Do you need space in restaurants

[Andy Lynes]

My wife and I enjoyed a wonderful meal at The Orrery very recently. The food is really excellent, service is very caring and professional, they have a lovely bar and the dining room is very pretty (more detailed review soon). BUT. The tables are really, really close together. In fact, we were given one half of what I am sure is used as a table for 4. There was no space between the tables at all and just a cylindrical cushion between my wife and the smoking businessman next to her. We asked to move tables during the meal to get away from the smell of the smoke which was wafting over whilst we were eating, and were obliged with a little, but not too much fuss.

On booking the table a number of weeks in advance I requested a round one by the windows which provide some privacy and space. I was told that one could not be guaranteed, which I quite understood. The restaurant must keep its best tables for its regular or VIP guests. That's the reality of the situation and good business practice. However, should not all the tables in the restaurant be at the very least acceptable? And we are not talking about a low cost, high volume operation here. The Orrey has a Michelin star and charges around £50.00 a head for food.

Without question, I now officially have a thing about the spacing of tables in restaurants. I think in general they are too close to afford a relaxing and enjoyable night out. There are obviously exceptions to this rule, but they tend to be at the very highest level.

Do others share this view, and where can you get some space without selling your first born for the privilege?

[John Whiting]

I couldn't agree more, especially in restaurants which allow smoking. My wife and I feel so strongly about it that, whenever the schedule permits, we always book in the evening for opening time. (That's why most of the interior shots on my website are of empty spaces.)

The problem is, rent per square meter in desirable locations has gone through the roof, and so restaurateurs cram as many people as possible into the space. Kitchens are getting smaller too, with recipes being adapted to those which require a minimum of preparation and therefore a minimum of staff. How many restaurants, except those in enormous hotels, can afford staffing levels like Chez Panisse, which has about 120 on the payroll?!

In other words, in our new minimalist world we are compressed in space, time (multiple servings per night) and preparation. In Paris I sometimes go deliberately to unspectacular but competant old bistros that no one is making a fuss about, just to enjoy the relaxation and the ability to stretch without inadvertently assaulting a stranger.

[macrosan]

Absolutely agreed. This has been a big issue for me for years, both because of the smoking problem, and also because of the comfort and privacy issue.

My wife detests the smell of smoke, and will not eat in a restaurant that doesn't have a no-smoking section. We recently went to Cyprus where there is no such thing as a no-smoking section, and would only eat outdoors. We will never go to Cyprus again. Similarly, we have always had a problem eating in France where even those restaurants with alleged no-smoking areas are just paying the concept lip service. Last year we ate in a restaurant in Le Touquet and were seated in the no-smoking area. We finished our hors d'oeuvres and the guy at the next table lit a cigarette. I asked him to put it out and he shrugged. I asked the waiter to ask him, and the waiter shrugged. We left the restaurant, I told the maitre d' that I wasn't going to pay for the food we'd had and he shrugged. Very Gallic  

The issue of comfort and privacy is a more common one in the UK than the smoking issue. I will not go back to any restaurant (of any class) where I felt uncomfortable. For example, I will only go to Rules in London if they guarantee an alcove table (sometimes they will, sometimes they won't). One of the things I really liked about Petrus and Foliage was the spacious setting of the tables.

Restaurants set their prices commercially to achieve a profit based on their costs, and in expectation of certain revenue. They can set a higher price and have less tables, or a lower price and more tables, then they let the customers decide whether or not they like the result. That is in no way different from the quality of ingredients, or the staff ratio, or any of the other elements that go to make up the style and quality of a restaurant. I'm the customer, I'll make my choice, and if the restaurant gets the mix wrong it'll go out of business.

What I object to is the 'creeping cramp' syndrome where a restaurant little by little squeezes up its tables in the hope that customers won't notice. That happened in a local Italian restaurant I frequent. They used to have about 15 tables for four, and a couple of months ago we went there and I immediately noticed that next to three of those tables they had added a table for two, about 12 inches apart. They asked us to sit at one of those tables, I refused, and we went over the road to another Italian restaurant which is now our new 'regular'place.

[cabrales]

Space is one of the things I am not particularly worried about, provided that it is not so limited that dining room team members are "brushing" up against me more than once or twice during a meal. Sometimes space allocation affects noise level and interaction with other diners. However, while I dislike background music, normal or even above-average chit-chat from adjacent tables is not particularly burdensome on me.

I don't mind being seated at a "row" of tables side by side, so long as there are very narrow gaps in between (even ones through which I could not pass without pulling a table out). I don't mind being seated next to "serving stations" where food for other diners might be brought or where cutlery might be kept. In fact, sometimes that offers more of an opportunity to see the dining room team in action.  

On the arguably separate topic of positioning of the table I receive within a restaurant, I generally find that I tend to be seated at desirable tables even when I am not familiar with a restaurant (which is the bulk of the time).  I know Liza and others have different views on this, but I believe dressing very well and polite confidence tend to foster that outcome.  ;)

[tommy]

i certainly understand the space restrictions that a restaurant comes up against in cities such as new york.  with that in mind, i'm not horribly offended by "cramped quarters".  however, if the table next to me has to move a considerable distance for me to get up to use the restroom, my anxiety level shoots way up.  i'm not a small fellow, but i am by no means tipping the scales size-wise.  i can't imagine how some people fit in airplane seats comfortably, let alone navigating a cramped restaurant with any ease.

[Rachel Perlow]

i can't imagine how some people fit in airplane seats comfortably, let alone navigating a cramped restaurant with any ease.

As part of a couple of size, I can tell you a few of my tricks for getting more room. First, with airplanes. When I book tickets, if it is possible I reserve an aisle and a window seat (of three across seating). We always try to arrive on time, if not early, at the gate. Then I check with the gate personel as to the crowdedness of the flight, explaining (as politely and smilingly as possible) that since we are both large people it would benefit both the airline and the person assigned in between us if they re-assign that person so they aren't cramped. That is, if there is even someone between us by the time of the flight (vacant middle seats in between two reserved seats are the last to be assigned). If it is a plane with two across seating, we just cuddle together! :) Very rarely do we actually have to deal with a person in between us at the beginning of a flight, but somehow there is always a more comfortable place to move the unfortunately smooshed person by the time the plane leaves the gate. Facing this unembarassingly and with good humor helps the process, especially if there is someone stuck in the middle at the beginning of the flight. Rarely is anyone rude about it, and never has anyone refused to move from in between us, even for another middle seat.

As for restaurants, we have left places if the entire restaurant is spaced so tightly that there is no way for us to be comfortable. Usually before or as you are being seated is the best time to ask for a different table. If the booths looked cramped, I will tell the host(ess) we prefer a regular table. As you are being led to a table that appears unsuitable, I will say, "I think we would be more comfortable at that table," if I spy something more appropriate. Unless the place is completely booked, they are usually accomodating, even sitting us at the larger square 4-tops rather than the half-sized tables for two.

[SamanthaF]

Andy - What do you think of the table spacing at Chez Bruce?

[Andy Lynes]

We have been lucky to get either the table opposite the door on the back wall near to the waiters station which is the last one before the tables by the windows (do you know the one I mean?) or a table actually by the windows. Both positions are really nice with a fair bit a space around and away from the really busy traffic in the room.

The last time I went for an FT lunch by myself I had the table right next to the door into the kitchen which has a big partition type thing by it. This is at the end of a row of tables for two which are very close to each other. As I was by myself and the couple next to me were not smoking or shouting at eachother, I was quite happy. If I had been there for dinner with Gill (my wife) I might not have been quite so thrilled.

Generally speaking, Chez Bruce is a nice even rectangle of a room with not many actively "bad" tables, but I think they could lose a few without it really hurting them and it improving comfort for their customers.

[SamanthaF]

Whenever Scott and I have eaten there, we have always been in the back left hand corner, so although we have a wall one side of us, the next table is very close - I worry for the little pot plant!

However, I feel that taking everything into consideration such as the quality of the food and the price, the 'cosyness' is not such a sacrifice ;)

[Scottf]

In fairness to Chez Bruce (and we haven't been since the refurb) it isn't a particularly large dining room.  The odd table is going to be slightly cramped.

I can accept that in smaller restaurants space isn't at the top of the list for a restauranteur.  However at The Capital, which has probably the smallest dining room I frequent, the tables are large, and particularly spacious from other diners.  That does come at a price though, in the region of £53p.h for food at dinner.

I find it less acceptable when large restaurants cram tables as it isn't necessary, except to bolster profits.  Examples being Mirabelle and Chapter One.

[Ruby]

In New York City (especially Manhattan) apartments are so small and kitchens so cramped to start with that I don't want to be cramped further when eating out. Additionally, I have claustrophobia and this is really a problem when I have to take a crowded elevator, bus or subway. I avoid parades and generally tight spaces with people.

If I see I'm being led to a very tightly packed area in a restaurant, I'll tell the host(ess) I have claustrophobia. Usually we'll get moved somewhere else. If the whole restaurant is seating people like wall-to-wall sardines, I won't stay. If I really want to dine at a popular/hot new restaurant for the first time, I'll usually go directly there and ask to see the room and ask the maitre'd what table they recommend for a person who's claustro. This helps.

I do understand that rent is high in New York and major cities in the States and Europe but restaurants should also understand that customers like comfort. Also, the more tightly packed in you are, the more you have to deal with the servers as they bring food to the other tables. It's too intrusive. Some people don't mind; some do. I know some people who are totally oblivious to their surroundings and others who don't want to hear the sound of someone's cell phone.

As for smoking, that's a total no-no. I make sure I'm not seated near a bar or cocktail area because even in a no-smoking restaurant, the smoke wafts your way.

[Wilfrid]

We're just getting more accustomed to being overcrowded, aren't we?  Now I think of it, I have eaten in many top end restaurants, where it's a real squeeze to get out of a banquette seat without moving tables.  From memory: Cello, La Caravelle, Picholine, Jo Jo - tell me if I'm wrong.  I usualy find I am separated from the adjacent party on a banquette only by a fancy shopping bag.   Les Halles on Park is almost intolerable, but I still tolerate it.

My big problem with tables close together is that adjoining parties are forever engaging me in conversation, which is almost always unwelcome.  If anyone's got any ideas how to stop that...

[Andy Lynes]

I just give them my best Travis Bickle "Are you talking to me", then produce the 45 I have strapped to my arm under my jacket in a complicated moving bracket type thing and shoot them. Seems to work.

[Wilfrid]

I have occasionally pretended that I understand absolutely no English.  But then I have to whisper to the waiter for the rest of the evening.

[jhlurie]

And the effect of the close quarters is 1000x worse if you are backed up against "deadly small screaming child" or "colicky baby".  :D

But what I hate even more than other tables being close to me are the chairs at MY table being too close together.  I like my friends... but not enough to be half sitting in front of one of THEIR food items.

I'm like an old cowboy in that I prefer my back against the wall... so sometimes I DO deliberately accept less personal space.  In trade this DOES subject you much less to the chatter from neighboring tables and the ever-annoying waiter's elbow in your soup whilst pouring water for the table.

[Liza]

I know Liza and others have different views on this, but I believe dressing very well and polite confidence tend to foster that outcome.

Cabrales, I do not disagree with you. I merely find that it is often not enough that I dress well and foster an air of polite confidence. No matter that I am well-groomed, dressed (Steve Klc can weigh in here and confirm or deny!), and polite, I still often get lousy service because I look young. There can be no other explanation for it. I don't like to tell people where I work, thereby resorting to  "Don't you know who am I" in order to be treated like a valued customer.

[Wilfrid]

Stop fishing, Liza, we've all said how young you look.  I just thought I would trade in decent service at restaurants in exchange for looking ten years younger.  Then, I thought, no don't be crazy.   ;)

[Liza]

And you'd think I look like a teenager from all this! Next thing you know, I'll start reporting that managers are offering me booster seats!

Back to the topic of the thread, yes, please, I need room. We walked out of Les Halles when we saw the tight seating arrangements. In merchandising, there is a "butt brush" theory: people feel most comfortable shopping when there is enough room to allow them to peruse the merchandise without their butts brushing other people or things.

[jhlurie]

In merchandising, there is a "butt brush" theory: people feel most comfortable shopping when there is enough room to allow them to peruse the merchandise without their butts brushing other people or things.

And I thought it was a "three foot" rule.

And Wilfrid is right... stop fishing for compliments. ;)  It's not that we don't want to give, we don't want to make your hubby unduly jealous.  :)

[tommy]

in general, there is something to be said for butt brushing.  maybe not on my bread, but in general.  you know.

[Liza]

So why am I picturing a hairbrush? OK,  I'm grossing myself out again.

[jhlurie]

I merely find that it is often not enough that I dress well and foster an air of polite confidence.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever tested this out in an organized fashion.  If a series of older looking people dressed sloppily were compared against a group of younger looking people in "young" clothes, who would get better service?

It reminds me of an electronics store I used to stop at in Greenwich Village.  I got used to being ignored in Jeans, until the day I went in while wearing an expensive suit. I got "sirred" left and right.  This was back when I had a full head of hair, and did indeed look young--suit or no suit.

Then again, in that case it was a case of them guessing that I had money to spend--since plenty of people "browse" in that type of store without any intention of buying.  By definition most people who eat at restaurants enter with the money they need to spend and every intention of spending it.  So in that case I can only chalk up a difference in behavior to whether or not they think you can afford to make a return visit.

[Wilfrid]

One way to get enough space, to the extent there's any available, is to have a heavily pregnant woman as your dining companion.  My Beloved and I used to get moved around until we were I the best possible spot when she was tipping 200lbs.

[jhlurie]

Oh... wait.  I'll grab the "gross" crown from Liza.  The best way to ensure proper space in a restaurant is...

(...drum roll...)

flatulance.

thank kew.  thank kew.

(bowing out)

[Ruby]

Oh... wait.  I'll grab the "gross" crown from Liza.  The best way to ensure proper space in a restaurant is...

(...drum roll...)

flatulance.

Um, before or After the meal?  :p