! You want to really enjoy the occasion, don't you?

Take the kids to cafes....to cafeterias....to places where you can whisk them away at the drop of a hat . Socialize them in kid-friendly places and especially at the family dinner table.

[Bux]

I have neither much sympathy nor respect for those who can tell in advance that their meal will be ruined by a neighbor because of that person's age, sex or ethnicity. For the most part, babies, toddlers and young children don't belong in AD/NY, Charlie Trotter's or the French Laundry, but I'm unsympathetic to blanket rules. I didn't take my own daughter to this sort of restaurant until she was at least 11 or so as best I can recall. The reason had little to do with her behavior and a lot to do with the our finances. I remember traveling with her at eleven and she was not only well behaved, but an astute critic of what she ate. Her grandparents however, spent many an evening with her in what I consider moderate NYC French restaurants. From the age of four on, she could occupy herself with a single artichoke while they ate two courses. Crayons and a coloring book were brought and my mother would make trips to the restroom between courses to help with the attention span limits. So far as I'd heard, they were welcome return diners in the restaurants they frequented. I happen to enjoy kids and enjoy seeing them wherever I am. One of the things that pleases me in a restaurant is seeing three generations sitting at a table enjoying a good meal together. It's rare in a Daniel or Jean Georges environment, but I love it when I see it.

I've already said that most babies, toddlers and young kids don't belong in that environment, but most adults probably wouldn't be happy there either. I know. I have many friends who feel that way. Fortunately they make their own decisions and kids don't usually have that luxury. Nevertheless, I've had more meals disrupted by misbehaving adults than children. The responsibility of the restaurant, which cannot always predetermine which diners are going to be disruptive, is to deal with the disruptive ones when they are disruptive and to do so in a fair manner without making a bad situation worse.

Toys on the floor in an urban restaurant is usually a taboo. Few such restaurants can afford the floor space. The real problem is not in the rules or lack of rules, but in our society and those who live selfish lives without consideration of others, be they irresponsible parents or just single boorish drunks in restaurants. One of the things a restaurant might do, is discourage the return of the parents Mark had as diners. Dress them down on the way out and let them know how you feel at the risk of losing them forever. Let them come on eGullet and dis your restaurant long enough for responsible members to let them know they were wrong. I've read complaints about restaurant behavior here and seen them countered by fair minded impartial members. That's one service we can provide.

[tommy]

If it's a business dinner, why are the kids coming?

why not? is this always inappropriate?

clearly, taking children to high-end restaurants is the exception, rather than the norm. if it wasn't, i'd see a lot more kids at Jean-Georges. i don't. so, i'm pointing out possible exceptions. regardless of retorts, they are valid, and just 4 that came to mind in about .5 seconds. this suggests, to me, that there are more. more importantly, i was speaking to your suggestion that if one can "afford" a high-end restaurant, they can afford a baby-sitter (as if finances are the reason people bring children to restaurants), ostensibly nullifying the need to ever bring a child to a high-end restaurant.

i think restauratuers should start an official survey, asking why children are in restaurants. then we could all get together and tell each person why they're wrong.

Edited December 27, 2003 by tommy (log)

[fifi]

From the age of four on, she could occupy herself with a single artichoke while they ate two courses.

You just described my daughter. And we did take her places. My son was another story altogether. Not that he was bad. He just had a different temperament and wasn't able to do this until about age 6 or 7. That is where parental responsibility comes in. Parents are the ones that know what will work. If they don't make that determination correctly (and many don't), the poor restauranteur is screwed. He has to choose as to who to piss off. I favor pissing off the unthinking idiot that takes a child into an environment that they are not ready for.

[WHT]

I think the restaurant has the right to throw out customers who won't or can't control the behavior of their babies, within reasonable limits.

I would agree with that! Any disruptive element should be removed. Childeren under 6 don't belong at such a place.

[tommy]

I think the restaurant has the right to throw out customers who won't or can't control the behavior of their babies, within reasonable limits.

I would agree with that! Any disruptive element should be removed. Childeren under 6 don't belong at such a place.

speaking of official policies, i would think that knowing this might happen would be deterent enough for people to leave their kids at home. actually, i wonder if that's why many don't bring their kids to high-end restaurants to being with?

[jat]

Mark, I am bewildered WHY the management does nothing when there is

a crying baby. Does your restaurant do nothing and let the diners suffer?

I think there are many unanimous responses here about restaurant policy

to remove an unruly child. A fine dining establishment should have the

protocol to handle this. Are you really not doing anything at your restaurant?

[fifi]

speaking of official policies, i would think that knowing this might happen would be deterent enough for people to leave their kids at home.

The continuous creation of ever more creative idiots is indeed mind boggling. That is why restaurants need to decide on a policy and stick to it. I still think that establishing "family days" makes some sense so that all can be accommodated. that way, those that want to dine with kids, can. Then they can't really take a bitch about being refused to the press. And, the patrons that don't want to be disrupted by children will know which days to avoid.

[Mayhaw Man]

i wonder if that's why many don't bring their kids to high-end restaurants to being with?

I think that most people don't do it because:

1) Most people are generally respectful of others

2) It is a waste of money (generally speaking)

3) It is not fun or fair for the the children (generally speaking, once again)

4) Nice dining is a big occasion for most people. Correcting a child all night long would sort of take the shine off of the apple. And trust me, having a disagreement involving children is no way to "get lucky"

[woodburner]

I think the restaurant has the right to throw out customers who won't or can't control the behavior of their babies, within reasonable limits.

I would agree with that! Any disruptive element should be removed. Childeren under 6 don't belong at such a place.

speaking of official policies, i would think that knowing this might happen would be deterent enough for people to leave their kids at home. actually, i wonder if that's why many don't bring their kids to high-end restaurants to being with?

I think the shark attorney's would have restraunteurs in civil court, by adopting any policy. You can't by law violate the liberties, of complete idiotic morons, especially in public places.

woodburner

[WHT]

what if it's a business dinner?

what if your babysitter canceled at the last minute?

what if it's a gift certificate?

what else should one be able to afford if they can afford a high-end restaurant? seems to me that if you're spending a lot on a dinner, maybe you don't have a lot left over. well, it doesn't actually seem that way to me, but clearly that can be the case. and for many people, it is.

If I found a child at a business dinner I was hosting they would not be doing business with me. That’s totally inappropriate. If the sitter cancels ether get another or call off the evening. As far as the gift certificate thing a straw man argument much like your other two suppositions. Not saying it doesn’t happen but Ford owners are seldom given a Cadillac for a gift. I think the same applies to most situations.

There are places where disruptive or boorish individuals are not welcome and should be asked to leave whatever the age.

As to kids playing in places like that it’s inviting an accident to happen.

[Steve Klc]

Restaurants like Citronelle have dress codes which are enforced. Jackets, ties, no sneakers, no sandals, whatever, are a restaurant's way of defining expectation, defining acceptable behavior. They often have a wine "code" as well called a corkage policy. Why shouldn't we expect baby codes? If a restaurant doesn't develop and enforce a baby code--and also take the time to explain the existence of such a code to everyone making a reservation--as Citronelle does by informing everyone making a reservation of the dress code--then I'd suggest a restaurant, and unfortunately you Mark in this case, is on pretty thin ground complaining about or getting frustrated by activity which is within your power to curtail.

You dictate acceptable attire for your diners, you dictate whether wine can be brought into your restaurant, why isn't the onus also on you to dictate acceptable behavior or impose other conditions as well--like bringing little kids into your restaurant?

Then the marketplace chooses whether your dictates are acceptable or not.

And you're covered as long as your dictates are clearly delineated and consistently enforced.

[greenfield]

This is definitely a very interesting thread. I have some very mixed feelings about children in restaurants. Personally, I don't mind children who stay in their chairs and behave reasonably well. For what it's worth, I definitely go out with friends and their children, but I have not been to any high-end restaurants with them.

One time a friend's child started to get a bit cranky. Since it was the end of the evening, they had a simple solution--time for them to go! It was a very nice solution and the entire evening was pleasant. Had it been the middle of the dinner, they probably would have stepped outside for a few minutes until the child was a bit calmer. (Of course, this can be a bit tricky in the winter in a small restaurant.)

I have another friend who allows her child to roam around the restaurant. She justifies this behavior by saying that if the restaurant wants to stay in business in our neighborhood, they will allow children to scamper about. Not only do I find this a bit annoying, but it can also be quite a bit dangerous. As a result, I try not to go out with this friend.

There has been a lot of discussion on why a child would be brought to a high-end restaurant. As a child, my brother and I were brought to high-end restaurants on two occasions: my grandparents' 70th and 75th anniversaries. The restaurants in question were Tavern on the Green and Windows on the World. In both cases, my grandparents wanted to have a nice meal with great service; they also wanted to spend time with the people who were close to them. I still vaguely remember both restaurants, and I definitely remember my grandparents being very happy that I was there with my younger brother. For what it's worth, I think we were very well behaved. (I can also remember the venison pate with truffles on the menu at Tavern on the Green, and I can also remember that it was my first introduction to a fixed price menu.) I know my grandparents would not have wanted to have an experience at a nice restaurant for these occasions without my brother and myself in attendance.

My brother has some very nice memories of Windows on the World. They gave him his own miniature bottle of soda, they put him next to the window, and they tried to make sure that he was having a good experience. This had a two-fold effect: he remembers nothing but good service at Windows on the World, and he was very pleasant because his needs were met.

Well, here was the specific scenario last night: Couple number 1 arrives with infant, toddler and granny in tow. They are shown to a small semi-private room in the restaurant where the infant immediately starts wailing and the toddler starts unpacking toys on the floor and singing. Couple number 2 arrives, also with infant and toddler and granny. They are shown to an adjacent table. Mother comes flying to the hostess stand where she complains that the other children are making noise. She is then shown to another alcove in the restaurant where her children can now start wailing and singing without being bothered by the other children. At one point in the evening, it seemed the children at both tables were communicating in screams "I've got this part covered, too". The daddy in the main dining room picks up the infant and starts slowly strolling THROUGH THE RESTAURANT, oblivious to the 4 food runners, 6 waiters, 2 sommeliers, and other 80 customers. This is in contrast to the night before when an African diplomat brought his family, including 3 small children. They sat perfectly poised at the table. The maitre d' offered children items to the parents, pasta and such. He was astonished when the littlest boy said in perfect French "I want the lamb. I really like lamb".  It was a rough night.

So what could have been done in this situation? Honestly, I don't work in a restaurant, so take my advice with a grain of salt. And I certainly do not want to try to second-guess the situation. As a customer, I would like the same sort of treatment in any high-end restaurant if I had or did not have children. I would want to have a good meal with unobtrusive and polite service. I guess it can be hard to be diplomatic in this kind of situation. I don't know who said it, but I think this quote is oddly appropriate: "A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to Hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip."

Did you have a well-stated policy? If you require a jacket and a tie, I want to know ahead of time. Similarly, I want to know if children aren't allowed.

If there is a problem with my behavior, I want to know in a polite and inconspicuous way. For example, if I accidentally knock a plate off the table at a nice restaurant, I want the situation taken care of without a big deal. If I have a child who has toys on the floor, I would like to be politely asked that they be moved so that waiters won't trip.

Finally, if I am disturbing other guests, I want to be treated how you would other bad guests. What do you do if a guest is drunk and loud? Can you do the same with a parent who has a screaming child?

A Windows on the World approach may have worked as well. Perhaps children should merely be treated as customers with special needs. Give them extra attention during their experience at the restaurant, and if they don't need the attention, then throttle it back throughout the meal. Maybe a waiter or busboy that was good with children can be assigned to look after tables with children.

On the flip side, the next time these parents attempt to make a reservation or attempt to come into the restaurant, the restaurant might want to think twice before accepting the reservation or offering seats.

As for the other customers, were the ones who were visibly disturbed offered a complimentary dessert or glass of wine even if they didn't complain directly? If I were a pissed off customer, this would definitely go a long way to making me happy.

It sounds like an awful evening for almost everyone concerned. It's really too bad--one of the goals of all people who go out for the evening is to have a good time.

[tommy]

As far as the gift certificate thing a straw man argument much like your other two suppositions.

i don't think so. suggesting that if one can "afford a high end restaurant, you can afford a sitter" might be, however.

fwiw, i've been on several successful casual business meeting/dinners with a child. not an infant, but a child. the point is, of course, that perhaps no one in the group was actually paying for the dinner, therefore the argument above is meaningless. perhaps the rest of the world doesn't share your values.

Edited December 27, 2003 by tommy (log)

[tommy]

i wonder if that's why many don't bring their kids to high-end restaurants to being with?

I think that most people don't do it because:

1) Most people are generally respectful of others

2) It is a waste of money (generally speaking)

3) It is not fun or fair for the the children (generally speaking, once again)

4) Nice dining is a big occasion for most people. Correcting a child all night long would sort of take the shine off of the apple. And trust me, having a disagreement involving children is no way to "get lucky"

or to sum it up nicely, i think: they realize it's generally not appropriate.

[fifi]

greenfield, I haven't come across you before, so welcome to eGullet.

You make a good point about Windows on the World. That restaurant was a tourist destination and quite probably experienced in handling a mixed crowd as to age. This is unlike the other high end dining establishments. But, I am sure that some of the techniques that they used would be instructive. Thank you for sharing the experience.

May Windows on the World and its loyal employees rest in peace.

[Mayhaw Man]

A Windows on the World approach may have worked as well. Perhaps children should merely be treated as customers with special needs. Give them extra attention during their experience at the restaurant, and if they don't need the attention, then throttle it back throughout the meal. Maybe a waiter or busboy that was good with children can be assigned to look after tables with children.

It has been my experience that this is usually exactly what happens if the children are behaving appropriately. Cool drinks, jokes from the waitstaff, maybe a dessert set up for the child-these things come with the territory for a kid who has just eaten a meal with adults and has behaved. It is pretty natural for people to be polite to a precocious, reasonably entertaining, well behaved child. This treatment is onw of the rewards for behaving and it is only good business (aside from some kind of natural tendency to be nice to children) to treat young customers well if they are with their parents. THey will come back and fill our seats again on some other night.

The issue, once again, is whether establishments should have stated rules about the dining ages of their patrons? I tend to lean towards no toddlers or babies, but as someone stated above, there are exceptions to everything.

After the age of 9 or 10, I think that the parent should have a pretty good grip on what the child can do and what the child WOULD LIKE to do. Some children, like some adults, are NOT EVER going to like sitting down to a multi course degustation. Some people would rather go to McApplebacks and count the "flair" on their waitron's suspenders while they are waiting on their pressed meat baby back ribs. More power to them. They can have my seat.

On the other hand, some kids take to fine dining pretty early and I think that after a couple of practice runs at sit down and long service/multi course eating that they should be able to tag along if they are interested and you have a want or a reason to take them. Just be prepared to bail without complaint if it starts to go South.

I like eating with enthusiastic young diners and I am not only talking about the Little Mayhaws. We eat a decent meal or two every couple of months that generally involves a older adolescent or a young teen and I like it when they start asking questions concerning food or service or just about the business of running a high end place.

I think that I have repeated myself enough at this point.

[Bux]

I think the restaurant has the right to throw out customers who won't or can't control the behavior of their babies, within reasonable limits.

I would agree with that! Any disruptive element should be removed. Childeren under 6 don't belong at such a place.

I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're advocating. I would agree that any disruptive element should be removed from a fine restaurant. As for kids under six, I don't see how or why anyone should care if they're not a disruptive element. I've seen five year olds sit quietly in a restaurant and draw no special attention to themselves or their table, except perhaps because others find them remarkable, but if people who appeared remarkable were barred from restaurants, how would escorts earn a living?

I have another friend who allows her child to roam around the restaurant. She justifies this behavior by saying that if the restaurant wants to stay in business in our neighborhood, they will allow children to scamper about. Not only do I find this a bit annoying, but it can also be quite a bit dangerous. As a result, I try not to go out with this friend.

The free market can be a wondrous, or at least mysterious thing. There's much to be said for a neighborhood restaurant allowing children to scamper about, if that's what the neighborhood wants and supports. I suspect Le Bernardin (I'm trying to give equal credit to the star places in my posts) would not stay in business if it allowed children to scamper about. Quite frankly, that's not their trade and I doubt there are enough families with scampering children intent on eating there to keep it in business after their regular trade leaves.

I'd prefer not to see restaurants have to enforce "no children policies" but I understand why they might. I find it a pity that more people aren't responsible for their actions and their children's. As I've said, I enjoy seeing children in restaurants and that includes fine restaurants, but I don't enjoy scampering children in fine restaurants and don't expect either parents or management to allow adults or children to spoil my dining experience. I do find the assumption that a child doesn't belong without any knowledge about the child's history in restaurants to be one of prejudice. In a certain way, when restaurants begin to enforce age regulations to keep children out, it seems to take any responsibility away from the diner and parent. A rule against six year olds, implies that a seven year old is okay even if he misbehaves, while a rule against misbehaving will work for the rude six year old, the rude seven year old and the rude forty year old.

[Mark Sommelier]

Restaurants like Citronelle have dress codes which are enforced.  Jackets, ties, no sneakers, no sandals, whatever, are a restaurant's way of defining expectation, defining acceptable behavior.  They often have a wine "code" as well called a corkage policy. Why shouldn't we expect baby codes?  If a restaurant doesn't develop and enforce a baby code--and also take the time to explain the existence of such a code to everyone making a reservation--as Citronelle does by informing everyone making a reservation of the dress code--then I'd suggest a restaurant, and unfortunately you Mark in this case, is on pretty thin ground complaining about or getting frustrated by activity which is within your power to curtail.

You dictate acceptable attire for your diners, you dictate whether wine can be brought into your restaurant, why isn't the onus also on you to dictate acceptable behavior or impose other conditions as well--like bringing little kids into your restaurant?

Then the marketplace chooses whether your dictates are acceptable or not.

And you're covered as long as your dictates are clearly delineated and consistently enforced.

Dear Steve,

Citronelle doesn't do corkage. When people actually ask before they come if they can bring bottles, they are politely told no. Unfortunately, people don't usually ask if it is appropriate to bring an infant, so we don't get the chance to tell them, no, maybe this isn't the best place to bring an infant. I started the thread to discern if there was a way to tell people discreetly, other than a NO BABIES sign posted at the door . I have enjoyed many of the answers and will use the feedback with our hostess staff. Another thing, Steve. The guy I work for is French. His frame of reference is Paris 3 star restaurants. I was recently in Paris. I ate at some pretty fine restaurants. According to my boss, infants are not brought to fine restaurants in Paris. The best restaurants rarely accept tables larger than 6, also. When I was in Paris I have to admit that I never saw children in restaurants, nor wild tables of 8 conventioneers whoooping it up, either.

Steve, you also said: "Then the marketplace chooses whether your dictates are acceptable or not.

And you're covered as long as your dictates are clearly delineated and consistently enforced."

Steve,

You know that I work in one of the busiest restaurants in town. Apparently, the "dictates" are not much of a problem. Its not that hard to put a coat on and lose the jeans for most people. The wine policy has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't go in to it. I started the baby thread to discover what other people out there thought about it. That's all.