Dinosaur BBQ (NYC)

[jhlurie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any sort of physical handicap to being located in NYC? Is there any reason why Dino, or any other BBQ place here, can't be as good as the best places throughout the South?

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Plenty of reasons. Fire and building codes are VERY strict in New York, compared to most of the South. It costs insane amounts of money to comply with those codes, and I'd bet many of them make what's easy to accomplish in the South much tougher here.

That's before we even get into the issues of staffing, the availability of ingredients, etc. etc. Heck, the only compensation I can think of for being in the Northeast is that good wood is probably even more plentiful, even if the delivery mechanisms for BBQ joints aren't as well established.

[Jason Perlow]

For a restaurant that is only a month or so old, Dinosaur is serving excellent barbecue, never mind the fact that it is in New York. Barbecue is a technical process, every restaurant needs to tweak and test and continually refine that process until they get the consistent end product that they want. That kind of a thing can take months to perfect.

[verysleepy]

Hi again. I was finally able to get into Dinosaur, and ate there this Tuesday lunch time. Previously, I was only able to take out- but still enjoyed it.

I truly loved the food that day, and certainly think it is better than any other of the NY barbeque bastions. If they keep improving, Dinosaur will contend with some of the finer bbq restaurants in the country.

This year, I have been fortunate to try out the best in Memphis, including Memphis in May, great bbq in Dallas, Lockhart, and Taylor Texas. In addition we travelled to Raleigh, Goldsboro, and Lexington. All these places serve the VERY BEST.

Having read the Voice article- I think it is not representative of the food that I ate on either occasion, at Dinosaur. I really believe that the pulled pork is on par with anything I had in North Carolina. The ribs were succulent. The outside was wonderfully flavored, a bit crunchy, with the interior moist. Perhaps the best surprise was the BBQ chicken- wonderfully flavored.

Again, as an answer to Wannabechef- the NY DEP probably have some sort of emissions controls that are very strict. I know for instance that Blue Smoke has to vent out the smoke 17 stories up, and it cost an absolute fortune to do so. When I visited down to Lexington, NC... the entire town was redolent with BBQ smoke, and I am sure it wouldn't pass environmental controls here.

I am so happy to have Dinosaur here. I only wish the restaurant seated more people. That is my only knock on it. There seems to be a bunch of wasted space, where more tables could appear.

Nadine

Edited December 30, 2004 by verysleepy (log)

[MarketStEl]

Sietsema's comment about liquid smoke flavoring in the sauce is indeed a cheap shot. Many excellent barbecue sauces--including my personal favorite, Gates'--use it as an ingredient.

OTOH, while the remark was a bit snide, I would admit to being puzzled by a lack of any wood-smoke smell in the vicinity of the restaurant. Jeez, I was strolling down the outer reaches of Philadelphia's Baltimore Avenue one day, waiting for an inbound 34 trolley back to Penn, and suddenly smelled sweet smoke. It wasn't until I had traveled another block that I spied the little 'cue joint nestled within the trolley turnaround loop. (Unfortunately, a car was waiting there, or I would have eaten. The place has since closed.)

Similarly, the six Gates BBQ outlets in the Kansas City area are pure Fast Food Modern in their architecture and kept spotlessly clean, neither of which are desirable qualities in an authentic 'cue joint (well, maybe clean, for obvious health reasons). But stand outside any of them and soon you will catch the wood perfume scent.

I would chalk this up to local air quality regulations, though: I can't recall smelling much of anything walking past numerous Manhattan eateries where, were they elsewhere, I would have at least smelled the grease fumes pouring through the exhaust fan.

Purists would deduct points for the presence of gas flames anywhere near the meats being barbecued. Well, this is New York City, and I'm not a purist--and, apparently, neither are the Southern places that use the model of smoker you've pictured above. So it's not wood-and-only-wood? If it's good, give 'em a pass here.

[Liz Johnson]

I would admit to being puzzled by a lack of any wood-smoke smell in the vicinity of the restaurant. 

You don't smell it outside Blue Smoke either. Both places have smokers that are very well ventilated. If you catch the right breeze, you might be able to smell some Dino smoke somewhere in Fort Lee.

[Fat Guy]

They either use wood or they don't. Sietsema is a journalist. He could have picked up the phone and asked, and if he doubted the answer he could have confirmed with a supplier or other source.

There's much interesting discussion of the challenges of NYC barbecue in our Q&A with Danny Meyer.

[wannabechef]

Thanks FG. this is great stuff.

They either use wood or they don't. Sietsema is a journalist. He could have picked up the phone and asked, and if he doubted the answer he could have confirmed with a supplier or other source.

There's much interesting discussion of the challenges of NYC barbecue in our Q&A with Danny Meyer.

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[bbq chef]

I would admit to being puzzled by a lack of any wood-smoke smell in the vicinity of the restaurant. 

You don't smell it outside Blue Smoke either. Both places have smokers that are very well ventilated. If you catch the right breeze, you might be able to smell some Dino smoke somewhere in Fort Lee.

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You would be surprised how quickly the smell dissipates. I can stand outside the back door of my restauraunt while we are smoking and not catch a whiff of smoke. The smell seems to go straigt up and waft away. The time that you can smell it is when it is very humid out and the smoke gets sort of smothered and held down. This time of year, especially if it is clear and cold, the heat from the exhaust as well as the smell just goes straight up.

[woodburner]

There's plenty of wood. Sietsema clearly has not seen the whole back area of the restaurant where all the smoking takes place. I have.

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Both the Syracuse and Rochester locations, use the J&R Manufacturing Oyler pit, Model 700. Oyler pits do not produce a gas assisted pit, only wood burning. Both of these units use a ferris wheel type cooking chamber. Automated rotating racks, spin very slowly creating a self-baste for the meats.

The NYC location uses the Olyer Model 700e, which is fairly new for J&R. The only difference in the "e" model is that electric elements can be used to assist the woodburning firebox, to maintain a specified set temperature.

After reading the Siesema review it appears to me, he wants to make a few points, regarding bbq.

His preference of bbq cooking is the raw wood, burnt down to coals type bbq, done by real pit masters, not the set-it forget type units, used by some restaurants.

When he mentions smoked chicken, to me it's somewhat funny, but he is correct, in saying a "smoked chicken" will have a skin like latex. That's pretty much an accurate statement when you bbq chicken in the 225f range for 3 or 4 hours. The skin is almost inedible, but the meat oh so good.

I've eaten at the Syracuse location, and I loved the food, and I doubt the NYC location is off, even a smidgon of that Syracuse flavor.

woodburner

[Jason Perlow]

Thanks woodburner, that was very informative.

The J&R site, with everything you wanted to know about the Oyler pit is here:

http://www.jrmanufacturing.com/oyler2b.html

[Fat Guy]

The NYC location uses the Olyer Model 700e, which is fairly new for J&R. The only difference in the "e" model is that electric elements can be used to assist the woodburning firebox, to maintain a specified set temperature. 

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Thanks for clearing that up. The J&R is indeed the one that uses electric assist; the other popular barbecue pits from Southern Pride and Ole Hickory are the ones that use gas assist (J&R pioneered the gas-assist pit, but no longer manufactures that product). The point being, all these units are utilized all over the South in good barbecue restaurants, like Three Little Pigs in Memphis and of course Mike Mills's places. There are also places like Mitchell's in Wilson, NC, where they use Kingsford charcoal plus wood in smoking whole hogs.

To reduce it to simple terms -- the only ones I really understand with respect to barbecue -- when you smoke meat you are applying two things to the meat: 1) heat, and 2) smoke. Those who use gas, electric or charcoal to assist with heat would tend to argue that the heat source as such is irrelevant -- heat is heat -- and that the important thing is your smoke source. If wood is being used for 100% of a pit's heating needs, some would argue that's a waste of wood.

[zimonsays]

the j&r is the rolls royce of pits and electric assist is the way to roll....smoke alone dose not make bbq good, you can easily over smoke meat, its temp control, dry consistant heat and then the smoke and the assisted units work best but i would Never!! use a gas assisted pit. Natural gas has no smell so they mix one in, so we can know if theres a leak. this oder can really effect the flavor of meat when expose to it for a long time... this was blue smokes first mistake....

consistance is the hardest thing to acheive for any good bbq restaurant

[brooklyncook]

I would admit to being puzzled by a lack of any wood-smoke smell in the vicinity of the restaurant. 

You don't smell it outside Blue Smoke either. Both places have smokers that are very well ventilated. If you catch the right breeze, you might be able to smell some Dino smoke somewhere in Fort Lee.

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I also would have to chalk it up to ventilation. Maybe I'm more used to it now, but initially when the restaurant opened, you'd definitely notice the smell upon entering -- and hardly at all when you're outside.

The smoke room itself doesn't even smell like the smoke unless the doors to the pits are open.

As far as the Village Voice review goes, I'm not really sure why he even bothered writing it. We've got a lot of wood stacked in the back of the house -- I haven't personally seen wood deliveries going on, but I'd suspect that, based on the way we try to be efficient, we'd have a lot delivered at once to avoid multiple deliveries that would be an inconvenience.

[bbq chef]

dry consistant heat

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I have found that ensuring there is a proper amount of moisture in the smoker is essential to getting the proper consistency. In my smoker, if to little product is loaded to be cooked, the meat gets too dry. Also if you try to load the smoker to full capacity, it tends to stay too wet and you need to adjust the temp and cook time.

I'm sure that Dino knows the way there smokers work and are just fine tuning themselves in NY. Also a smoker tends to get better as it breaks in (seasons) and a certain amount of smoke and soot accumulation makes the meat taste better. At least I know that if I take my smoker back down to clean metal, it is at least 5 or 6 smoke cycles before the meat gets back to normal.

[jhlurie]

They either use wood or they don't. Sietsema is a journalist. He could have picked up the phone and asked, and if he doubted the answer he could have confirmed with a supplier or other source.

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With this kind of shabby research and/or deliberate assasination (it's either one or the other), I'd debate the "journalist" part of that statement. I'd never had much of an opinion of the man either way before now, but geez.

As far as the Village Voice review goes, I'm not really sure why he even bothered writing it.

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One theory might be that he wrote it to be, or at least seem, clever. That's the less controvertial theory, because the other logical one would be that he wrote it that way to deliberately take the place down a peg--as if a reviewer couldn't already do that in a legitimate fashion by talking about the food alone.

I don't read the Voice regularly, so I don't really feel compelled to write a letter to the editor about this. But someone at Dinosaur should consider it. The logical thrust of the letter really would be something like: "We wouldn't have minded if Mr. Sietsema had simply reported that he didn't like the food, but we took issue with the implications he drew about the authenticity of our cooking methods based on a fairly standard bottle of BBQ sauce, and the fact that we were following NYC fire and building regulations about wood storage and ventilation. If he had questions, he could have called us and asked, instead of jumping to conclusions." Heck, if someone from Dino reads this... go ahead and use those words if your PRish folks can't do better.

[verysleepy]

As a bbq junkie, the only place that I recall having noticed that I was wafting in BBQ smoke was in Lexington, NC, where there are perhaps 15 bbq joints within a 5 block radius. Dinosaur has some mighty authentic smoked taste, and that should be the only thing that counts.

Edited December 31, 2004 by verysleepy (log)

[zimonsays]

the man wrote what he felt, harsh but... the bbq there is just alright, nothing to write home to mom about. and many of you guys (employees, ex-Syracuse peeps..)are taking it to personnel...i've been to texas, kc and the carolines and the dino reminds me of stubbs in austin, cool place to hang out, famous sauce, middle of the road food. as for reference to pearsons, come on that stuff is beginning bbq 101. all he does is put heavy smoke on the meat. he doesn't trim it first, he doesn't rub it with anything, his wood choice is questionable and they hand cut the brisket all Wrong..

[phaelon56]

I haven't sensed from the reactions posted here that people are taking issue with Sietsema criticizing the food. Rather, it was his statement, presented as fact, that they claim to use wood for their smoking but don't actually do so. The phrase "sloppy journalism" was used to describe his approach and I tend to agree.

I have no issue (as I suspect most others don't) with him not liking the food but to imply that the owners are lying and/or baiting and switching by touting real wood smoking and then just using smoke flavor in the sauce to achieve the desired effect is unfair not to mention patently ridiculous. Their pulled pork is served with a minimal amount of sauce yet the taste effects of smoking are readily evident in the meat.

I have yet to eat at the NYC location and am in no position to judge but I've read enough opinions on this thread from people's whose palates I respect to think that the NYC Dino is serving better than average 'cue. Having eaten at the Syracuse location many times over the years since they opened, usually at well spaced intervals, I can also confirm that they work tirelessly to improve their product - I've noticed a very favorable change (for my particular taste) in their ribs just over the past year alone. I still prefer the results I get on my own smoker but I'd be hard pressed to cook more than three or four racks and a shoulder butt in one long day at home.

[woodburner]

Could someone verify the number of Oyler units are in the NYC location?

Is it just the one?

Sietsema is just trying to flap his wings regarding his culinary knowledge of purist bbq pit cooking. He tries to make the reader believe that if your not using a few cords of partially seasoned hickory/oak/pecan per day it's not going to taste like real bbq.

Admittedly, large hunks of cow and pig, cooked at about 24" over a bed of burned down coals, takes on a flavor that is just about unequaled, according to many purists. Since this style of cooking adapts to a small geographic area, during a relative short climate season, the invention of the steel pit cooking comes along. After having read many articles about John Stage, cooking over hot coals using a split 55-gallon drum is how he got his start in the early 80's, cooking at biker events. So it's my belief that John, knows what purist bbq taste likes.

Trying to duplicate that exact taste and flavor of purist style bbq in a state of the art steel pit is still not a easy task, as many may think.

Stage has his heart and soul into the Dinosaur name. To think he is cutting anything or anybody short in what he feels is his best shot at purist bbq replication is a huge mistake on Sietsema's part.

woodburner

[Jason Perlow]

Could someone verify the number of Oyler units are in the NYC location?

Is it just the one?

3 Oyler Units, totalling 2400 pounds of smoking capacity.

[woodburner]

Could someone verify the number of Oyler units are in the NYC location?

Is it just the one?

3 Oyler Units, totalling 2400 pounds of smoking capacity.

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Good.

I suspect they are possibly cooking briskets and butts in one unit, ribs in one other unit, and chicken in the third. My suspicions are based on my cooking temperatures.

I also suspect the best time to consume the smoked brisket would be lunch time. In or around that time frame one would be less likely to obtain anything on the dry side . Once again, a guess but calculated.

woodburner

[Jason Perlow]

Abigail Doyle, GM of Dinosaur Barbecue in NYC asked me to pass on these words:

Yeah, we read the Voice review yesterday on our day off which really put a damper on our spirits needless to say.  I don't know what his deal is, and I wish he had called or even asked for a tour - we gladly would have given it to him.  I really appreciate all of the support egullet has given us and want to thank everyone.  The ppl that have been posting are exactly right - if someone doesn't like our food we understand and take no umbrage to that - ppl have every right to their tastes and it is a very subjective issue.  What he wrote regarding the wood use and smoker technique is simply untrue and therein lies the frustration.  We get our wood delivery once a month from the same folks we use in Syracuse and Rochester - Shute Landscaping.  That's why there's wood in the restaurant - aesthetically pleasing but also, we run out of space to put it.  And yes, if you could smell smoke anywhere we would not be allowed to run our restaurant.  There are architectural offices above us, and boy do they really not want to smell any smoke.  So we're a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't.

A couple of other issues to set straight:

We DO take reservations for parties of six and more and will continue to do so

We use the bar area for cocktailing and as a "no wait" area.  This has worked in our favor and against us as far as ppl waiting because a lot of times ppl will get their name on the list, then sit in the bar area to eat and not let us know, so our wait times have been a bit cockamamey.  We have to refine a few things now that the holidays are over and we can regroup (hopefully!) a bit.

The sauce we use on our food is the exact same stuff that's bottled and sold in stores - not sure how to attribute some liking it in the restaurant but not in the bottle.

All in all we've been blown away at how busy we've been - we were hoping for a 1/4 of the business we've been getting so we feel very fortunate to be accepted by the community and the city in general.  The main reason we wanted to come to NYC is because this is the greatest city in the world and we love it as a personal lifestyle choice.  Simple as that.  To be getting the praise we HAVE gotten is a huge bonus and we are so grateful to have ppl like you out there who appreciate us and support us.  Hopefully the Voice review won't squash the good momentum we do have.  We've all been working, like, a hundred hours a week since August so it did bring us down a bit, but all we can do is keep plugging along and feeding ppl the best that we can.

[woodburner]

that surely is a from the heart felt response, thanks for sending that on, Jason.

I'm totally taken back with the fact they use the same wood supplier for all three locations. While it makes great business sense, from the Dinosaur end, Shute Landscaping, must have swallowed somewhat hard, when they were approached to send a truck loaded with cordwood into Harlem.

woodburner

[mtkr]

that surely is a from the heart felt response, thanks for sending that on, Jason.

I'm totally taken back with the fact they use the same wood supplier for all three locations. While it makes great business sense, from the Dinosaur end, Shute Landscaping, must have swallowed somewhat hard, when they were approached to send a truck loaded with cordwood into Harlem.

woodburner

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Not sure I'm geting your point. Is is just that its quite a distance from the upstate locations?

Mary

[jhlurie]

that surely is a from the heart felt response, thanks for sending that on, Jason.

I'm totally taken back with the fact they use the same wood supplier for all three locations. While it makes great business sense, from the Dinosaur end, Shute Landscaping, must have swallowed somewhat hard, when they were approached to send a truck loaded with cordwood into Harlem.

woodburner

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Not sure I'm geting your point. Is is just that its quite a distance from the upstate locations?

Mary

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It's about 260 miles. But I also think he was playing around a bit about people's general perceptions about Harlem.