Paris Dining

[byrdhouse]

One of the hazzards of spontaneity is absence of research. In light of Bux's comments, we did some of the latter, discovering that we'd planned a "casual" journey of over 3,000 kilometers in a little over a week! Of course we'd never have kept to such a frenetic schedule, but now we can plan more effectively.

We've decided to limit the trip to the Bordeaux-Narbonne route. We may make a foray to the Biscay coast (one of my favorite broadside ballads, The Raggle-Taggle Gypsies, refers to "bonny, bonny Briskey-oh"). Yes, we are aware that many establishments may be closed, the downside of traveling off-off-season. Loufood has gotten us started out with recommendations for charcuterie and cassoulet in Paris. If anyone else has suggestions in light of our amended itinerary, we'd be grateful.

[Wolfville]

I am one sleep away from my first trip to France! I was wondering whether anyone has had any experience with staying and eating at Thomieux? My friends who moved to France from Canada this summer swear by the place.

[Bux]

There have been a couple of reports on Thoumieux here on eGullet.

I've expressed an interest in it because of it's old fashioned menu and appearance, but it's not been terrilbly well reviewed here. See Thoumieux in the 7th Paris. Earlier there was a more negative comment in a thread on the Best Neighborhood in Paris.

[OAKGLEN]

Thoumieux (Zagat 13 food rating) is a mystery; very popular with locals, you can eat cheaply with the prix-fixe which would be a mistake, or dine like the locals do on confit and cassoulet. Dany, our driver when we are in Paris, says it is his favorite in the 7th. Our favorite is Clos des Gourmet (Zagat 20 food rating), 16, ave Rapp; the food and presentation is worthy of a Michelin *, the prices are quite reasonable (33E prix-fixe dinner) and full of locals and Parisian businessmen. The staff has minimal English language skills so some ability to converse in French would be helpfull. JP

[Busboy]

One of the hazzards of spontaneity is absence of research.   In light of Bux's comments, we did some of the latter, discovering that we'd planned a "casual" journey of over 3,000 kilometers in a little over a week!  Of course we'd never have kept to such a frenetic schedule, but now we can plan more effectively.

We've decided to limit the trip to the Bordeaux-Narbonne route.  We may make a foray to the Biscay coast (one of my favorite broadside ballads, The Raggle-Taggle Gypsies, refers to "bonny, bonny Briskey-oh").  Yes, we are aware that many establishments may be closed, the downside of traveling off-off-season.  Loufood has gotten us started out with recommendations for charcuterie and cassoulet in Paris.  If anyone else has suggestions in light of our amended itinerary, we'd be grateful.

Though undoubtedly less reliable than loufood, Patricia Wells' "Food Lovers Guide to Paris" is pretty useful. It's cross-referenced by type of establishment and by arrondissement, so if you find yourself, say, in the mood for bread and cheese as you wander through the 4th, you can whip out the book, locate a baker and a fromagerie nearby, and pop over for a snack.

Living almost entirely on cheese and bread, by the way, is a pretty good way to stretch the budget as you wander around France. Hell, it's a pretty good way to live even if your budget is unlimited. Also, I seem to recall some decent traiteurs -- French delis, if you will, selling prepared foods to go -- for lower-budget in-room dining. loufood may have an opinion or a recommendation.

[marcus]

Marie-Anne Cantin - one of the best and my personal favourite fromagere in the world.

loufood, I have had much, much better experiences with Barthelemy. Their Vacherin is a wonder of the world. How do you compare these shops?

Edited November 3, 2003 by marcus (log)

[Bux]

Thoumieux (Zagat 13 food rating) is a mystery; very popular with locals ...

Perhaps Zagat is on target here, but the fact that it's a popularity contest is precisely why I find their surveys unreliable. It may be that the local Parisians don't partcipate in the Paris Zagat and that as a result it has a rarified group of contributors. I know Paris is not what it was in the sixties when I first visited. It's all too easy to get bad food. Last month there was a pretty little cafe/brasserie on our corner and it was always full at lunch time. One day went in to get a light bite--some croque or salade--and were thoroughly disappointed by what we had, and that was without seeing the waiter drop a basket of bread, pick the pieces off the floor and serve the bread. I used to advise Europeans coming to NY that a full house was not necessarily a sign the food was good. Sadly that's true in Paris as well nowadays.

Still, if the confit is good it's worth knowing about. Is it?

[Louisa Chu]

Jamie - atypical! I probably walked right by you that night - it's on the regular dog walk route!

Busboy - you are too funny. But yeah, the French holy trinity - bread, cheese, wine. And yes, the traiteurs are great - but for seriously low budget don't forget that you can get a sandwich at just about any bar for just a few bucks - cheaper standing rather than sitting.

marcus, I'm biased towards Marie-Anne Cantin for at least a few reasons - one, she's right around the corner from my home, so I'm much more familiar and intimate with them, and them with me and my tastes; two, they store/serve their cheeses at more correct temps - and display them stunningly, beautifully so; and three, they supply our cheeses at ADPA. I've had the Vacherin Mont d'Or from both and I've found them both perfectly good - but they usually have more of a choice of ripeness - in all cheeses really - at Marie-Anne Cantin. What's been the differences in your experiences and how do you compare them?

[picaman]

Jamie - atypical! I probably walked right by you that night - it's on the regular dog walk route!

You walked by? Then it's YOUR fault!

Thanks for your assessment. We moved to the small room at the rear of the restaurant after being seated next to a very loud "ugly American" (pardon the expression) couple, but didn't fare much better back there. Good to know the whole experience was atypical, as we really did enjoy the food. We'll go back next time with a fresh attitude.

Jamie

[marcus]

What's been the differences in your experiences and how do you compare them?

My biggest complaint with Marie-Anne Cantin is that the last time I was there, I felt that they were pushing their less good stock, because they didn't know me and considered me to be just a foreign tourist. I have never had that perception at Barthelemy, and also have found the cheeses to be finer with greater depth of developed flavor. In terms of Parisians voting with their feet, the crowds at Barthelemy are many times greater than at Cantin which is usually not crowded, while the prices are certainly no lower. My wife and I have done blind tasting comparisons of the Saint Marcellin at Barthelemy and Aloesse, with Barthelemy winning by a narrow margin. Neither quite compared to my memory of Marie Richard's in Lyon which gets my vote for greatest cheese shop in the world. Barthelemy also sells preserves that are 65% fruit which are the best that I've had commercially packaged, better than Fauchon which had been my benchmark.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

One of the places I like in this area is Au Petit Tonneau (20, rue Surcouf.)  Outstanding food (I had lentils with crayfish followed by veal casserole, although my partner's sole was the star of the evening), friendly management, and cats around to make me miss my own cats a bit less. 

Oh yes, Au Petit Tonneau is a tiny, nieghborhood treasure. It is, in my mind, the classic moma and pop operation, no decor, the diners all seemingly regulars, the food honest, well conceived and prepared, and certainly generous, as is the service. Madame Boyer serves up the only Andouillette that I can describe as "delicious". (She came to our table after dinner during her round of chatting up guests, looked at my empty plate, showed relief and confessed that she always worried when non-French ordered andouilette.)

[Bux]

We've decided to limit the trip to the Bordeaux-Narbonne route.  We may make a foray to the Biscay coast (one of my favorite broadside ballads, The Raggle-Taggle Gypsies, refers to "bonny, bonny Briskey-oh").  Yes, we are aware that many establishments may be closed, the downside of traveling off-off-season.  Loufood has gotten us started out with recommendations for charcuterie and cassoulet in Paris.  If anyone else has suggestions in light of our amended itinerary, we'd be grateful.

I'm still not all that clear on your intended route. I'm assuming you've already purchased round trip tickets from California to Paris and back. If not, and if you are by any chance flying on Air France, I believe you can elect to return from almost any city in France with an airport for a small additional fee and thus shorten your driving itinerary. I don't know from whom you're renting the car either. Most of the major companies allow drop off within France at no additional fee.

I gather you're going from Paris to the Loire and then down to Bordeaux and the Basque Coast and then over to Narbonne. From there, how do you get to Paris, by car?

I think you already know that on New Year's day, you may find pickings very slim. Lots of places will be closed, but not all. I was surprised to be able to find a few shops open early in the morning in Marseille including a good cafe/bakery.

I'm not sure what kind of specific information you can expect to get here as it's still a large area and it's hard to know exactly where you will will stop and what towns you will hit along the way. An awful lot of our early trips were made off-season and we just drove around rather aimlessly getting to know France. At the lower price range, there are few restaurants that are so memorable they will stay in one's mind. I've eaten in and enjoyed many local restaurants, but have no way of knowing if the restaurant is really better than the one around the corner and there doesn't seem a reason to take notes on these places. At one point you mention that you're not looking for Michelin starred restaurants, but you should be aware that Michelin also makes reference to places that are particularly inexpensive and to places that offer great meals at reasonable prices. I find the Michelin guide as useful as the lower and middle points as I do at the high end. Sometimes more so, because their listings are so extensive and easy to reference. I'd advise using the Michelin road maps. These are not only easy to read, but underline the names of towns with a restaurant or hotel that has a listing in the guide making it useful for planning ahead.

As for what to see, as opposed to where to sleep and where to eat, I generally recommend the Michelin green guides. There may be better guides around, but the Michelin series seem to offer a good combination of comprehensive and detailed. The ones in French are more detailed and cover a smaller area than the ones published in English.

As for specific information in the Pays Basque, much of it is summer resort. A favorite hotel restaurant, although we've not been there recently is the Ithurria in Ainhoa, but the rooms run about a hundred euros and it's closed November through March. Bayonne is a much more interesting town than Biarritz. Biarritz has a beach, which will be of no interest in December and January. In Bayonne, there's a nice place that serves savory and sweet tarts. It's called Tarte Julie. It's a great place for a cheap meal. It's on the rue Thiers across the street from the Grand Hotel. Fine quiche like tarts, but it's not a destination place. It's just a convenient place if you're in the area. The indoor market in Bayonne is worth a look, but it's not a large market. The Laiterie (or Fromagerie) de la Nive is a good cheese shop and a friendly one. They were helpful in selecting cheeses to bring back last time I was there. Unfortunately the Moulin de Bassilour had closed its stall in the market. They made the best gateaux basques I have ever had. When I asked if there was another dependable purveyor in the immediate area, I was told no by the older woman in the cheese shop. She said I had to go to the moulin where they were baked near Bidart. The younger guy suggested a place he considered the best near the market. A shop across the street from the market had buttery gateaux with great body and flavor, but unfortunately they used a sour cherry filling. For me, the only proper filling is a black cherry jam and neither red cherries or pastry cream is acceptable. Other places we tried in St. Jean de Luz, didn't measure up to those I remembered from previous purchases at the Moulin de Bassilour. The chocolate shop Henriot in Biarritz had the second best. I may be making too much of these cakes, but my mouth waters for them when I get near the area, and we didn't manage to find one I could heartily recommend this past trip. That's not to say the search wasn't enjoyable. In St. Jean de Luz, there was a restaurant run by a Frenchman who apprenticed at Daniel in NY. It was heads and shoulders above the places listed in Michelin. I don't know if it's still under the same ownership nor do I remember the prices. The name is Olatua.

In Bordeaux I'd recommend la Tupina for the pigeons roasting on spits against a wall of fire. Other things may be good, but I'd stick to grilled meats and birds which they seem to do well. I wouldn't order fancy preparations. I think it may be in your range, or worth a splurge.

[menton1]

Your revised itinerary still is, IMHO, quite over-ambitious; such a whirlwind trip will probably leave you with blurred memories, something like watching a tape at a faster speed than which it was recorded.

The area from Bordeaux to Narbonne is still quite large, and you could spend a week of meandering there just to get a good feel.

My best recommendation for only one week for you is to stay in Paris the entire time and just take some day trips if you must out of there, by train; Paris certainly has enough to keep one occupied for 7 days (or 70), and, considering the 2 major holidays you will be encountering, Paris has your best opportunity for finding some restaurants and tourist spots open on those days. In the provinces, the streets will be rolled up.

[byrdhouse]

eGullet has been a wonderful source to help us make plans for our first visit to France in late December and early January. We will have four days in Paris, but we plan on a couple of days each in Chinon and Bordeaux (where we'll be on the New Year), with travel days in between. As we were advised, Marseilles and the Basque coast are too ambitious for this trip. Traveling in rainy weather on country back roads is not a hardship; we reside in Humboldt County. Warnings of slim pickings after the 1st have been duly heeded; we'll have bread, cheese, and paté, and perhaps a flask of Marc. Our thanks to Bux, Pan, Loufood, Busboy, Menton1, and everyone who has assisted us in defining and refining our precious 10 days, and for the many resources they've helpfully recommended.

I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naive, and ye set me straight.