The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[therese]

Last summer we (and others) bowed out of a BBQ at a friend's house because of other commitments, and thank goodness we did.  It seems this friend's thrifty ways prevented her from ditching chicken that had clearly gone bad.  Instead, she rinsed it off, grilled it and fed it to her husband - she decided to not eat hers because it "didn't look right" to her.  To make matters worse she told us that part of the problem may have been that it wasn't fully cooked through either! 

Needless to say her husband became violently ill, spent two days in hospital and a full week in recovery, looking and sounding like death itself. 

I have eaten there once since that happened, but as you can imagine, many others find an excuse to bow out because they were troubled by the risk she took then and are concerned that she could be a "repeat offender".

How would you deal with a similar situation?

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Eeeh. And bleah, too.

Well, you could tell her you were going vegan, or had developed some medical condition that prevents you from eating certain sorts of food, or that you just weren't very hungry (which at least wouldn't be a lie---just the idea of eating food from this kitchen is making me sort of queasy).

Or you could just beg off going to her house for social occasions, instead asking her over or out to restaurants. We have friends with cats (no, FoodTutor, it's not you) and dogs and not great housekeeping skills, and because both my husband and I are allergic/asthmatic we are both altogether miserable when we visit. So we don't. We don't specify why, we just can't make it on such and such an occasion. They are good friends and we very much enjoy their company, but being in their house makes us ill.

[touaregsand]

The woman is bizarre. My husband is a chef he would never serve a customer something that he wouldn't eat himself or feed our family. It's incomprehensible to me that she would serve her husband, family and friends something she knows is bad and won't eat herself.

If I saw that I would tell her point blank (while smiling) that she should throw it out or eat it all herself. I'm not a confrontational person generally speaking and I tend to use diplomatic approaches to problem solving. The woman is grossly negligent and her cavalier attitude towards the health of others, well just doesn't inspire me to be anything other than direct.

[racheld]

We went to England and Scotland on one of those all-inclusive bus tours last year. We would go into the hotel dining room at the end of the day and be handed a "short menu" of the two or three entrees/salads/desserts they were offering to tour groups, as opposed to the general menu given to hotel guests and locals there just for dinner.

My Sis and I noticed that the table was always completely set, including soup spoon and salad/appetizer fork, but as soon as we ordered whichever we chose, a server came around and scooped up the remaining unneeded piece of silverware. One night Sis ordered soup, and I, a salad as a first course. Salads came around first, and she picked up her salad fork, took a taste of mine, set the fork down, and they grabbed it up and put it onto a cloth-covered tray they carried to hold the "unused" silverware.

We started watching, and EVERY restaurant we ate in did the same thing. We hoped that they were just taking them away to go into the dishwasher with everything else, but one night, the server dropped a fork and placed it in the hand BENEATH the tray, I suppose to mark it as "dirty."

Thank goodness it was near the end of our tour---we surreptitiously scrubbed our silverware with our napkins under the table every night thereafter. We all know rearranged germs are more sanitary, right?

[jsolomon]

Personally, I was horrified - they're touching the serving spoons right into the plates where the kids have just eaten with their forks, and then basically taking all the germs that each kid might have on his or her plate, plunging them back into the warming tray of food, and then serving them to the next people in line.

I expressed my horror to the adults I was with, and they just shrugged and didn't seem to get it.

Is it me?  Does anybody see my point?  Or am I overly phobic here?

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Of course the adults are going to shrug. They kiss those little germ ridden mouths each morning. Besides, there's basically no significant culture time for the germs so there's not going te be anything of note happening. But, my spurs are always a-janglin' apparently.

[touaregsand]

Some of the fears regarding germs here reminds me of my 6 year and her friends fear of cooties.

So much of this is cultural. Koreans will share a hot pot with family, friends, even strangers. Everyone double, triple dipping their spoons into the same pot. When I went to France I was stunned that strangers would actually let my then baby girl put their fingers into her mouth. Complete strangers would just stand there telling my husband and I that she was beautiful while they placed their fingers in her mouth. Made me crazy then. Doesn't bother me so much anymore. The French also kiss ALOT, they don't seem to worry much about cooties at all.

Also, in Japan don't some restaurants actually serve the same whole fish twice. The first customer eats one side, then it's flipped over for the next customer. Or is this something that someone just made up and told me?

[katbert]

In Philadelphia, food trucks are common on the street and most vendors tend not to have running water. In some trucks, food and money are handled indiscriminately (especially with trucks that do sandwiches where the roll needs to be sliced), while other trucks tend to have less hands on involvement (such as the chinese food or crepe trucks where most ingredients are preprepped and gets scooped into a cooking basket or wok w/ utensils ). I only know of one truck where the primary vendor uses gloves, and he's very careful not to handle money, but gloves are very rare here. I know people who have or think they have gotten sick off food from trucks but the popularity/convenience of food trucks keeps them going.

I get annoyed when people who are sick or recently sick share germs, but that's not a vendor issue.

[therese]

Okay, so here's an example of how difficult it can be to nail down an outbreak:

From: ProMED-mail <promed@promedmail.org>

Source: Ohio State Department of Health [edited]

<http://www.odh.ohio.gov/features/invstg/invstg1.asp>

The Ohio Department of Health (ODH), working along with partners at the

Ottawa County Health Department, the Centers for Disease Control and

Prevention (CDC), the Ohio EPA, Ohio Department of Agriculture, and the

Ohio Department of Natural Resources, issued a preliminary report as to the

cause of a gastrointestinal illness outbreak in summer 2004.

The findings have identified widespread ground water contamination as the

mostly likely source of the illnesses. This came about through exhaustive

study of ill people who fit the case definition; extensive testing of many

water systems on the island; a study of the groundwater or aquifer on the

island; a review of past hydrological studies of the island and the

aquifers; and a case control study comparing sick people with their well

traveling companions.

[The preliminary report identified 1450 cases of gastrointestinal illness

in residents and visitors to South Bass Island from 23 Jul to 12 Sep 2004.

Infections included cases of campylobacteriosis, giardiasis, and norovirus

infection. A case control study found that cases were more likely than

controls to drink tap water on the island (matched odds ratio = 4.3, CI

2.2-9.3, p=0.000005) with a significant dose-response effect to tap water

consumption. Cases were also more likely than controls to have had any

drink on the island that contained ice (matched odds ratio = 7.1, CI

2.2-25.5, p=0.0002). No clear association of illness was found with any

lake or swimming pool exposure. The complete report can be found at above

URL. - Mod.LL]

[TheFoodTutor]

Very good information, therese.

Personally, I had a case of short-lived food poisoning about 15 years ago, and looking back on it now, I don't think I attributed it to the correct item that I'd ingested. I became ill during my meal at a restaurant, and I associated it with the oysters I'd eaten as an appetizer. Now, oysters are risky foods, but not likely to make you sick in less than half an hour unless contaminated with a toxin or possibly a chemical cleanser of some sort. Looking back on it, it's really hard to say, but I did avoid eating oysters for about 6 years because I just really couldn't stomach the thought of them.

As far as the issues with silverware usage, I know about many things that could go wrong, causing someone to get dirty silver: silver placed on the wrong tray, improper amounts of sanitizing chemicals in the dishwasher, silver being polished with a cloth that's not sanitary, etc. But as much as I know that these things can and do happen, I still eat in restaurants and use the silver in my place setting.

I suppose I could bring my own plasticware like Jack Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets," but I don't think it's worth looking like a freak.

[Pan]

The woman is bizarre. My husband is a chef he would never serve a customer something that he wouldn't eat himself or feed our family. It's incomprehensible to me that she would serve her husband, family and friends something she knows is bad and won't eat herself.[...]

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It's more than incomprehensible; it's repugnant. If the couple get divorced at some point in the future, that injurious behavior is likely to be a contributing factor in the mix somewhere.

[coquus]

I think there is alot that I don't know about this topic, beyond the three hours in danger zone mentality, rinse your veggies before you use them, etc. It shocks me sometimes when I find things out. For example, I recently traded in my frequent flier miles for Organic Style, Food&Wine (where I found out about eGullet), and Time. While the latter are good light reading, I find some really interesting stuff in Organic Style. For example they twisted me up and straightened me out on different plastics and their uses in the latest issue. I didn't know 1/2 of what they say in the article, and I'm a chef. In my years in food service I have noticed alot of shocking behavior and, like Tony says, mostly have been of the mind to live with it and love it. The problem I have encountered lately is the love of it, and while it hasn't affected my travel diet, at home I eat out less and less because of this. It's discouraging to me that I haven't encountered very many concerned cooks on my journey. I, for one, would like to change the world, are you with me eGullet? This needs to be done, especially here in America, people are eating out more and more, and a larger and larger amount of our population depends on it's food service professionals to do the right thing. Home cooks too. If you haven't been able to follow me, trust me, I have several topics in mind, it's a large nut and, if given the time and space, together we may crack it.

[coquus]

Just in awe of the lack of response this topic gets. I thought for sure we'd be up and running by now, must be too far down the page for most of the users to notice. Sigh. Does anyone work at a place that composts? I worked at one for a bit, but they are out of business now. This was a pretty big, old, and hippy Ithaca, NY(pop.:50K) and they were one of two restaurants that composted, the other being the famous cooperatively owned vegetarian place. This was two years ago, pretty sad really.

[Lynn Dinwoodie]

I'm with you on this one...I too, am shocked at the lack of food safety and more importantly the integrity ..of course that could be one in the same..of our beloved food industry. I'm also surprised at the lack of discussion on this topic.

I'm sure we have all witnessed examples of unsafe cooking, and/or handling of food..plse share...

I was recently at a very 'trendy' fish and chip place in my fair town and saw one of the chefs blow his nose..not wash his hands and then proceed to touch my chips.Now in fariness..he did wipe his hands on his apron...yes, yes I know..I've probably had worse in my mouth..and yes we need some bacteria or germs..and so on and so on..but really...

And whats with people dealing with money and also touching our food.

And the complete trust we seem to have and lack of questioning about what we pop into our mouths.

I am proud to discuss every aspect of my food and kitchen..I welcome vistitors...how many other places can say the same..thank God for open kitchens..but even then I've seen some unscrupulous behaviors in open kitchens...don't they know they are being watched...and another thing..oh dear..you got me going now..don't touch your nose. And can you say something if you are unhappy..and also..cross-contamination..its everywhere..well not here.thanks for the rant...L

[Pam R]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier - I've been busy!!

Food safety is a huge issue for me. In my city, every food establishment has to have at least one staff member who has gone to a food safety handling course and taken a test. I'm set to take the test in a couple of weeks - though without the course. I have a book I'm studying to refresh myself.

I went to the University to get a bach. in hotel/restaurant management. One of the courses was food safety and sanitation. For 10 weeks and (I think) 3 credits, we learned all we ever wanted to know about food borne illnesses, HAACP, the 'danger' zone, storing foods, cooking foods, etc. I can tell you that at the end of the course non of my classmates would eat in the cafeteria for a long while! Anyhow,at the end of the course we all had to take the Minnesota equiv. of a food handler's test.

We are just moving our business and my mother and I are taking the test (my mother's already done the course but she's up for retesting - I think it's every 5 years). We have to renovate before our kitchen is up and running again - but I intend on having every staff person take the course.

What scares me is that even though every food service place HAS to have somebody who has taken the course, there are many places that I will not eat in - if the eating area and bathrooms (and outside) look like shit - what are the chances that the kitchen is spotless?

Any other cities doing this?

Edited July 10, 2005 by Pam R (log)

[Lynn Dinwoodie]

Yes, we in British Columbia, also must have at least one person in the kitchen with the food safe certificate..and no..we do not have to be retested..which I think is a shame. I believe everyone in a kitchen and a food store should have a food safe certificate...as we have all seen..some people just don't have a clue.

I realize the enormity of everyone having a certificate..especially casual labour and so on...but perhaps a couple of levels of certificates....and perhaps the onus on the owner of the esablishment..a small test along with the interviews might just fit the bill...

I do not keep a Kosher kitchen but I do have many Jewish customers who appreciate my knowledge and concern for their needs...along with others with religious and/or special diets. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into my local grocery store and have seen the deli people use the same tongs for ham slices as well as beef...integrity..common sense..I think not...

[Pam R]

I do not keep a Kosher kitchen but I do have many Jewish customers who appreciate my knowledge and concern for their needs...along with others with religious and/or special diets. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into my local grocery store and have seen the deli people use the same tongs for ham slices as well as beef...integrity..common sense..I think not...

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I think keeping things 'kosher' can help with the safety issue. (We are not certified kosher but follow all of the laws and use only kosher ingredients.) The kashrut laws assist with the concept of cross contamination. Passover helps teach our staff about how clean the kitchen must be. Every year it's a great reminder that the kitchen should always be kept this way. (I'm not saying that all kosher joints are clean... but i know in my case it helps).

I agree that the onus should partially be on the owner - unfortunately, many an owner doesn't care. Training costs money - in the long run I think it would save money (rotation so things don't go bad, getting things cooled, etc.) but for some people that up-front spending is more important. Heaven forbid somebody gets sick... see how much that would cost somebody.

There was a restaurant here that had an issue - several people got sick - some hospitalized. They are lucky and have a very supportive customer base, but it hurt them for a while.

[NulloModo]

Honestly, food safety has never seemed to be a big issue with me. I mean, obviously I'm not going to use the john, then go cook dinner without washing my hands, and I'm not going to eat meat that really smells funny, but I have no problem using the same cutting board to slice raw meat or poultry and then vegetables without washing it, well, as long as they are all going to be cooked anyway, if it were raw veggies for a salad I would rinse it under hot water first. On the same note I eat my beef rare (and don't really care if I know where it came from), my pork medium or less, and if my chicken is a little underdone, hey, it is just juicier. Yes, I have given myself food poisoning once, from undercooked italian sausage, and I am generally more careful to fully cook my sausage now, but if I am sitting down to dinner, and I realize it is still a little pink in the middle, I just go with it and take the risk.

As far as restaurants go, getting food poisoning at a place is definately bad, but I don't consider it an ultimate unforgiveable sin. If the food is good, and the problem isn't chronic, I will still go back. My roomate once got food poisoning from a local chinese place which I love. In reparation they offered him a $20 or so gift card, which he was sickened to use. I certainly had no problem using it when he offered it to me. Anything in life involves risk and hey, everyone gets sick from time to time.

Cook good food, take basic precautions, but don't take the fun and joy out of cooking by turning the kitchen into something that looks like a clean room at the Intel factory or a research lab at the CDC.

[coquus]

I was really looking for a new Heading for the Society, something like Beyond Food Safety. While I do agree with the response that if integrity is ingrained in the culture of the cook, he or she is more likely to act responsibly, I am really reserving my time for discussion of more importance than me spending a night on the toilet not really a discussion of ways to get sick, but more on this later. Maybe Food that Kills would be a better title.

[Pam R]

Honestly, food safety has never seemed to be a big issue with me. 

[...]

Anything in life involves risk and hey, everyone gets sick from time to time. 

Cook good food, take basic precautions, but don't take the fun and joy out of cooking by turning the kitchen into something that looks like a clean room at the Intel factory or a research lab at the CDC.

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Yikes! I cringed while I read this. A homecook may feel this way, but I don't want to think that any professional kitchen selling food would have this laissez-faire attitude. Going to a restaurant shouldn't involve a risk - if I want to take risks, it's up to me to do it on my own time.

Don't forget - it's a business.

[jbonne]

i would direct your attention to the smackdown from Bobby Flay that one of the hopefuls (Hans, i believe) got last month on "Next Food Network Star" when he dared talk about salmonella and proper handling.

i'd say the fact that cooking shows, among many places, don't want to talk about food safety is indicative of the gap between food fetishism, which seems to account for about 90 percent of all foodie interest these days, and a professional, sensible understanding of safety and handling.

[TPO]

Honestly, food safety has never seemed to be a big issue with me. 

[...]

Anything in life involves risk and hey, everyone gets sick from time to time. 

Cook good food, take basic precautions, but don't take the fun and joy out of cooking by turning the kitchen into something that looks like a clean room at the Intel factory or a research lab at the CDC.

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Yikes! I cringed while I read this. A homecook may feel this way, but I don't want to think that any professional kitchen selling food would have this laissez-faire attitude. Going to a restaurant shouldn't involve a risk - if I want to take risks, it's up to me to do it on my own time.

Don't forget - it's a business.

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Driving a car involves a lot of risk, but I still want the car manufacturers to follow safety regulations to make my risk as low as possible.

I am not in the food industry, but as a consumer food safety does concern me. I remember one time I went to the rest room right after a staff member, and I found that the only soap dispenser was empty. Sure, the employee might have gone into the kitchen to was her hands, but maybe not. And if they can't keep the soap dispenser full in the rest room, I shudder to think at what else they might not be keeping an eye one.

I recently coordinated the food for a festival that fed hundreds of people. The volunteer staff was good at following the strict guidelines -- they had to wear gloves when handling food, no one handling food could go anywhere near the money, and cold food was kept cold and hot food hot. If a bunch of inexperienced volunteers can handle that, I see no reason why we should expect less from professionals.

[anzu]

Honestly, food safety has never seemed to be a big issue with me.  I mean, obviously I'm not going to use the john, then go cook dinner without washing my hands, and I'm not going to eat meat that really smells funny, but I have no problem using the same cutting board to slice raw meat or poultry and then vegetables without washing it, well, as long as they are all going to be cooked anyway, if it were raw veggies for a salad I would rinse it under hot water first.  On the same note I eat my beef rare (and don't really care if I know where it came from), my pork medium or less, and if my chicken is a little underdone, hey, it is just juicier.  Yes, I have given myself food poisoning once, from undercooked italian sausage, and I am generally more careful to fully cook my sausage now, but if I am sitting down to dinner, and I realize it is still a little pink in the middle, I just go with it and take the risk. 

As far as restaurants go, getting food poisoning at a place is definately bad, but I don't consider it an ultimate unforgiveable sin.  If the food is good, and the problem isn't chronic, I will still go back.  My roomate once got food poisoning from a local chinese place which I love.  In reparation they offered him a $20 or so gift card, which he was sickened to use.  I certainly had no problem using it when he offered it to me.  Anything in life involves risk and hey, everyone gets sick from time to time. 

Cook good food, take basic precautions, but don't take the fun and joy out of cooking by turning the kitchen into something that looks like a clean room at the Intel factory or a research lab at the CDC.

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Nullo, how serious was the food poisoning you gave yourself?

I'm presuming it was not too bad (?)

I realise that it's not possible to convey tone when one is writing. This is NOT an attack here, I really want to know more about your position on the issue. And I'd also like to know your response to the following part of my post.

In general, (i.e. not talking just to Nullo here) I've suffered really bad food poisoning six times in all (once in Hong Kong, twice in China, and three times at the hands of my mother in law in India until I finally wrested control of the kitchen there). It took my about two years to regain the weight that I lost in just a couple of weeks of food poisoning. This is why I can't imagine having a blase attitude. Personally, I've ended up with total paranoia.

And the places I got food poisoning from? I would NEVER go back to them, not even if I were going to order different food items. Not even if I knew the place was under new ownership.

And my MIL's cooking? Well, basically I will never again eat anything she makes. Ever.

I was living in Osaka at the time when people were dying from the food poisoning outbreak there (E. coli 0157). To me, outright death is not that frightening, but what about the prospect of permanent kidney damage instead?

If you spend some time in India, and read the newspaper regularly, you will come with depressing frequency across articles talking about mass cases of death and/or hospitalization due to cases of food poisoning. A lot of the ones that make it into print involve several HUNDRED people dying due to inproper food preparation at ONE single venue (weddings for example).

If you live in India, it is pretty much guaranteed that you will know people, or will know of people, who are suffering from illness related to hygiene - dysentery, typhoid, etc. Some of them die.

(BTW, I was living in the capital of India, not some obscure backwater).

This type of thing fuels my paranoia even further.

Nowadays, if I even think that a place is going to have bad hygiene - a lot of places locally sell doubtful (IMO) sushi, for example - I'm not going to give the place the benefit of the doubt, I'm just not going to go there.

And when I have been at the home of friends and seen them lay out lettuce on the same chopping board that they earlier had raw meat lying on - and they have not even wiped down that chopping board - then I will not eat that lettuce and I will explain to them why not in the most polite and unconfrontational manner I can muster.

Poor food hygiene can kill you - if you're lucky. If you're really unlucky, it can leave you in such a physical state that you'll wish it had killed you.

We should all pay more attention to it.

[NulloModo]

Anzu -

The case I gave myself wasn't life-threatening (well, as far as I know, I never actually bothered to go to a doctor about it because it fell during a time when my University health insurance had ended, but my new job's health insurance hadn't kicked in it), but it wasn't really mild either. I basically couldn't keep anything down for a bout a week and a half other than (occasionally) some water, and was pretty much laid out the whole time.

Now, of course there are far worse cases, and far milder ones around, and as other have said most people probably have very mild cases a lot of the time and don't even corrolate it to food they have eaten.

It also makes a lot of sense for restaurants to be more careful just because as was mentioned upthread, it is a professional situation.

I'm not sure what the situation is like in Berlin, but in the U.S. severe food poisoning leading to death or serious injury is pretty damn rare, rare enough that I was willing to take the risk on the gift card passing up my friend's case as a fluke.

Basic precautions should be taken sure, but I know some people who refuse to eat street vendor food, refuse to eat something if the same person prepares there food as who takes there money, or won't eat somewhere if they see a bug or the staff isn't wearing gloves. Hey, if that is what it takes for your peace of mind, who am I to argue. Personally, I'm willing to take the risk.

[Pam R]

i'd say the fact that cooking shows, among many places, don't want to talk about food safety is indicative of the gap between food fetishism, which seems to account for about 90 percent of all foodie interest these days, and a professional, sensible understanding of safety and handling.

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Last fall I went on a mini-tour for my cookbook launch. I was doing some cooking demos and tv shows. My publisher sent me a copy of an article in a Canadian newspaper listing all of the food handling mistakes that had been documented on FoodTV Canada in about a week-long period - it was a long list. Here is a perfect example of a way to get across to the general public how important food safety is, and they are falling down on the job. There are a few hosts (I think Sara Moulton may be one) who do a good job of teaching as they cook - but there are so many others who don't.

Nullo - I wouldn't be too sure that the instances of foodborne illnesses in the US is low. Leading to death or serious injury? I don't know. But I'm sure there are numerous accounts of sickness that never get diagnosed - and even if they are, it doesn't mean that it's going to hit the news. I got sick when I was in Minnesota a couple of years ago - reported it to the hotel I was staying in (where I had eaten) and a medic was sent up to see me - but nothing was reported to anybody in the health department.

Dont' forget this scary issue - no matter how careful you are, there are certain foods and organisms that can cause serious damage. About a year and a half ago there was a major concern regarding green onions. Washing them didn't kill off whatever it was that was in them - so eating them raw was out of the question. We stopped using them in our restaurant for about 2 months - until our supplier assured us that they were getting them from a different source. There are foods that grow with microrganisms in them - in contaminated soils. You take a chance every time you eat garlic or honey. Check out the CDC.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Pam R (log)

[TPO]

Here are some estimated numbers on foodbourne illnesses and deaths:

We [the CDC] estimate that foodborne diseases cause approximately 76 million illnesses, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths in the United States each year. Known pathogens account for an estimated 14 million illnesses, 60,000 hospitalizations, and 1,800 deaths. Three pathogens, Salmonella, Listeria, and Toxoplasma, are responsible for 1,500 deaths each year, more than 75% of those caused by known pathogens, while unknown agents account for the remaining 62 million illnesses, 265,000 hospitalizations, and 3,200 deaths.

My name is Tammy, and I am a Google-aholic.

[coquus]

Toxoplasmosis, isn't that what you get from that. Aids ridden, junky Tommy got that in Trainspotting because he was in the flat with the kitten that never had it's litter box changed for three weeks. I wonder how that gets in food, spores?

Pam R-The reason that the medic didn't contact the health department is that here in the US, medic's are probably paid by that hotel, not the government, so you should have reported your illness to the health department directly if you wanted retribution. Hepatitis C is a special case scenario, in the case you mention, if your facts are straight about washing the onions, there was nothing that the Chile's worker could have done to prevent it's spread anyhow, the virus was (claimed to be) in the onions from Mexico. Were they pre sliced onions, that's probably why. I think that all the best practises in the world don't make up for a little pride in our work. Do you think that any slop chain restaurant worker cares about what they serve? I don't, and if they do they aren't happy serving the slop. I'd rather take my chances at the independants, not to say I'm not picky about things, I look for dirt, and believe it's there, but I'm still slightly more likely to never come back if I have a poorly cooked or presented meal the first time than if food i've enjoyed many times before makes me sick. I'm never going to be giving the chef the twenty questions about how closely he follows the health codes, but if I catch them feeding me something they wouldn't gladly eat, shame on them.

I suppose i've wasted enough time on here with what I didn't want to talk about.