Babies/Children in Restaurants (merged topic)

[Kouign Aman]

Kisses backatcha, dahling. I have to go label forks at Olive Garden so the progeny can practice their table manners. We bring our own fish forks, naturally. Also fish knives, and all those other dahling little victorian sillinesses. Cocoa cups, anyone?

[Busboy]

Excuse me. I must run. My linen tablecloth requires ironing, the silver needs polishing...

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Duh! That's what the kids are for.

[hjshorter]

Excuse me. I must run. My linen tablecloth requires ironing, the silver needs polishing...

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Duh! That's what the kids are for.

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Your kids, maybe. Sending mine out for beer would get me arrested.

I have to agree with Karen. Take the kids out to places that appreciate them as customers (not cater to them, I hope everyone knows the difference) and where they will enjoy themselves. Save the four star restaus for the foodies. I'd rather take our kids out and have them grow up to be educated rather than the kind if person who orders white zinfandel in fine dining restaurants and is afraid of unfamiliar ingredients.

Amen to Maggie for dissing the kid's menus. The options for children just suck. We almost always order a grownup dish and split it for the kids, although they are developing very expensive tastes as a result (Emma recently ordered lobster cocktail as an app). And they now expect that dinner includes 3-4 courses, including cheese. Expensive little boogers. Some places will even divide whatever it is for us.

We make sure the kids don't run around, try for places with a decent amount of ambient noise, and tip very well.

[Carrot Top]

Excuse me. I must run. My linen tablecloth requires ironing, the silver needs polishing...

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Duh! That's what the kids are for.

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Yeah babe. And that's what *you* are there for, to wash the dishes. With a winning smile tossed over your shoulder while doing so.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)

[Varmint]

I say give the kids a break - let them be kids - take them out to eat if you can - try to make it pleasant for all, which means giving consideration to *everyone* at the table including the kids. If extra napkins are needed, let it be that they are eating somewhere where the adult at the next table will not be upset if the server's time is taken by this act of service rather than the act of service of bringing an adult a drink.

They will be grown up soon enough. As far as expense goes, no expense is too large to spend on something that will be a good thing for a child. I just can think of better things to spend both time and money on than this rite of initiation that more and more "foodies" seem to think important as more and more "foodies" become a vital (sic) part of our culture.

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If you're talking about my trip to NY with my children, you're being a bit judgmental and uninformed. I agree wholeheartedly that parents who work like crazy to groom their children into mini-foodies are doing that more for themselves than for the children and are quite annoying. But when I plan on taking my children to Union Square Cafe, where the owner himself has said they want children to come, I view this as a fun experience for the children. I won't force them to eat anything in particular. Hell, they can just order mashed potatoes and dessert for all I care. But I want them to dress up and enjoy themselves for the first time (and remember, my oldest is 13). When it comes to eating at the other places I mentioned, they have one thing in common: they're places that we don't have around here. If this is not fun for the children, then it's a waste of time. If my children start to bother others in the restaurant, then it's a waste of their time as well as the customers around us. But this is not about grooming children to become foodies. It's not about me. It's about the one experience that best defines any society: the meal. Enjoy the traditions of a dim sum brunch. Try a pastrami sandwich or a big fat kosher dill. Why not get a hot dog from Gray's Papaya? Or some pizza from Grimaldi's?

And I'm proud to say that my two oldest kids started cotillion because their friends did it (this cotillion included manners classes), and they both dropped out, saying it was stupid, overly formal, and had nothing to do with "being nice."

[Busboy]

Excuse me. I must run. My linen tablecloth requires ironing, the silver needs polishing...

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Duh! That's what the kids are for.

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Yeah babe. And that's what *you* are there for, to wash the dishes. With a winning smile tossed over your shoulder while doing so.

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A task I have been known to undertake without complaint.

[Carrot Top]

If you're talking about my trip to NY with my children, you're being a bit judgmental and uninformed.  I agree wholeheartedly that parents who work like crazy to groom their children into mini-foodies are doing that more for themselves than for the children and are quite annoying.  But when I plan on taking my children to Union Square Cafe, where the owner himself has said they want children to come, I view this as a fun experience for the children.

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I wasn't talking about your trip, Varmint. It hasn't happened yet, and you said you would tell us about it. If joyous things occur (which I image they may) then that is wonderful.

A personal invitation of that sort from the owner of Union Square Cafe is not the norm for most diners or from most restauranteurs of that caliber. If it were me issuing the invite of that sort (as owner or manager) to a venue of that sort, I'd be damn sure to instruct all the staff involved to be on their best behavior.

(Edited because "caliber" is not spelled "cabiber". A "cabiber" is someone who drinks in cabs.)

Edited March 29, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)

[Carrot Top]

A task I have been known to undertake without complaint.

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Hah. I went back and linked to it too, at the same time you were posting, so there will be double-hits on it now from everyone.

[Varmint]

A personal invitation of that sort from the owner of Union Square Cafe is not the norm for most diners or from most restauranteurs of that caliber.

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No, there wasn't a personal invitation, as I've only met him a couple of times. I just recall reading how he believes in restaurants (and his restaurants in particular) should welcome children.

But if those same children are running around the restaurant and making a ruckus, I don't think he'd welcome them. I wouldn't welcome them anywhere other than a picnic table!

[Carrot Top]

No, there wasn't a personal invitation, as I've only met him a couple of times.  I just recall reading how he believes in restaurants (and his restaurants in particular) should welcome children.

But if those same children are running around the restaurant and making a ruckus, I don't think he'd welcome them.  I wouldn't welcome them anywhere other than a picnic table!

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Then blessed be the situation and may it thrive and bloom, across the land.

P.S. I like picnic tables.

[Carrot Top]

The options for children just suck.

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My theory is to let the kids find this out for themselves with their own common sense, choices, and experiences, not by a parental proscription from me that they can not eat from the children's menu. That way (to my mind) they know it from a true place inside themsleves, rather than because "Mommy said I can't do that." An entirely different feeling, to my mind.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)

[paul o' vendange]

To each their own, and let the swords rise and the trumpets blare.

They will be grown up soon enough. As far as expense goes, no expense is too large to spend on something that will be a good thing for a child. I just can think of better things to spend both time and money on than this rite of initiation that more and more "foodies" seem to think important as more and more "foodies" become a vital (sic) part of our culture.

As usual, eloquently put. Each to their own, indeed.

I guess at the heart of it, for me, anyway, is that I cringe at the whole notion of "foodie." At the risk of coming off like a complete prig, the word reminds me of "shakespeare junkie," and many other like terms. May utterly be my mind that misconstrues it all, but to me the word immediately cleaves self from food; from the experience of it, primordially.

I hope to raise our son with the notion that food is primitive. It is simple. Even haute cuisine, done well, a reminder of nature - much like the most complex of symphonies, merely sublimations of pilgrimage chants, peasant rhythms, whatever. Normal. Not the trappings, but the pure, delirious sensation of it all - if our boy grows up really being blown away by the smell of thyme, lemon, garlic; if we can give to him the same joy we take in all this, I'd be happy he was given something of great worth. It starts young.

[Varmint]

From a Q&A with Danny Meyer in the Washington Post last month:

All right, one more: I come into Eleven Madison Park with a 5-year-old, and I can't control him. What should you do? What should I do? Should I have even brought him?

Absolutely. I think one of the greatest gifts you can give a child is to expose him or her to a good restaurant. I remember meals when I was 7 years old, and nothing would make me happier than to create those kinds of memories for others. In your situation, I'd take him out of the environment until he calms down, and then come back in and try again. The restaurant should see that you're having a tough time and express hospitality by saying, "Tell us what we can do to make this easier for you."

[Carrot Top]

All right, one more: I come into Eleven Madison Park with a 5-year-old, and I can't control him. What should you do? What should I do? Should I have even brought him?

Absolutely. I think one of the greatest gifts you can give a child is to expose him or her to a good restaurant. I remember meals when I was 7 years old, and nothing would make me happier than to create those kinds of memories for others. In your situation, I'd take him out of the environment until he calms down, and then come back in and try again. The restaurant should see that you're having a tough time and express hospitality by saying, "Tell us what we can do to make this easier for you."

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Absolutely wonderful, if put into practice consistently.

Not the norm, in many if not most places.

As mentioned above, it seems certain venues with certain cultural traits might be better at this task than others. Or at least it has appeared to be so to me.

Personally, my kids have never been *out of control*. They have, however, been difficult to settle in happily, as kids can be (or oh . .my kids can be, anyway. ). When this happens, usually nobody notices but me.

I can assure you that as a single parent I more than deeply appreciate every single act of kindness shown towards my children (and therefore myself) in restaurant situations.

Therefore I tend to take the kids to eat where I can be hopeful of finding small bits of kindness - rather than glares of anger from those whose drinks are slowed down because of a child's needs . . .or arrogant smarminess from youthful servers whose manners really show not much better than a cranky child's themselves.

There is often no quarter for the child edging towards heavy discomfort in these situations. There is no quarter for the singular parent who must take charge of it all, and take everyone out if we go, rather than struggle through traipsing back and forth like a small army through the scene.

A simple bit of care shown could alter the situation to a brand new thing - to a good thing. One smile, one act of intelligent care by a server who knows how to talk to children (which after all, is part of the act of hospitality, if children are to be considered humans) can make a difficult moment go drifting right down the stream. And yet how often do I see this?

To quote from J.B. Priestly, who was talking about another thing, but what I'm talking about could well be substituted, in my mind:

We plan, we toil, ,we suffer - in the hope of what? A camel-load of idol's eyes? The title deeds of Radio City? The empire of Asia? A trip to the moon? No, no, no, no. Simply to wake just in time to smell coffee and bacon and eggs. And, again I cry, how rarely it happens! But when it does happen - then what a moment, what a morning, what a delight!

[Carrot Top]

a reminder of nature - much like the most complex of symphonies, merely sublimations of pilgrimage chants, peasant rhythms, whatever.  Normal.  Not the trappings, but the pure, delirious sensation of it all - if our boy grows up really being blown away by the smell of thyme, lemon, garlic; if we can give to him the same joy we take in all this, I'd be happy he was given something of great worth.  It starts young.

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That is beautiful, Paul.

It's the music that must be sought, not the boombox.

[MomOfLittleFoodies]

as long as common sense prevails and parents supervise their kids.

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Exactly! Too few of them do, though.

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Exactly.

Being a parent myself, I tend to notice kids when I'm in a restaurant. It's very hard for me to keep my kids in control when they see other kids goofing off in the restaurant.

Generally the parents that don't supervise their kids in restaurants are the same ones that will sit at the park yakking into a cell phone or with their friends and not pay attention to their spawn, while their kids are throwing sand, running off into the parking lot some other not so safe activity. *sigh* I dislike going up to the school for events these days, because at least 1/3 of the parents don't seem to care what their kids are doing.

We don't do much fine dining with the kids in tow lately... right now my kids are more interested in quantity over quality.

While we're on the kids in restaurant pet peeve thing... folks, don't come into a fast food restaurant for a business meeting and chide me because my kids are talking and playing with their happy meal toys. If you want quiet THAT badly, maybe sitting next to the play area in Burger King isn't the smartest choice.

[hjshorter]

The options for children just suck.

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My theory is to let the kids find this out for themselves with their own common sense, choices, and experiences, not by a parental proscription from me that they can not eat from the children's menu. That way (to my mind) they know it from a true place inside themsleves, rather than because "Mommy said I can't do that." An entirely different feeling, to my mind.

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We eat at a lot of ethnic places where the regular menu is what's available, so it's not an issue very often, but when it is they frequently want something different anyway.

[Simon_S]

You see, the problem here is that a lot of people with kids take the "no kids allowed" thing personally. That's quite understandable, but it misses the point. Some parents know how to deal with their kids, are sensitive to the experience of others, and everyone behaves accordingly. Some (dare I say the majority) are either blissfully unaware or, worse, think the world should revolve around their offspring. Don't dream of stifling little Tarquin by suggesting he shouldn't run screaming around a quiet restaurant tripping up busboys. Shouldn't little Trixibelle be allowed to throw her toys onto other diner's tables? Why should I remove my adorable children if they behave this way? Other people should understand. What's the big deal? Weren't they young once too?

Parents who are sensitive to the needs of others and who bring up their kids accordingly will generally be welcome at nice places. But if you're setting a general rule it's just too much of a risk to take. Plus, I *do* think there are some environments that just aren't suitable for children. Strip clubs, for example. Smokey bars at 1am. Top-level restaurants late in the evening.

Regarding the wedding comment, having just got engaged ourselves, my fiancée and I are adamant there will be no children at our wedding reception. At a recent wedding we attended, a family relative of about 3 or 4 years of age "borrowed" Mommy's lipstick and drew pictures all over my girlfriend's dress. I don't blame the child, but that's not the atmosphere I'm looking for. I don't care who's offended, I'm not risking it.

Edited because "caliber" is not spelled "cabiber".

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Of course, it's not spelled "caliber" either. At least, not where I come from...

Si

[Carrot Top]

Of course, it's not spelled "caliber" either. At least, not where I come from... 

Si

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You spell "behaviour" I spell "behavior" You say potahto, I say potato . . .

[Carrot Top]

While we're on the kids in restaurant pet peeve thing... folks, don't come into a fast food restaurant for a business meeting and chide me because my kids are talking and playing with their happy meal toys. If you want quiet THAT badly, maybe sitting next to the play area in Burger King isn't the smartest choice. 

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Ah, yes indeedy. The movers and shakers of the business world that choose to meet in the booths of Burger King rather than in the corporate dining room. Why they are not meeting in the corporate dining room, I can not imagine.

But they *are* impressive, and I am startled that you would even say a word against them in their choice of sitting next to the little kids area and then asking for quiet.

(I didn't mention it myself for fear they might take out their matching sets of Donald Trump wigs and hoodies, put them on and all point their fingers at me, scowling, "You're FIRED.")

[Busboy]

Some parents know how to deal with their kids, are sensitive to the experience of others, and everyone behaves accordingly. Some (dare I say the majority) are either blissfully unaware or, worse, think the world should revolve around their offspring. Don't dream of stifling little Tarquin by suggesting he shouldn't run screaming around a quiet restaurant tripping up busboys. Shouldn't little Trixibelle be allowed to throw her toys onto other diner's tables? Why should I remove my adorable children if they behave this way? Other people should understand. What's the big deal? Weren't they young once too?

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This is simply wrong, a grossly inflated stereotype. I am myself soemthing of a proto-yuppie -- though not of the excessively affluent variety -- and the vast majority of my friends and acquaintences fall under that demographic as well. I cannot think of a single one with that attitude; if anything it's the reverse, with people hypersensitive about their kids' behavior. I know that there are "not my precious little Madison"-type parents around, but they are a distinct minority.

[cakewalk]

I know that there are "not my precious little Madison"-type parents around, but they are a distinct minority.

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Oh my. I'm sure they are a distinct minority in your personal world (I am not being facetious), but they are certainly not a distinct minority in general. Goodness, I wish it were true what you say!! I see too too many parents making the assumption that everyone must admire their perfect child (or pet, yes, alas) no matter what they might have done (she says as she wipes splashed soup from her eyes.) Now isn't that cute? Admit it.

[Simon_S]

This is simply wrong, a grossly inflated stereotype. 

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If you say so, but...

I know that there are "not my precious little Madison"-type parents around, but they are a distinct minority.

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Not here. And if it's not the "precious little Madison" sort of parenting it's the other extreme -- I don't really care what my kids do as long as they stay out of my sight.

I'm really not joking about this. I experienced both the last time I ate out (on Sunday evening). One table had a *very* loud child of about 11 or 12 complaining bitterly that he had to sit there while his parents drank their coffee, and then nearly having a hissy-fit about some work he had been asked to do at home, for which he considered the offered €10 per hour payment derisory. I wanted to point out to him that the people serving his food were probably earning less. Of course, his complaining worked and the parents offered more money. I stress, this exchange was taking place on the opposite side of the room, but I could hear every word.

Meanwhile, a child of about 6 wandered around the restaurant, unheeded by his parents and playing with a balloon. He nearly tripped our servers as they brought the food, and when it arrived we sat and ate as said balloon knocked off our chairs, shoulders, etc. His parents sat 8'-10' away and ignored all of this.

Where do you live, busboy? I think I should move there!!

Si

[Busboy]

I live in Washington DC, just up the street from the Prez. I never though of us a particularly polite city; I wonder if the prevailing yuppie ethos here, where one's children must be practically perfect (and even though many of my friends are far from stereotypical yuppies, and lived in "interesting" parts of the city long before it was popular to do so, rather than the more monied wards, we all swim in the same pond), means that our crew is a little more strict with the manners than in areas where people don't sit around discussing what private/elite public schools their kids got into. Here, while parents are enthralled with their children and brag on them whenever they're not complaining about them (as everywhere) little Madison is expected to act like a grown-up roughly from birth.

What has happened to the Irish? You guys are getting as bad as we Americans. My father's side of the family is distinctly Irish (County Mayo) and just a couple of generations over here. I'm pretty sure if I or any of my extended family had been whining in the way your restaurant-mates were, our rebuke would have been swift, sure and painful.

[Simon_S]

What has happened to the Irish?  You guys are getting as bad as we Americans.  My father's side of the family is distinctly Irish (County Mayo) and just a couple of generations over here.  I'm pretty sure if I or any of my extended family had been whining in the way your restaurant-mates were, our rebuke would have been swift, sure and painful.

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You're not wrong there, and such behaviour certainly wouldn't have been tolerated by my parents as I was growing up. On the rare occasions I was taken out to dinner I sat like a little mouse because there'd be hell to pay if I stepped out of line.

The problems here most probably relate to our relatively sudden wealth and our correspondingly sudden sense of self-importance (I'm including myself in that stereotype ) It seems that now we have money we think we should be allowed do what we want, and that *definitely* stretches to the kids. As an example, schools here are finding it harder and harder to discipline pupils, and suspension/expulsion is extremely difficult. You know why? On hearing that little Johnny was repeatedly bold at school and is to be disciplined by a suspension, parents no longer get annoyed at little Johnny. Instead, they sue the school.

But I digress...

As bad as Americans? Americans I've met (in Chicago mainly) have in general been some of the politest people I've ever come across, and had a far better sense of what was appropriate and where.

Mayo, eh? That's where my fiancée's parents come from. Lovely part of the world.

Si