The Great Pastrami & Smoked Meat Experiment

[wesza]

And if we are going to taste pastrami with mustard, my favorite is Dijon from William Sonoma. 

Chef Fowke: The "Dijon", type Mustards are rarely ever served with Pastrami. The main reason is that in the better places serving "Pastrami Sandwiches", the preferred Mustard Codiment is a Brown Mustard Seed, NYC Deli Type Mustard. The more traditional reason is the Dijon Mustards aren't Kosher Certified, due to the Wine Content not being Kosher. There may be some types of Dijon, that are in fact prepared especially for Kosher Consumption but i'm not aware of any being sold.

Irwin, kosher dijon is available. I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it's imported from France. But dijon has no business on a pastrami sandwich. Only grainy brown will do.

As an aside, next week is Kosherfest, which is the big kosher food show at the Javits Center in NY. It's amazing how many products are available these days. I plan on attending and eating my way through.

It may not be 'kosher' but I love to eat pastrami with Dijon...call me crazy.

Chef Fowke: Your just slightly eccentric, what I consider crazy, is my friend who loves his Pastrami with Peanut Butter, or my other friend whom will only eat Pastrami. with Chopped Liver and Onions or another guy who ordered his Pastrami Sandwich with Liverwurst.

The most important thing is, once you've ordered it, it becomes YOUR Pastrami. Your entitled to enjoy it any way you wish.

But why do I shutter, when considering that for some reason both Pastrami or Corned Beef are commonly served with Mayo, Lettuce and Tomatoes almost anywhere in Seattle, even the Kosher Places. Very often right from the refrigerator. When I was at Roxy's that what a customer ordered.

I often wonder, why the most popular supermarket, Pastrami's are made from Top Round ? I've tried it, but it doesn't taste like Pastrami. It seems that most ethinic foods are evolving into generics.

Are our Deli Meats, becoming like Bagels. Once they invented a machine to form and bake them, they prolifergated everywhere you turned. Now they've become Supermarket staples. In every concievable variation.

There are more variations of miscellaneous Turkey Products, {Few Taste Like Turkey] that it seems inconsievable to me that there'd be customers for. but it keeps growing.

I've even seen a packed Italian Style Pastrami, together with Italian Style Roast Beef and Italian Style Corned Beef in a Deli Counter.

Enjoy your Williams Sonoma Dijion Mustard, i'm going to try some on my Pastrami Sandwich with Swedish Meatballs.

Irwin

[hobby chef]

Recipe for Dry Curing Brisket/Plate into Pastrami.

With a mortar and pestle (or a coffee grinder) grind the following to a course texture:

1. 3lbs course kosher salt

2. 2lbs peppercorns

3. ½lbs sugar

4. ½lbs coriander seeds

5. 3 Tbs whole cloves

6. 10 whole bay laurel leaves

7. 2 Tbs saltpeter

Rub a 7lbs plate with raw garlic then coat with salt mixture. Let sit, covered, in the cooler for three days. Turn it over every 12 hours.

Rinse the meat under cold running water for 5 minutes and remove all the surface salt mixture. Let it soak in fresh water (change the water every half hour) for 3 hours.

Coat the meat with two parts cracked black peppercorns and one part cracked coriander seeds. Press the mixture into the meat. Weight it down and place in the cooler for eight hours.

Smoke (cherrywood) over medium-low heat for eight hours or until the internal temperature reaches 165f. Immediately weight the meat down and let cool for 24hours in the cooler.

Steam the meat for three hours. Immediately weight the meat and let it cool for 24 hours in the cooler.

Re-heat the meat in the steamer for half an hour. Slice and serve.

This recipe rules!

I used to live on Ludlow Street (same as Katz) before moving out to San Francisco in 1998 (now Berkeley). Like pizza, they don't know what pastrami is out here on the west coast. Even the few jewish delis that are scattered around are clueless on the subject. So, I was resigned to having to do it myself and I ran across this excellent thread while I was doing my research. Thank you for trailblazing.

The final product which I sampled last night is the best I've had outside of Manhattan. I found it to be spicier (probably due to the high grade peppercorns i used in the crust) and leaner (due to using brisket), but it had all of the qualities which i associate with "real" pastrami.

My comments:

6+ lbs of dry cure seemed like way too much, so I halved your recipe. This amount was sufficient to cure the 5.6# brisket I bought at Andronicos, but I wouldn't cut it down any further than that.

Bulk pepper and corriander 2.29/lb were obtained at a local Middle-eastern grocery.

I was eventually able to obtain saltpeter at a non-big-box pharmacy, but they had to order it, and I had to tell them it was potassium nitrate. Then they asked if i was making a bomb. :) Well, yes - this pastrami is the bomb! The label is marked with the ominous phrase "For technical use only." Let's hope I know what I'm doing.

A coffee grinder is a must with this amount of spice. I cannot imagine getting through it all with a mortar & pestle.

I did all of the refrigerator steps in a roasting pan, but I will try to find the giant size ziploc bags I've read about to keep the mess down for the next run.

Weighting was achieved with a toaster oven pan and 6 - 28oz cans of tomato sauce - about 11#.

For the next batch I will be dilligent and obtain navel plate.

I will also re-rub with garlic prior to doing the final spice coat, cut back slightly on the cloves, and add a touch of sugar to the rub to bring out the deep black color I'm used to during smoking.

2oz corriander, 4oz of peppercorns yielded an over-abundance of spice crust. (As an aside, corriander is much less dense than pepper, so doing ratios by weight would be much different than doing them by volume.) I will use the surplus on the next batch, but half the amount I prepared would have been sufficient.

I smoked with hickory since that's what I had on hand. My smoker is a standard Weber kettle with an offset fire, so I rotated the meat once an hour and hit 165° at 6 hours. As soon as I pulled it off the grill, I knew I had pastrami. The smell was incredible. Of course, the 3 hours of steaming had the whole kitchen smelling like Katz. Tomorrow afternoon I have friends coming over to help me dispose of the remainder. Some of them are pastrami virgins, so I don't know whether they'll appreciate what they're getting, but I don't expect to have any leftovers!

Thanks again-

Todd Salerno

[col klink]

Welcome hobby chef!

Chef Fowke, is the garlic step necessary? Have you done briskets with and without that first step of rubbing the garlic? I'm just wondering if you'd be able to taste the difference after salting, spicing, smoking and steaming.

[Chef Fowke]

Welcome hobby chef!

Chef Fowke, is the garlic step necessary? Have you done briskets with and without that first step of rubbing the garlic? I'm just wondering if you'd be able to taste the difference after salting, spicing, smoking and steaming.

Wow! I have worked really hard the last few months (vacation in San Fran, LA, Napa, Las Vegas).....

The subtle flavour the garlic lends to the meat is intrinsic to the finish product.

[jhlurie]

I'm moving this topic from the "General" Forum to "Adventures in Eating", because in an attempt to better illustrate the differences between those forums a bit more clearly it's become obvious that we need prime examples like this residing in the latter.

"General" is where you put stuff when you don't know where else on the site it fits--when it bridges themes or locale enough to not fit tightly anywhere else. "Adventures" is for the extremes--the great experiments, the "stuff" that is extraordinary, and Fowke's little Pastrami experiment has been about as extraordinary as anything we've ever had on eGullet. While we could quibble over the term "Eating", I don't think we need to.

[Chef Fowke]

And yes, my new restaurant will use the recipe posted here! Hopefully by September we will be up and running. I guarantee (laws providing) I will ship anywhere in North America.

[JCardinal]

I've been reading this entire thread avidly.

I've recently been experimenting with different techniques for "pulled pork" (brined and smoked pork shoulder roast) and I got to thinking that if I could do that I could probably make a fair stab at the delicious smoked meat sandwiches I used to eat when I lived in Montreal for a short time many years ago.

(I moved out there from B.C. as a young lad and learned very quickly that there are two things that will earn you apparent scorn and loathing from your waiter if you ask for them in a Montreal smoked meat restaurant: gravy for your french fries or Molson Canadian beer.)

A quick search on the net brought up this thread.

I really appreciate the attention to detail by Chef Fowke and I aim to give it a shot at home with my humble smoker and kitchen, however I have one question that I think went unanswered:

How closely in the end did you come to Montreal smoked meat?

[Chef Fowke]

I've been reading this entire thread avidly.

I've recently been experimenting with different techniques for "pulled pork" (brined and smoked pork shoulder roast) and I got to thinking that if I could do that I could probably make a fair stab at the delicious smoked meat sandwiches I used to eat when I lived in Montreal for a short time many years ago.

(I moved out there from B.C. as a young lad and learned very quickly that there are two things that will earn you apparent scorn and loathing from your waiter if you ask for them in a Montreal smoked meat restaurant: gravy for your french fries or Molson Canadian beer.)

A quick search on the net brought up this thread.

I really appreciate the attention to detail by Chef Fowke and I aim to give it a shot at home with my humble smoker and kitchen, however I have one question that I think went unanswered:

How closely in the end did you come to Montreal smoked meat?

I could not tell the difference...it tasted like it was fresh from Montreal (unfortunately I could have flown to Montreal for the same price with all the testing and retrying of the recipe)!

[ntavelis]

I AM A SMOKE MEAT CUTTER IN MONTREAL AND I HAVE BEEN REDING YOU MAIL SOME OF IT IS FUNNY I HAVE STEAMED MORE MEAT IN MY LIFE THAN YOU GUYS WILL EVER EAT TOGETHER WENE YOU STEAM IT FOR 2 HOURS DEPANDING ON THE SIZE OF THE BRISKET YOU LEAVE IT OU T FOR COOLING OF THAN YOU REHEAT IT YOU DONT HAVE TO WGHEIT DOWN

[Chef Fowke]

I AM A SMOKE MEAT CUTTER IN MONTREAL AND I HAVE BEEN REDING YOU MAIL SOME OF IT IS FUNNY I HAVE STEAMED MORE MEAT IN MY LIFE THAN YOU GUYS WILL EVER EAT TOGETHER WENE YOU STEAM IT FOR 2 HOURS DEPANDING ON THE SIZE OF THE BRISKET YOU LEAVE IT OU T FOR COOLING OF THAN YOU REHEAT IT YOU DONT HAVE TO WGHEIT DOWN

No, that is wrong. It is important to weight the meat regardless of cooling and re-heating. I tried both and the heavier the press the better while it cools.

[Chef Fowke]

The project is re-born!

I have spent some time in my good friend's kitchen at the Hamilton Street Grill and for selfish reasons we have just finished curing 20lbs of brisket and will be smoking/steaming it this week !!!

Give Neil a call and reserve your sandwich!

[jhlurie]

Chef, we missed you.

[Daddy-A]

The project is re-born!

I have spent some time in my good friend's kitchen at the Hamilton Street Grill and for selfish reasons we have just finished curing 20lbs of brisket and will be smoking/steaming it this week !!!

Give Neil a call and reserve your sandwich!

Dear GOD! I just discovered this thread today! Please tell me there's some pastrami left!!

What makes this even better is that I live in Vancouver!

Gotta make a phone call ...

DA

[Chef Fowke]

I saw a chunk of beef in the cooler! All smoked, steamed and ready to go. I even ventured to take a taste...

YES!

Give Neil a call and set up a time, I am sure he would be happy to arrange a sandwich or two.

[Chud62120798]

Thank you Chef Fowkes for your great experiment in smoked meat.

I was in Montreal last week, reconnecting with a past life and went to Schwartz's. Now I am completely obsessed with trying to make my own smoked meat. My question is, as I do not have a smoker, only a large throbbing Broil King BBQ. Is there something stopping me from making a smoker out of cardboard like Alton Brown's? Also, is there anyone out there in Vacuum Land who knows of a good kosher butcher in Toronto?

Cheers.

[Chef Fowke]

Yes, a backyard BBQ works well as a smoker. You just need to be careful of the temp. I keep a pan of ice handy to regulate the tempetature.

A smoking box can be purchased at Canadian Tire for less then $10 or a metal pan (do not use aluminum...poisonous).

For the steaming...use the BBQ as well. Keep a pan of water directly on the rocks (under the bars). This may void your warranty but it works well.

[Chud62120798]

Thank You Chef Fowke! I'm going to smoke my cured double brisket today. Have the CDN Tire smoker box, and have the time to watch it, and replace spent chips. You know, I've often wondered about aluminium foil...Sure won't use it now... I am going to steam it in a wok lidded "gypsy pan" contraption on the stove. I think I'm going to add a little Zatarane's liquid crab boil seasoning to the water because I just can't leave well enough alone...

[Chef Fowke]

Thank You Chef Fowke! I'm going to smoke my cured double brisket today. Have the CDN Tire smoker box, and have the time to watch it, and replace spent chips. You know, I've often wondered about aluminium foil...Sure won't use it now... I am going to steam it in a wok lidded "gypsy pan" contraption on the stove. I think I'm going to add a little Zatarane's liquid crab boil seasoning to the water because I just can't leave well enough alone...

can you digitally photo and post?

[Chud62120798]

I can digitally photograph, but I don't know if I'm allowed to post. I have to cure another brisket, because I was not happy with the results. First, I didn't take into account the different thicknesses of the meat. The thinner part was a little over cured to my mind. I think maybe I should rinse the meat longer , kinda like baccalao, because the meat was a bit too salty. I didn't smoke it enough, but I was rushing, and I suppose that's a no no for this sort of thing. I used some black pepper that was radioactive it was so hot...oops.Also, I cut back on the coriander in the pre smoking rub, and added crushed juniper berries and fresh bay leaves. I got the coriander seeds at the corner Sri Lankan shop, and they were also strong, I feared they would kill any other flavours happening. It still was super tasty with home made sour dough bran bread. I know it should be rye, but I didn't have any rye flour at the time. In any case, I've eaten most of the brisket., and intend to try to cure and smoke another , and I'll try to post pix of it and I hope that one will be beautiful.

[Chef Fowke]

...I hope you used salt peter as well to preserve the colour? When rinsing the meat it needs to be rinsed three time (a couple of hours each time) to pull the excess salt out.

Did you use the bran as the sourdough starter or a bran flour?

[col klink]

Chud, as soon as you post 20 times, you'll be able to post pics and we'll be able to enjoy them. Get to work!

[cubilularis]

...I hope you used salt peter as well to preserve the colour? When rinsing the meat it needs to be rinsed three time (a couple of hours each time) to pull the excess salt out.

Did you use the bran as the sourdough starter or a bran flour?

who sells salt peter in town?

[Chud62120798]

...I hope you used salt peter as well to preserve the colour? When rinsing the meat it needs to be rinsed three time (a couple of hours each time) to pull the excess salt out.

Did you use the bran as the sourdough starter or a bran flour?

AHA! I rinsed insufficiently. The starter was a whole wheat and yeast thingy.I cheated I guess with the yeast, but there's not alot of the type of micro-organisms flying around my kitchen for a true sour dough starter. I do feed it mashed over ripe bananas, and it really likes it. I added straight bran to the whole wheat.

I used salt peter.

[Chud62120798]

who sells salt peter in town?

I had to order salt peter from a drug store. The big chain store in my neighbourhood said their supplier only accepted big orders, so I went to a small Mom and Pop pharmacy. Don't say you're going to use it to teach the kids how to make gun powder because they don't think it's funny.

[Chud62120798]

Hmmm how many more posts. I visited my family this weekend, and oddly enough, my brother had been in Montreal, and he came over with an entire smoked brisket from Schwartz's, which we steamed and consumed greedily. Now I have another taste baseline, and my attempt wasn't as bad as I thought, but not as good as it could be. I think the aging on the beef must be important, because the Montreal brisket's fat had that yummy beefy funk roast smell that you don't get with beef that hasn't aged as much. I'm no expert though.