Duck Confit

[slkinsey]

Inventolux, you didn't really address Dave's question, which is: please explain why keeping poultry at 120F for an extended period of time wouldn't tend to grow a lot of bacteria.

Also... I'm not sure that I agree with you that "steam is amost always hotter than boiling water." There are many things that can cause water to undergo a phase shift from liquid to gas that do not necesssarily include mean that the water gas will be above the boiling point of water. I think we can agree, for example, that the water mollecules in a 70F room are at 70F and not at 212F. How exactly do you think it would work so that the water inside of a duck leg in a 135F water bath could possibly reach 212F? In fact, I'd be interested to hear an explanation that obeys the laws of physics for how any part of that duck leg could possibly reach any temperature above 135F (assuming that the duck leg was below 135F before being intriduced to the water bath).

Edited June 27, 2003 by slkinsey (log)

[inventolux]

And steam is amost always hotter than boiling water depending on its density. Even if the water temperature is only 135f. There are many reactions happening inside the pouch, steam is only one of many.

If you have ever recieved a steam burn, you know the hard way that steam can be much hotter than water. An extreme example would be the steam tip on an espresso/cappucino maker.

Steam is produced by the transformation of water from liquid to gaseous state. At sea level, this only happens at 212F/100C. It doesn't happen at any lower temperature. You're not making steam (at least steam from water) at 135F. Sorry.

By definition, steam is always hotter than water. If it weren't, it wouldn't be steam, but rather water!

Pressure does have an effect on the temperature of steam. The temperature of produced steam under no pressure is 212F. It then increases 3 degrees F per additional pound of pressure (sorry, can't do the metric conversions in my head), so at 3psi, steam is 218F. Steam coming out of an espresso/cappucino machine is going to be hotter than 212, though I'm skeptical that you can tell the difference between 212F and 225F with your hand.

As for steam having "flavor", I think what you're smelling are the chemicals released by the cooking food being mixed in and carried with the steam.

Have you ever turned on a hot faucet that wasnt boiling hot water (212f or 100c)? What happens? It steams. So you can create steam without boiling water. Unless my faucet and every other faucet on planet earth is different from yours. So when we bring water to 140f (poaching temperature) it doesnot steam? It in fact does.

Bottom line:

When you pull a pot of hot water of the stove that WAS boiling, and 2 minutes later ceases to boil..........it still persists to steam. Water doesnt just decide to no longer steam after it hits 89c.

And yes the statement "steam has flavor" does include the compounds that steam carries with it.

Edited June 27, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Chicken wrapped in plastic is not under any appreciable pressure. So nothing in the environment (short of a chemical reaction of a type not usually provoked by this ingredient list) ever gets hotter than 135F.

Maybe Charlie's chickens are germ-free, and his kitchen is sterile, but 135 is in the "danger zone" that home cooks are always being warned about, and with good reason.

And, though I'd be willing to try it, I'm not sure that chicken breast at 135 is going to have a very appetizing texture. I'm certain that the dark meat of chicken at that temperture would be considered inedible by most people.

[slkinsey]

Have you ever turned on a hot faucet that wasnt boiling hot water (212f or 100c)? What happens? It steams. So you can create steam without boiling water. Unless my faucet and every other faucet on planet earth is different from yours. So when we bring water to 140f (poaching temperature) it doesnot steam? It in fact does.

Bottom line:

When you pull a pot of hot water of the stove that WAS boiling, and 2 minutes later ceases to boil..........it still persists to steam. Water doesnt just decide to no longer steam after it hits 89c.

McDowell's definition of "steam" is a very certain kind of definition, and one that does not fit your use. Let me give you another example: I am playing (American) football in Wisconsin in January. It is 4 degrees F outside. When I come to the sideline, I take my helmet off. Steam can be seen rising from my scalp. Are you trying to tell me that the sweat on my head is 212F? That I'm boiling water with my head? Not only that, but I think we can say that the steam rising from my head is demonstrably not hotter than the water on my scalp.

[mcdowell]

Have you ever turned on a hot faucet that wasnt boiling hot water (212f or 100c)? What happens? It steams. So you can create steam without boiling water. Unless my faucet and every other faucet on planet earth is different from yours.

No, bubba, it doesn't steam, it condenses. It makes fog. The cold air around the hot water stream becomes saturated and condensation is produced. Put your hand in this "steam" and you'll see that it's not hot at all. You see the same effect on water just before it boils.

This is the same "steam" that comes out of your mouth in cold temperatures, or floats over marsh on a warm morning after a cool night.

[MatthewB]

What about a cocoa steam bath?

[inventolux]

Chicken wrapped in plastic is not under any appreciable pressure. So nothing in the environment (short of a chemical reaction of a type not usually provoked by this ingredient list) ever gets hotter than 135F.

Maybe Charlie's chickens are germ-free, and his kitchen is sterile, but 135 is in the "danger zone" that home cooks are always being warned about, and with good reason.

And, though I'd be willing to try it, I'm not sure that chicken breast at 135 is going to have a very appetizing texture. I'm certain that the dark meat of chicken at that temperture would be considered inedible by most people.

I just used this technique for 12 friends last thursday out of my home, and nobody got sick. I use it for everything from french turbot to lamb loins and I have never become ill or made anyone else ill. Its a technique that has served CT's well for a long time now.

The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.

If you are cooking dark meat, (and the recipe is for a breast) then cook it until it is fork tender. (Which in my opinion is the best way to eat dark meat.)

Edited June 27, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[mcdowell]

What about a cocoa steam bath?

Now That sounds like fun, sign me up

[slkinsey]

There may be better, more scientific definitions of steam (which I would welcome). Until such time as that definition is offered, this entry from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary may be of some use.

Main Entry: steam

Pronunciation: 'stEm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam

Date: before 12th century

1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance

2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor

According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.

[MatthewB]

What about a cocoa steam bath?

Now That sounds like fun, sign me up

I think slkinsey is lining this up with his girl.

[inventolux]

What about a cocoa steam bath?

Now That sounds like fun, sign me up

What is a cocoa steam bath?

[inventolux]

There may be better, more scientific definitions of steam (which I would welcome).  Until such time as that definition is offered, this entry from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary may be of some use.

Main Entry: steam

Pronunciation: 'stEm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam

Date: before 12th century

1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance

2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor

According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.

Your faucet must be like mine.

[slkinsey]

The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.

I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.

[inventolux]

The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.

I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.

You have to try it and see it to believe it.

[slkinsey]

According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.

Your faucet must be like mine.

I'm sure it is. And I am also sure that the steam coming off of our faucet water is not one bit hotter than the water (and within fractions of a second is actually cooler).

[MatthewB]

Sam,

Explain the cocoa steam bath to inventolux so we can move on.

[slkinsey]

The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.

I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.

You have to try it and see it to believe it.

Dude... I've cryovac-ed things and cooked them in a water bath before... and I still don't think it builds up much pressure inside the bag.

[slkinsey]

Sam,

Explain the cocoa steam bath to inventolux so we can move on.

That's where one cooks in the steam created by the application of my hot naked body to a mixture of aged spring water and dutch process cocoa. Delicious, if a little sweaty.

[inventolux]

The chicken is cold when it goes into the pouch, as you heat the pouch the pressure builds inside the bag. The kitchen string holds the bag together so it doesnt explode. There is the appreciable pressure.

I have a hard time believing that any significant pressure is created this way. There is no way that bag isn't going to swell and reduce the pressure. Even if you took the sealed bag, poured concrete around it, allowed the concrete to harden and then raised the whole thing to 135F, I still think the pressure created by the expasion of the duck leg, etc. would be insignificant.

You have to try it and see it to believe it.

Dude... I've cryovac-ed things and cooked them in a water bath before... and I still don't think it builds up much pressure inside the bag.

When you cryovac, you remove a lot of air. Thats less air to heat up and expand. When you simply wrap things in plastic wrap, you trap in more air and are heating up a larger air mass. Like a hot air balloon.

[inventolux]

Sam,

Explain the cocoa steam bath to inventolux so we can move on.  

That's where one cooks in the steam created by the application of my hot naked body to a mixture of aged spring water and dutch process cocoa. Delicious, if a little sweaty.

That sounds like some progressive technique I can only begin to comrehend.

[mcdowell]

There may be better, more scientific definitions of steam (which I would welcome).  Until such time as that definition is offered, this entry from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary may be of some use.

Main Entry: steam

Pronunciation: 'stEm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam

Date: before 12th century

1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance

2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor

According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.

Popular usage of the word "steam" does include the vapor coming off your head or the hot asphalt street in the cold, etc. I'll grant you that.

When we're talking about the science of cooking, however, we're talking about science. Definitions need to be more precise than than the popular usage. In that universe, steam has an extremely simple definition, and it's as described before.

You're not going to use the "steam" coming off your head, no matter how hard you try, to cook broccoli.

[MatthewB]

Sam,

Explain the cocoa steam bath to inventolux so we can move on.  

That's where one cooks in the steam created by the application of my hot naked body to a mixture of aged spring water and dutch process cocoa. Delicious, if a little sweaty.

That sounds like some progressive technique I can only begin to comrehend.

That, my friend, is the *new* avant-garde.

You're already a generation behind, invento!

[inventolux]

There may be better, more scientific definitions of steam (which I would welcome).  Until such time as that definition is offered, this entry from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary may be of some use.

Main Entry: steam

Pronunciation: 'stEm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English stem, from Old English stEam; akin to Dutch stoom steam

Date: before 12th century

1 : a vapor arising from a heated substance

2 a : the invisible vapor into which water is converted when heated to the boiling point b : the mist formed by the condensation on cooling of water vapor

According to my reading of this, the visible vapor rising from a hot faucet is, indeed, "steam" -- as is the breath that comes our of your mouth at cold temperatures.

Popular usage of the word "steam" does include the vapor coming off your head or the hot asphalt street in the cold, etc. I'll grant you that.

When we're talking about the science of cooking, however, we're talking about science. Definitions need to be more precise than than the popular usage. In that universe, steam has an extremely simple definition, and it's as described before.

You're not going to use the "steam" coming off your head, no matter how hard you try, to cook broccoli.

Ok thats funny

[slkinsey]

When you cryovac, you remove a lot of air. Thats less air to heat up and expand. When you simply wrap things in plastic wrap, you trap in more air and are heating up a larger air mass. Like a hot air balloon.

Wait? You're saying you do this in plastic wrap?! Dude, there's no way that builds up any pressure. And yes, I've done that before! I don't care how much string you tie around the package, there is no way any pressure builds up. I mean, how strong do you think the plastic wrap is? Does it not occur to you that any significant internal pressure would easily burst multiple layers of plastic wrap? For that matter, you could wrap the whole package in duct tape, and any significant internal pressure would burst that too.

(My apoligies if I am misunderstanding your technique and use of materials.)

[slkinsey]

When we're talking about the science of cooking, however, we're talking about science. Definitions need to be more precise than than the popular usage. In that universe, steam has an extremely simple definition, and it's as described before.

It's not clear to me that your definition is necessarily a general-purpose scientific one. Especially given the following:

Steam is produced by the transformation of water from liquid to gaseous state. At sea level, this only happens at 212F/100C.

The second part of your definition would seem to be contradicted by the first part when one considers the phenomenon of sublimation. Considering my "football example" above, the water on my scalp would be making a phase shift from a liquid to a gas state via sublimation. And the temperature of that steam would be <100C/212F.

Edited June 27, 2003 by slkinsey (log)