Is there a great bagel in Texas?

[Richard Kilgore]

Jason threw down the gauntlet in another thread. Is there not a single bagel in Texas worth comparing to its New York cousin? Not in Dallas? Not in Austin? Not in Houston? Not in Maybank? Not anywhere?

If so, why so? What is it about bagel making that it is not done to high standards in Texas? Is it our water, our oil, our air? Will we simply and gladly accept sub-standard bagels? Does no one care?

[Jason Perlow]

Requires an abundance of little old Jewish guys who know how to make them properly, mostly. Though I've seen Italians (who were students of the little old Jewish guys who ended up buying out their bakeries when they retire) do a very good job as well.

[Fat Guy]

Is it our water, our oil, our air? Will we simply and gladly accept sub-standard bagels?

I believe it is the latter, and probably the single biggest problem is that most people outside of NY and CA suffer from extreme fear of crust. I've told the story before of visiting a Manhattan Bagels franchise in Raleigh, NC, with Varmint a few years back. Manhattan Bagels ships high-quality frozen dough (produced in New Jersey) to its franchises. This dough has the potential to make very good bagels. But the owner of the store told us repeatedly that he is forced by consumer preference to undercook the bagels so they have barely any crust and little or no exterior color. The bagels he was selling to the public were mediocre, because that's what the public demanded. But he left a batch in the oven for us a little longer, until it got nice and brown, and those bagels were damn good. Go to one of the Manhattan Bagels locations in Texas, if you live near one, at a time of day when they're actively baking, and ask them to leave a few plain bagels in the oven until they're really dark and crusty. Not charred, just a deep, rich caramel-brown. Eat those and tell me there aren't good bagels in Texas. There are probably plenty of good bagels all over the place, but if they're mostly subject to infanticide nobody will ever get to taste their potential.

Even in New York, the bagels have been getting fluffier and softer over time. There are very few bagel bakeries remaining where you'll get an actual ache in your jaw muscles from eating a bagel.

Making bagels isn't rocket science. Any significant corporation with a budget to do a little research should easily be able to overcome local variations in flour or water (if water is even a factor, and I'm hardly convinced it is) in order to create a top-notch bagel, dough can always be manufactured centrally and shipped, and any idiot can be trained to do the basic shaping, proofing, and baking. But why bother, when people would buy fewer of them than they currently buy of the fluffy, crappy supermarket bagels that are the norm?

[fifi]

There was a bakery in Houston called "Four Brothers" (Five Brothers? I dunno) that made fabulous bagels. After FG's description it seems they hit the mark. They were located somewhere off of Stella Link and Braeswood. I don't know if they are still there. I will have to look them up. That area of town has a big Jewish population and there may be some promising bakeries there.

[Fat Guy]

The meta-issues surrounding Jews and bagels are explored in more detail by Lenny Bruce:

Jewish and Goyish - Lenny Bruce

'Dig: I'm Jewish. Count Basie's Jewish. Ray Charles is Jewish. Eddie Cantor's goyish. B'nai Brith is goyish; Hadassah, Jewish.

If you live in New York or any other big city, you are Jewish. It doesn't matter even if you're Catholic; if you live in New York, you're Jewish. If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be goyish even if you're Jewish.

Kool-Aid is goyish. Evaporated milk is goyish even if the Jews invented it. Chocolate is Jewish and fudge is goyish. Fruit salad is Jewish. Lime jello is goyish. Lime soda is very goyish.

All Drake's Cakes are goyish. Pumpernickel is Jewish and, as you know, white bread is very goyish. Instant potatoes, goyish. Black cherry soda's very Jewish, macaroons are very Jewish.

Negroes are all Jews. Italians are all Jews. Irishmen who have rejected their religion are Jews. Mouths are very Jewish. And bosoms. Baton-twirling is very goyish.

Underwear is definitely goyish. Balls are goyish. Titties are Jewish.

Celebrate is a goyish word. Observe is a Jewish word. Mr. and Mrs. Walsh are celebrating Christmas with Major Thomas Moreland USAF (ret.), while Mr. and Mrs. Bromberg observed Hanukkah with Goldie and Arthur Schindler from Kiamesha, New York.

[Raynickben]

I left Dallas a year ago (but I'm moving back next month) and the best bagels I could find were at Bagelstein's in Plano. I may have to re-evaluate when I get back but they were very acceptable to my Jewish in-laws and my own NJ bred tastebuds.

[jess mebane]

There was a bakery in Houston called "Four Brothers" (Five Brothers? I dunno) that made fabulous bagels.

omigod, those guys were the shizzle! You SOOOoooo have to find out if they're still around, Fifizzle.....

[Jaymes]

We have a new bagel shop in Austin. Way north Austin. Okay, Cedar Park.

It's called the Bagel Works. It's owned and run by two New Yorkers that moved here and decided they couldn't get a decent bagel, so they went into the biz.

Our own egullet New York Texan (named, appropriately enough, NewYorkTexan) visited it recently and pronounced it the best bagel he's had since he got here. Said it was "acceptable," although added that it would be nothing remarkable if one were actually IN New York.

So there you go.

Right up here in little ol' Cedar Park, Texas, someone is turning out damn adequate bagels -- "for Texas," I'm sure NYT would hastily point out.

But on another point, I suspect it will always be more difficult to achieve and sustain high quality bagelhood when one is located in a more rural setting than in the high density of New York and other east coast urban settings.

Freshness is a key factor. And when you've got customers by the scores walking through your door every hour, it's much easier to keep pumping out the fresh bagels, than it is if you have to make them and let them set on shelves all day.

[KAPDADDY]

Three Brothers Bakery is still here and still putting out excellent bagels.

[fifi]

thanks KAPDADDY. At least now we know how many brothers there are.

[Richard Kilgore]

Steven - thanks for the Lenny Bruce and the tip on asking them to bake it a little longer. Bagelsteins here in Dallas makes pretty good bagels, so I'll ask. Grocery store bagels are terrible, but most, if not all, grocery store baked goods here are pretty miserable, with the exception of CM and WF. I used to get bagels flown in from New York twice a week when I lived in Austin, but that's not practical. Sorry to hear that they are getting soft and fluffy everywhere.

[fitz]

It's called the Bagel Works... the best bagel he's had since he got here.  Said it was "acceptable," although added that it would be nothing remarkable if one were actually IN New York.

Yup, that's exactly what Luggage (a Queens native) and I (a Newark, NJ native) said when we went there. Just fine, and a msot welcome addition to Austin, but wouldn't be a standout in NY.

I actually got desperate enough last fall to start making them myself, but we couldn't eat enough to make it worth the trouble...

[Luggage386]

The best Texas bagelry I've been to is Hoot's Bagels, in, believe it or not, Lubbock (which I had occasion to visit a month ago in connection with Buddy Holly-related festivities). It was founded in 1995 by a couple with the actual surname of Hoot (they retired in 2001 and sold the business, which has since changed hands again). The quality of the bagels themselves is about on a par with Bagel Works in Austin (i.e. unremarkable for NY), but Hoot's gets major points for its friendly, real-bagel-shop atmosphere (there are a few tables and stools for sit-down eating) and, especially, the imaginative offerings, which include a peanut butter bagel; a Fiesta bagel (corn-based, with chipotles, cilantro and olives), roasted garlic sourdough; the Amigo, with jalapeno and salsa mixed in; chipotle chive -- you get the idea. Some of the conceptions aren't for purists, to say the least (i.e. the Aloha bagel, which contains pina colada, pineapple and coconut!), but on the whole, they work. Hoot’s is a better bagel place than you’d find anywhere in Austin, and what does that say? (The line on a Saturday morning I visited was out the door, another authentic NYC touch.)

Hoot's is in the upscale Kingsgate Center at Quaker and 82nd (the south end of town), home to Banana Republic, Ann Taylor, a Bath & Body Works, a day spa and a Gourmet Pantry. Who knew?

The website's at www.hootsbagels.com.

[Jaymes]

Had a wonderful lunch today at Bagel Works up in Cedar Park, and want to again sing the praises of this place.

My friend and I went and we had the dried tomato bagels with dried tomato cream cheese and lox and "the works." Also, an absolutely delicious soup -- a smooth, sublime and creamy chicken jalapeno.

All of you that are hungering for good bagels here in Texas should at least give this place a shot.

[lovebenton0]

Jason threw down the gauntlet in another thread. Is there not a single bagel in Texas worth comparing to its New York cousin? Not in Dallas? Not in Austin? Not in Houston? Not in Maybank? Not anywhere?

If so, why so? What is it about bagel making that it is not done to high standards in Texas? Is it our water, our oil, our air? Will we simply and gladly accept sub-standard bagels? Does no one care?

I don't know what happened to the Bagel Factory downtown Austin. Used to be near the old Arts Warehouse (4th & San Antonio); I'd slip out every Saturday at noon and grab a bagful.

I don't think the grocery bakeries, or maybe any bakeries here, really do the lye dip. That makes all the difference. It tightens the outside of the dough so you get the crust you deserve. When the bagel is dipped, it can't fluff up too much. And the bigger is better bagel concept is making most quasi bagels taste like kaiser rolls with a hole. I like kaiser rolls, but not when I want a bagel. We'll have to try the Cedar Park Bagel Works.

[NewYorkTexan]

Considering that at one time there was a very large established Jewish population in Texas, especially Dallas, one would have hoped you could still find decent bagels. In the early 1900s almost 25% of the Dallas population was Jewish and Galveston was the second largest immigration destination for eastern European Jews, second only to Ellis Island.

Manny Hattans Deli in Austin, by the Arboretum, sells H&H bagels. They buy them in bulk frozen and finish baking them to order. At 60 cents per bagel, I think they are one of the better values in town.

[j-lu]

This is my first-ever post! I own The Bagel Works and wanted thank Jaymes for coming by, checking us out and helping spread the word. I'm originally from the City and grew up mostly in Jersey. I was forewarned by the former owner of a (now nearly defunct) local bagel chain that "purist" NY bagels wouldn't fly here because the Texan taste finds them "too hard". We strive to make the best bagel in Texas while not straying too far from the NY fray. We also strive to stay in business! We recently added kaiser rolls (hand made) and croissants to satisfy the local soft bread palate! Our bagel has a traditional NY taste and a crust with a life of its own. Certain flavors have a more traditional density while others (read, "Blueberry, et. al.") are slightly more puffy. We also feature a variety of breakfast and lunch items including one homemade soup daily. We fly lox in from Brooklyn and can order any kind of smoked fish, whitefish salad, etc. upon request. We also make chopped liver to order -- approved by my mom on a recent visit. We have a growing group of NY- and Chicago-area regulars which is heartening. Though Cedar Park is a tad out of hand for Austin, I wanted to invite everyone (Mon-Sat 6:30-3, Sun 7:30-2). Mention e-gullet and you'll get 50 cents off. We're on 1431, just east of 183 in The Railyard shopping center.

Jennifer

[fifi]

Welcome to eGullet, Jennifer. Your first post and it is easy to see I will be looking forward to more.

You have already contributed some very interesting information. I never thought about "local preferrence" before when it comes to a singular food like a bagel. Do your traditional density bagels sell less? Are your customers getting exposed to them and learning to like them? I seem to remember that the bagels from Three Brothers here in Houston are more traditional but I haven't been there in a long time so that may have changed. They are also located in what was at one time a part of town that had a large Jewish population but I think that has changed, too. I wonder if their bagels changed?

The Bagel Works sounds really interesting. Jaymes is a good bloodhound.

[NewYorkTexan]

Welcome Jennifer.

Jaymes and everyone else’s endorsement was enough justification to drive up to Cedar Park, but with your post puts the motivation to visit Bagel Works over the top!

Key question------do you make Salt bagels? I have not found a good salt bagel in Texas and they do not travel well enough to have shipped from NYC.

[fifi]

Uh... What is a salt bagel? (I am a Texan. I have to ask. )

Now that we have Jennifer on board...

What is the difference in preparation between a traditional bagel and the softer kind?

[elyse]

Plain bagel dipped in salt.

Just for the record, bagels with tomatoes, blueberries, strawberries, chocolate chips or any other such maleficence, is no bagel at all.

[NewYorkTexan]

Just for the record, bagels with tomatoes, blueberries, strawberries, chocolate chips or any other such maleficence, is no bagel at all.

THANK YOU!

I will puke if I see one more pesto/assagio cheese/pine nut donut shaped roll masquerading as a bagel.

[elyse]

I just puked reading that.

[Richard Kilgore]

Welcome, Jennifer and thanks for the post. I'll come by for a REAL bagel next time I am in Austin. I also eschew, rather than chew, soft bagels and those other than plain, salt, and garlic.

And thanks, Jaymes, for sniffing this out.

[j-lu]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! Beside my day job I also adore eating good food, so I'm really looking forward to participating in the forum! My kinda folks! Some answers:

Yes, there are regional adjustments for bagels. (The real puffy ones are known as "West Coast" or "California" Bagels in the trade). Since we started out in March, I've met a lot of people who thought bagels were exclusively breakfast food and should be consumed with coffee -- like a donut. This is why, at first, the best selling flavors were plain and all the "tutti fruities". Over the course of the months, we've made a point of turning customers on to other flavors (I often choose the 13th bagel for customers, since I pay for them, after all!). I do think customers are learning to appreciate the more traditional flavors -- for a few months running, the second best selling flavor has been Everything. What a contrast to Cranberry Walnut! We also try to show that bagels make great lunch as well. PS. we do make Salt bagels -- pressed into kosher salt before proofing and baking. If you need more than 1/2 dozen, or want them right out of the oven, call ahead of time.

Almost no one boils bagels any more. One second too short or long in the water means BAD bagels. It's also messy and dangerous, so beside the difficulty of finding bakers willing to do the work, you can't get workman's comp insurance. We, like many others, use a steam-injection oven. Mine was manufactured in Paramus, NJ and my Manhattan-dwelling sales rep flew down to fire it up, season it and teach us how to use it. These ovens can be set to provide a variety of finishes to bagels. The main differences between puffy and dense bagels are: the quantity of yeast in the dough, the proofing time (rising) and oven adjustment. Another interesting thing was the hardness of the water at our location, which tended to weigh all the doughs down. The first batches were like lead and all the recipes needed to be tweaked! The water also dulls the sheen a bit -- like it does to dishes.

Looking forward to meeting some of you in the near future!