FOH v. BOH: Battle for the Soul of a Restaurant

[Fat Guy]

On the why do waiters make more than cooks topic, it was suggested that FOH v. BOH deserves its own thread. I agree. For those of you who aren't familiar with these acronyms, FOH equals Front-of-the-House, which means primarily waiters and others who work in the dining room. BOH is Back-of-the-House, primarily those in the kitchen.

They often hate each other. Thus, this thread.

[Basildog]

Also known as Slingers v Talent i do both, sometimes like tonight, at the same time I have always hated the "Them and Us" attitude that i experienced in various jobs, it never seemed to achieve anything.Super heated plates to burn staff, even once i witnessed a Sous Chef throw a plate of food 15ft at a waitress, just missing her head

I try and teach my boys that its a team thing, and a good relationship with the serving staff is a very good thing.Banter is fun, but they have to understand what the servers are trying to do, and conversely, the serving staff have to understand what we do.Respect for the other side makes life a lot better when the shit hits the fan.

[Holly Moore]

The other great restaurant battle is night shift vs. day shift. Typically each shift complains the other shift didn't do proper set up or breakdown. It's the one thing FOH and BOH agree on.

[pariah_kerry]

The other great restaurant battle is night shift vs. day shift.  Typically each shift complains the other shift didn't do proper set up or breakdown.  It's the one thing FOH and BOH agree on.

Very true...those damn lazy day people....

[Bux]

How common is this and is it not common at certain levels of restaurants? Is it less common or uncommon at destination restaurants -- basically the three and four star NY restaurants? I also assume this is an American thing and maybe a British thing. Can anyone comment about restaurants in France, Spain and Italy? I ask because in the few restaurants I have second and third hand knowledge, there seems to be no visible animosity between the front of the house and the kitchen. I know cooks and chefs who socialize with waiters, captains and managers and who seem to consider the staff as part of the same team.

[Jinmyo]

Can anyone comment about restaurants in France, Spain and Italy? I ask because in the few restaurants I have second and third hand knowledge, there seems to be no visible animosity between the front of the house and the kitchen. I know cooks and chefs who socialize with waiters, captains and managers and who seem to consider the staff as part of the same team.

Is it not still the case that FOH staff in the big places are still somewhat trained in the traditions of service as a profession? The dedication of such people is similar to that of the cooks.

A problem I remember is that FOH are often basically outsiders. They come and bus or wait or pour drinks for a few months or years and then go off to their "real jobs".

I remember someone saying that FOH were just customers who happened to put on an apron for a while and then went back to being customers without ever understanding the business.

[Basildog]

It's not all bad, sometimes FOH and BOH get together and make babies

[Jinmyo]

Ha ha ha.

How is wee Rebecca?

Adrian's (Basildog's) situation at Margot's Bistro is not typical but not unique. As a cook who became the chef who became the owner who became the maitre'd, there is no real division between FOH and BOH for him. And he tries to foster this sense of community amongst his staff. Margot's is a small and enough intimate enough operation that this really works for him.

But divisions between FOH and BOH are much more common.

[beans]

No battle with the FOH v. BOH for me.

The best and worst job was with a restaurant acrossed the river. (They were one of the ones that schemed up a wine list all year long to submit to WS with their $175 for their "award" and did use it to its fullest as a key marketing tool, despite that was not the real wine list! Doh!)

After three interviews, I had three shifts to see if I liked working at the place and got an offer to remain on staff. Then I had two weeks of cross training. I had three shifts in the kitchen (salad during a dinner shift, hotline during a lunch and dish--which I got spared in lieu of cleaning up and opening the patio bar structure for the first time all season, just as rotten trust me), three shifts serving (one lunch, two dinner) one hostessing and three shifts behind the bar (one opening, one closing inside and one closing at the outside patio bar). Those were the financially poorest three weeks I've ever worked in a restaurant!

Hired cooks had to wait tables for a week. It created friendships, bonds and respect for one another. After both of my kitchen shifts the cooks made a meal for me and gave me a hug. I was very nervous and didn't want to fuck up, but I have to admit we had fun and I kept up with the dreaded printer.

That wasn't the beginning of my respect and relationship with the heart of the house. My first summer serving, I came up with the idea of placing a duct tape boundary on the kitchen tile flooring for the expo. The servers had a tendancy to crowd his efforts and get in his hair. I knew how he felt after working for a bunch of white knuckled, clench fisted, controlling and micro-managing lawyers that would even inspect and witness the photocopying of a court filing before it was handed to the docket department for delivery to the clerk of courts. Plus I hated when expo screamed.

[Malawry]

FOH and BOH got along remarkably well in the kitchen where I worked. But the day people really hated the night people. They were sick of prepping for them. I'd mostly tune out these complaints on Monday morning (of COURSE we sold everything over the weekend, and what we didn't sell had to be trashed anyway) but I was progressively more sympathetic on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings. It's not like they were slammed on all those weeknights. But then again, I did more deep cleaning and reorganizing on slow night shifts, and those are things I almost never saw day shifters do in their spare time.

I tried to keep my mouth shut about it in general, since I was one of few non-salaried BOHers who worked both day and night shifts.

[beans]

I worked for a members only club. That was a place where day v. night staff clashed often. The evening staff would spend at least 45 minutes griping about how sloppy the day shift reset the tables. Our day bartender never cleaned. Our Executive Chef was a cantakerous man. He generally loathed most servers and routinely screamed he couldn't read their handwriting (gawd the days of handwritten guest checks!). During our preservice meetings, I understood, most of the waitstaff flaked out while he discussed the evenings features and wild game entree. He was also in charge of ordering and occasionally cooking (if he felt like it) our shift meal. Three months straight he prep'd wing dings. Now that is a special kind of hate.

Somewhere around a cigar and cognac dinner he and had to work together and that's where we became friends. Chef Brad entertained the members with the cigars and his gorgeous food and I discussed various cognacs and conducted a tasting. After that dinner, members would stop by more often in the pub. I sold more food and often pitched and sold the wild game. I was rewarded with being able to bypass the wing dings for a house salad and a cup of our soup!

[Basildog]

I think the bigger the place, the bigger the possibility for conflict.Our small place is run on a more "family" like basis.The biggest battles i've seen (and shame on me) been involved with are bigger hotel kitchens.

[Lounge Lizard]

As a Chef I have to say that the FOH is not so bad...in fact I've married two waitresses over the last 20 years.

[Suzanne F]

Still an interesting debate.

Any new ideas?

[KatieLoeb]

I have to agree with the cross-training idea suggested upthread. It was SOP at the Striped Bass under the former regime. Anyone that was hired in ANY FOH position had to spend at least one shift answering the phones, bussing tables, running food, barbacking/service bartending, and trailing/being a server. They also had to do one shift behind the line - in chef whites and all. And we had a very pretty and central open kitchen that was very much the focal point of the room. No screwing around, no yelling, no foolishness was tolerated and if you couldn't hack your shift behind the line, even if you were going to be a hostess, it was grounds for dismissal. We weeded out a lot of potentially disastrous employees that way. It was a good system and although I can't say it completely erased the line between FOH and BOH, it certainly gave folks a better understanding and respect for their co-workers.

I never understood why the line cooks and sous chefs didn't have to spend a shift waiting tables though. I thought that would have been a useful experience, but I guess it was the Talent vs the Trained Monkeys thing again.

[Lactic Solar Dust]

This is such a cool thread! Two polar opposites attempting to be a cohesive unit for 5 hours each night for one common goal. But as most of us know, sometimes a nuclear explosion happens between the two and everything goes to hell - well, for 20 minutes anyways.

[emilymarie]

At a lot of the restaurants in my area, many of the waiters and bussers are high school and college-aged and are just doing the job for some extra money. As soon as the work's done--and I mean AS SOON and no later--they are out of there. Not to say that they don't have a good work ethic, but there is not that strong a sense of connection to the restaurant, which in turn, I think, leads to a slightly more casual attitude about making everything perfect.

On the other hand, I think that a lot of cooks feel like the food they put out is a product of an entire day's work--it is, really--and when it sits and starts to get limp or cold or whatever or is brought to the wrong person it's so disappointing--plus it reflects poorly on the restaurant (a customer will think, I paid $12 for a limp salad?). There is so much pressure to get food out cooked, hot, fast, and looking nice--and when there is disaorganization in the front, food doesn't go out as it should, and all of the work the cook has put into a dish is all but lost. This is the cause for some of the fights, I think.

[slkinsey]

I imagine it comes down, in many ways, to the fact that FOH is usually not a career choice and BOH often is. I'm sure it's also much more likely to be seen in larger, more corporate and/or busy restaurants not owned/operated by family.

I've never seen any signs of this conflict in small family owned/operated restaurants that serve at a leisurely pace.

[pidge]

I imagine it comes down, in many ways, to the fact that FOH is usually not a career choice and BOH often is.  I'm sure it's also much more likely to be seen in larger, more corporate and/or busy restaurants not owned/operated by family.

I've never seen any signs of this conflict in small family owned/operated restaurants that serve at a leisurely pace.

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seriously?!?!??

i worked as a waitress in a restaurant owned by a brother and sister and their respective spouses. their dad washed dishes and did landscaping, and mom made desserts. never, ever in the ensuing 20 odd years i've spent in the biz have i seen anything like that misbegotten conflict....the brother was chef, bil was bar manager...they actually used to throw knives and glasses at each other. the sisters in law hated each other (one eventually left her husband for her brother in law) and had screaming fights weekly. mom and pop, despite 40 years together used to go at it pretty regular-like as well. the chef hit on the waitresses, who were friends of his daughter, naturally leading his wife, the hostess, to be slightly hostile. service happened to be relatively leisurely, as one had to tiptoe very carefully to get the food out of the kitchen without stepping on some landmine.

i honestly think it has little to do with the size of the place or the type of ownership...different people encourage respect different ways, and if you enter into the situation with an us vs. them attitude, you're bound to have that kind of atmosphere.

[glenn]

Every single restaurant I've worked at (6) save for the last one had its FOH vs. BOH animosities/battles/wars - to varying degrees. Mostly for different reasons, but the one common denominator seemed to be the conflicting duties of managers and chefs. Both groups seem to be very territorial. Mind you, this is my experience and I don't mean to imply this is universal.

One restaurant was particularly bad in this regard mostly because the owner clearly fostered the animostity. She'd regularly refer to the kitchen employees as the FKP's, the filthy kitchen people. It was so ludicrous it was a riot. Someone should have written a book :)) One time the manager led a rebellion among the FOH staff and, instead of eating the staff meal which they called dog food, they all ordered off the menu with the owner's blessing and paid employee price. Ah, the good ol' days. :)

[Carrot Top]

There is supposed to be something called a manager.

On organization charts, whether drawn out or just in the staffs heads...this is who they report to.

It is the managers responsibility and part of their ongoing daily job to be sure that BOH and FOH respect each other and get along.

If there is no manager that is in charge, ultimately, of BOTH groups, that is a problem.

If there is a manager that is in charge that is wandering around and not addressing the BOH vs. FOH situational workings, that is a problem too.

If there is a manager who thinks their job is to be in the office doing officework all day or night and not walking the floor, that is a problem too.

A good, caring manager can cut this crap between BOH and FOH out, for the most part. It is not something that is required to operate...and it is not something that is 'inherent in the business' unless you allow it to be.

It is truly a crying shame that this business that supposedly offers 'hospitality' and happiness on a plate...puts up with this operational nonsense with the people that are working in it.

[NulloModo]

In any business there will be conflict between the various category of employees.

When I worked in comissioned sales we (the commissioned salespeople) had an ongoing fued with the customer service people (who would allow returns which took money from our checks) and the warehouse staff (who refused to stuff things into vehicles which we were sure would fit, and would have earned us extra money). It led to some tense moments, but it was all part of the job. I imagine in a restaurant it is similar, everyone wants to maximize his/her paycheck and do the least amount of strenuous work possible. I suppose in an optimal situation the management really should just step in and make sure everyone understands that each category of employee has to do his/her job in order for everyone to succeed.

[Carrot Top]

It should not have to be an optimal situation, though. It should be a regular situation.

There is a very simple management tool called the Job Description. A well-written job description states exactly which tasks each defined job encompasses and at what level of compentency these tasks are expected to be done by the person that is hired to do that job.

Any person who accepts the job must also accept and sign off that they clearly understand the responsibilities and tasks that the job demands...and generally if there are more than one 'group' of types of employees working together to create a product or service, the tasks defined in the various job descriptions fit together in the best manner for the business and for the people working there.

If the tasks are not being performed by the person(s) in an acceptable manner, then they should be called on it. And called on it again and again until they get it right and stop disturbing the work flow and pleasant atmosphere that should exist in a well-managed place.

Obviously each business will (or should) have clearly defined limits as to how often an employee will be counseled by management for performance-based issues before that employee would be considered for termination...and this is something that also should be made clear and signed off on during the hiring process.

What disturbs me even more than the fact that this simple management task is not done as often as it could or should be...(for everyone spends a great deal of their time at work when they do have a full time job...and there is no reason on earth for it to be unpleasant...what a waste of the precious stuff of life, which is time!) is that still, in this business, the restaurant business...we still hear of chefs who throw things at people, who are allowed screaming tantrums, etc...based on the fact that 'it has always been that way'...or 'they are creative'.

Utter nonsense.

They need to stop this act, and they need to start acting the same way professionals in other businesses do or they will not ever, really, be considered of the same ilk.

To throw something at a person with intent to hurt them...on any street in the USA... could be considered assault.

Why...should it be tolerated...in a kitchen?

Edited November 3, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Daddy-A]

I never understood why the line cooks and sous chefs didn't have to spend a shift waiting tables though.  I thought that would have been a useful experience, but I guess it was the Talent vs the Trained Monkeys thing again.

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When I was sales manager for a local kitchen cabinet company, I sent all new sales staff to work in the shop for a week, and then out with the install crew for the first two jobs they sold. Designers are notoriously snooty at times, especially towards trades ... this approach leveled the playing field, and also gave the trades a better understanding of the sales staff as well.

Without good trades, my career as a designer would be over. So it is I suppose with FOH vs. BOH.

A.

[abbe]

aww man i thought i was going to find a full-on FOH/BOH war in here i was all ready to jump in and reprezent up in this piece

this just confirms my suspicion egullet is BOH-intensive. ( hahahaa all the FOHes are busy bitching at shamelessrestaurants and bitterwaitress )

well if anybody cares, the FOH v. BOH thing is evidently a major point of contention throughout the industry generally. like just for example, i happen to know for a fact the ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ("viewer appeal") of "bourdain's BOH" is CONSTANTLY being pitted against "jean-georges's FOH"

heeheee and since we've already determined bourdain himself will have little (or nothing) to do with the production of the TV series that bears his book title

i would have to say in this particular case

FOH is going to kick BOH's ass