The Correct Way to List Wines

[slkinsey]

For our Thanksgiving dinner, I usually make a "menu" on the back of the place cards listing the food and wine served. In doing this, I have always been a little mystified as to what I should be writing down for the wines. After all, there is a lot of information on the bottle. I bet I am not the only person who has met with this problem, so I thought some of the resident wine experts might give a few pointers. As a starting point, I'll show what I have written in my notes and hope for some concrete feedback. But perhaps we might hear about some general rules of thumb, if any exist for this kind of thing.

1. (with crudites)

Nino Franco – Prosecco Rustico di Valdobbiadene

(there is no year on the bottle)

2. (with raw oyster and cucumber granita)

Clos des Briords – "Cuvée Vieilles Vignes" Muscadet de Sèvre et Maine sur Lie 2002

3. & 4. (with cauliflower puree and curry oil, then continuing into mixed herb salad)

Domaine Saint Vincent – “La Papareille” Samur Blanc 2002

5. (with roasted corn/stilton soufflés, Brussels sprouts & guanciale)

Domaine Alain Hudelot-Noellat – Bourgogne Pinot Noir 2000

6. (with lemon thyme sorbet)

Vigneto Biancospino – “La Spinetta” Moscato d’Asti 2002

7. (with turkey breast roasted, legs braised in red wine/port + cornbreda dressing)

Mas Foulaquier – “Le Rollier” Pic Saint-Loup 2001 and

Coturri – “Albarello” Sonoma Valley Red Wine 2001

These are more or less direct transcriptions of what I wrote down when I bought the wines, and I have no basis for knowing what is pertinent information.

Help?

[Varmint]

When I'm not serving something that comes from a Mason Jar, I usually describe the selections as "Red" or "White."

[guajolote]

I just show people the label on the bottle.

My personal tradition is to serve a double magnum of Montepulciano. after a couple of cocktails no one can taste the wine.

[Dave the Cook]

I lean towards the notions of Dean and my other brother Dean -- my guests consider themselves lucky if I remove the price tag from the bottle before unscrewing the cap.

OTOH, when I've catered, Sam's question has come up, and I'd be interested in knowing how it's supposed to be handled.

[fresco]

I often wish I was organized enough to make lists of this sort, but I'm not and unlikely to develop the discipline. A grocery list on the back of an envelope is about the extent of my cataloguing ability. So far, no one has complained.

[LJC]

There is no right or wrong way.

The information that most people care about is producer, appellation or variety, any vineyard specs (i.e. old vine or single vineyard name) and vintage. I typically do the following:

Samur Blanc “La Papareille” 2002, Domaine Saint Vincent

(appellation) (vineyard) (vintage) (producer)

[tcizma]

Here's how I would list it if I was putting it on a wine list ( my only frame of reference):

ex #1 Nino Franco Prosecco "rustico valdobbiadine"

( who made it) ( what it is ) ( proprietary name or vineyard location)

(?) ,Italy NV

[slkinsey]

Here's how I would list it if I was putting it on a wine list ( my only frame of reference):

ex #1 Nino Franco Prosecco "rustico valdobbiadine"

( who made it) ( what it is ) ( proprietary name or vineyard location)

(?) ,Italy NV

Actually, your way of saying it would be the same as mine:

Nino Franco = Maker

Prosecco Rustico = Name of Wine (prosecco = name of grape)

di Valdobbiadine = Region of Origin

The prosecco's actually the easy one... it's the others that perplex me, although I think I have largely followed your convention.

[tcizma]

Here's a direct clip from a menu where I listed the wines being served at a tasting with food. You probably don't need the bin #'s I suppose...

188 didier daguenau "pur sang" pouilly fume loire, france 1999

189 nicolas joly "becherelle" savennieres loire, france 1999

190 la poussie sancerre loire, france 1999

191 jean reverdy " la reine blanche" sancerre loire, france 2001

192 pascal jolivet "les caillottes" sancerre loire, france 2000

193 marc bredif vouvray loire, france 2000

There is no right or wrong way, but this at least answers most guests questions. Assuming of course they know their grapes!

Ps your menu sounds great, can I come?

[Echezeaux]

I like to list the wines by producer or brand name, vintage and then type of wine with any special designation following that.

I would, then, list the Muscadet as Domaine de la Pépière 2002 Muscadet de Sèvre et Maine sur Lie Clos des Briords "Cuvée Vieilles Vignes"...

Domaine Saint-Vincent: It's correctly spelled "Saumur".

On the Moscato: La Spinetta or Rivetti would be fine for the brand name/label, with 2002 Moscato d'Asti following that, followed by the bottling or vineyard, in this case Vigneto Biancospino.

[KatieLoeb]

I would only change this to be:

Domaine Saint Vincent, Samur Blanc “La Papareille”, 2002

(producer) (appellation) (vineyard) (vintage)

And Sam, can I join you too? Nice menu and wine selections! I'm jealous.

[russ parsons]

as everyone has said, there is no right or wrong way to do the listing. but the style we follow (as often as we can) and the one most publications seem to is this:

Vintage/Producer/Varietal or Region/"Special appellation"

In other words,

2002 Domaine Saint Vincent Samur Blanc “La Papareille”

for US:

2000 Sinskey Vineyards Merlot "Carneros" (or "Special Reserve" or "Carneros Special Reserve").

[Boris_A]

Hello Sam

Being a co-editor of a quite comprehensive wine buying guide (vinfox), I had to find a convenient solution for this problem.

Our nomenclature is exactly the same as Katie Loeb proposes: Toscana sample page

This scheme is the most used in wine publications as far as I know.

The correct use of accents (^, ~, é, ...) looks always nice and helps to pretend knowledge in dubious cases .

Unfortunately, the French and Italians usually dont' use them with capital letters and the bottle label can be misleading for this tiny detail. So you might change "Hudelot-Noellat" to "Hudelot-Noëllat".

And maybe you like to add "NV" for non vintage wines to be topmost correct, as suggested already by Ted Cizma

BTW, I share not only the same nomenclature preferences like Katie but her jealousy too.

Santé et bon appétit, Boris

[ledervin]

I think it depends on your audience....if you have serious wine connaiseurs than your descriptions are good....if you have medium level interest, I'd want to make sure to include the varietal and if you have anyone else in America...red or white will probably suffice.

Have a great feast!

[Mark Sommelier]

For French wines outside Bordeaux, I use this format:

Muscadet de Sevre et Maine, "Cuvée One", Domaine Metairou 2002

Montrachet, Grand Cru, Domaine de la Romanée Conti, 1999

Volnay, "Clos des 60 Ouvrées", Premier Cru, Domaine de la Bousse d'Or 1990

Minervois, "Les Aspres", Domaine Cros 1999

For Bordeaux:

Chateau Ducru-Beaucaillou, St. Julien 2ieme Grand Cru Classée, 1982

California and Australia are toss-ups:

Cabernet Sauvignon "Reserve", Robert Mondavi Winery, Oakville 1978

or

Robert Mondavi Winery, Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve, Oakville 1978

Shiraz Reserve "Integrity", Marquis-Philips, Mclaren Vale, South Australia 2001

or

"Integrity", Shiraz Reserve, Marquis-Philips, Maclaren Vale, South Australia 2001

[slkinsey]

OK, so I'm going with the nomenclature suggested by Katie Loeb and others. It makes sense to me, and it's the closest to what I was already doing. So, would it be something like this:

Nino Franco – Prosecco Rustico di Valdobbiadene NV

Clos des Briords – Muscadet de Sèvre et Maine sur Lie "Cuvée Vieilles Vignes" 2002

Domaine Saint Vincent – Saumur Blanc “La Papareille” 2002

Domaine Alain Hudelot-Noëllat –Pinot Noir “Bourgogne” 2000

Rivetti – Moscato d’Asti “Vigneto Biancospino” 2002

Mas Foulaquier – Pic Saint-Loup “Le Rollier” 2001

Coturri – Sonoma Valley Red Wine “Albarello” 2001

[Mark Sommelier]

OK, so I'm going with the nomenclature suggested by Katie Loeb and others. It makes sense to me, and it's the closest to what I was already doing. So, would it be something like this:

Nino Franco – Prosecco Rustico di Valdobbiadene NV

Clos des Briords – Muscadet de Sèvre et Maine sur Lie "Cuvée Vieilles Vignes" 2002

Domaine Saint Vincent – Saumur Blanc “La Papareille” 2002

Domaine Alain Hudelot-Noëllat –Pinot Noir “Bourgogne” 2000

Rivetti – Moscato d’Asti “Vigneto Biancospino” 2002

Mas Foulaquier – Pic Saint-Loup “Le Rollier” 2001

Coturri – Sonoma Valley Red Wine “Albarello” 2001

I hate to disagree, but this is the wrong way. The wine is not called Nino Franco, it is called Prosecco Rustico di Valdobbiadene. It should be written as :

Prosecco Rustico di valdobbiadene, Viticoltori Nino Franco, NV

Likewise the others:

Muscadet de Sevre et Maine sur Lies, Cuvee Vielles Vignes, Domaine Clos des Briords 2002

Saumur Blanc "La Papareille", Domaine St. Vincent 2002

Bourgogne Rouge, Domaine Alain Hudelot-Noellat, 2000

Moscato d'Asti "Vigneto Biancospino", Azienda Agricola Dante Rivetti, Piemonte, 2002

Pic St.-Loup "Le Rollier", Domaine Mas Foulaquier 2001

Hope this helps. I am a stickler about this stuff on my winelist.

[slkinsey]

Cool, Mark. Many thanks.

Would the last one then be:

Sonoma Valley Red Wine “Albarello,” H. Coturri & Sons., 2001

So, I gather than you don't think it's a good idea to list the producer first? Also, I'd be interested to hear whether the system you propose is an "official one" and, whether it is or not, why you think this is the best way to list wines.

[Mark Sommelier]

Cool, Mark. Many thanks.

Would the last one then be:

Sonoma Valley Red Wine “Albarello,” H. Coturri & Sons., 2001

So, I gather than you don't think it's a good idea to list the producer first? Also, I'd be interested to hear whether the system you propose is an "official one" and, whether it is or not, why you think this is the best way to list wines.

Dear Kinseydude,

I said that California is a toss-up place. It depends on what section of the winelist it goes. If it is just for listing on a menu, I would say:

Albarello, Red Table Wine, H. Coturri and Sons, 2001

Mr. Kinsey, as to the second question, no, the producer is not the most important thing to list first, it is the grape or place name of the wine. Producer is always listed last. Yes, I am proposing this as the "official" way. I learned it 20 years ago and like it.

[Boris_A]

no, the producer is not the most important thing to list first

Objection:

1) I think among wine aficionados, the producers name is the most important thing.

Prices indicate the same: its level (for the same appellation) depends much more on the producers name than on the wine classification. Examples:

The Super Tuscans (formerly vini da tavola) ist a excellent example. The "appellation" was virtually without any merit.

Another example: I remember that Leonetti produced serveral years ago (1996) a "Merlot America". But the interesting part (and price determining) is "Leonetti", not "American Red Wine".

So there is good reason to list the producer first, even I can see your preference for listing the appellation first.

2) When wine nomenclature is considered as something like data modelling (as in database technique) you'll find:

- a producer entity (producing wine in different regions and appelations (even countries)

- serveral appellation entities (same producer making several wines in Sonoma and in Napa)

- maybe several vineyard (climats) names from the same appellation wine

- maybe one or more a fantasy names for the same appellation/vineyard

- maybe several fuder(barrel) numbers for the same wine (in Germany, argh!)

- several vintage entities for the same wine.

In general, you get a logical, unfolding tree structure (with exceptions of course, as always when trying projection of the real world into a database) with producers name as a convenient root.

This is based on my experiences when publishing every year a buying guide which encompasses as many as 110'000 offerings for 25'000 different wines and trying to find a convenient, uniform scheme.

As for the actual wine names on the list:

I found about 19 entries (Veronelli, Parker, Gambero Rosso, Wine Spectator) for the Prosecco, and all are listed as:

"Prosecco di Valdobbiadene Rustico" NV (Rustico is an addition by the producer not belonging to the official appellation name: "Prosecco di Valdobbiadene").

All those publications list producer name first, BTW.

As for: Mas Foulaquier – Pic Saint-Loup “Le Rollier” 2001, the official appellation name is "Coteaux du Languedoc Pic Saint-Loup", "Pic St-Loup" is an allowed though not enforced sub-appellation addition to the regular "Coteaux d. L." AOC name.

The world seen as a Mandelbrot set: the closer you get, the more structures come up.

Regards, Boris

[admajoremgloriam]

The more usual way you find on menus here in France is the way Mark Sommelier suggested and this is considered the official way. It comes from the idea that you list from the general to the particular, the vintage coming last as the most specific information. Think of it this way: the information you put should go in decreasing order as to the number of bottles that probably exist in its category.

For example in:

Bourgogne Rouge, Domaine Alain Hudelot-Noellat, 2000

There are many Bourgogne rouges, within those, there are less made by Noellat, and within the Noellat even less of the 2000 vintage. Following that idea, I believe:

Volnay, "Clos des 60 Ouvrées", Premier Cru, Domaine de la Bousse d'Or 1990

should be listed slightly differently, the "Premier Cru" information coming before the name of the particular "climat" (i.e. "Clos des 60 Ouvrées").

[tcizma]

It is true that most general to most specific is probably the "official" way to list the wines. However, having looked at one or two winelists, most of the people writing those lists didn't get the memo.

For the "lay drinker" and even most intermediate enthusiasts, having the producer up front is helpful from a comfort zone perspective. ex.: " I 've never heard of that "albarello", but I know I like other wines by Coturi".

Much like more experienced wine geeks, when faced with an unfamiliar bottle, look to the importers name.

Any way you list in in a home setting is fine, of course. Just so you have enough wine!

[Boris_A]

on menus here in France is the way Mark Sommelier suggested and this is considered the official way.

Of course it's useful to arrange wines in a restaurant list by hierarchic criterias as color followed by appellation.

In this sense, listing wines by appellation first is "official". But for a private dinner or tasting with a fixed sequence, there's not much sense for example to list white wines first, so I'd still say wine lovers are interested in the producers name first.

As for the classifications like Grand Cru, 2ieme Grand Cru Clasée, those are rather misleading and should be avoided, especially for people with less knowledge. Of course it's in the interest of heavy croppers and underachievers to pretend that his "Clos de la Roche Grand Cru" is better than a premier cru wine of Emanuel Rouget or that 2nd class Rauzan-Gassies is a better Margaux than 3rd class Palmer.

Any way you list in in a home setting is fine, of course. Just so you have enough wine!

Agree, agree, agree!