Dairy Products in Japanese Cuisine

Jinmyo · June 21, 2003

I can almost understand the fondness for mayonaisse in contemporary Japanese cuisine. Almost.

But the use of butter and especially cheese together with shoyu, dashi, and soy-based products really creeps me out.

Kristin, have you tales to tell that will horrify me?

torakris · June 21, 2003

ooh let's see

how about

shiitake and string cheese with goma-ae

iridofu (scarmbled tofu) made with the addition of cottage cheese

deep fried gyoza with cheese and natto

aburage pockets filled with cheese and natoo, then grilled

atsu-age "pizzas"

tofu steaks topped with cheese and sauteed with butter and soy sauce

an my absolute favorite

bruschetta topped with bacon, kimchi, cheese and heated under the broiler

Jinmyo · June 21, 2003

Kristin, abominable. Thanks.

Except for the bruschetta with bacon, kimchi, and cheese. Kimchi works with just about anything. But then it's Korean and Korean cuisine works well with fats and meats.

gus_tatory · June 22, 2003

ooh, some of those sound like waay too much of a good thing. the gyoza with cheese and natto--who was in the test kitchen that day?! :smile:

gus

margaret · June 22, 2003

I agree for the most part about dairy and Japanese food, but make an exception for a nice foil-yaki with butter and shoyu. Mushrooms work particularly well.

Tofu and cheese, ugh. Atsu-age and cheese, ugh.

margaret · June 22, 2003

I agree for the most part about dairy and Japanese food, but make an exception for a nice foil-yaki with butter and shoyu. Mushrooms work particularly well.

Tofu and cheese, ugh. Atsu-age and cheese, ugh.

Jinmyo · June 22, 2003

Margaret, shoyu can be brought into a butter-based cuisine easily enough. Especially with meats and mushrooms. But bringing butter and, especially cheese and cream, into a palette of dashi, fermented bean pastes, vegetables, and very fresh seafood is like a raging bull in a sushi bar.

Jinmyo · June 22, 2003

Kristin, by the way, when they say "cheese" for example with natto, what kind of cheese is being spoken of?

torakris · June 22, 2003

Kristin, by the way, when they say "cheese" for example with natto, what kind of cheese is being spoken of?

When we talk about cheese in Japan, it is 95% of the time processed cheese, think American cheese but even blander.

The next 4% is camembert, which is very popular here, but mostly made by Japanese companies and also quite bland.

The last 1% are import cheeses mostly for sale in International markets

I have made these figures up by myself from what I see in the supermarkets, but i am pretty sure I am not too far off :biggrin:

Jinmyo · June 22, 2003

Hm. I thought as much. Which comes back to my oft-stated point about Japanese cuisine simply having no real understanding of fats and meat.

torakris · June 22, 2003

Hm. I thought as much. Which comes back to my oft-stated point about Japanese cuisine simply having no real understanding of fats and meat.

:laugh:

we need a good smirk icon!

smallworld · June 23, 2003

Margaret, shoyu can be brought into a butter-based cuisine easily enough. Especially with meats and mushrooms. But bringing butter and, especially cheese and cream, into a palette of dashi, fermented bean pastes, vegetables, and very fresh seafood is like a raging bull in a sushi bar.

I pretty much agree, about the cream and cheese (though cheese- even the processed kind- is great in any of the deep-fried or pan-fried Japanese foods).

I've never tried it, but I've seen a recipe for miso soup with milk. Ugh!

One of my favourite nabes, Ishikari Nabe, is tame by comparison- a dashi-based miso broth with seafood (always salmon and sometimes other stuff like scallops, uni, ikura), tofu, and veggies. It is usually topped with a big dallop of butter. Butter and miso are a great combination!

torakris · July 7, 2003

yesterday I ran across a yaki-udon recipe with kimchi and processed cheese................ :blink:

Jinmyo · July 7, 2003

I've never tried it, but I've seen a recipe for miso soup with milk. Ugh!
One of my favourite nabes, Ishikari Nabe, is tame by comparison- a dashi-based miso broth with seafood (always salmon and sometimes other stuff like scallops, uni, ikura), tofu, and veggies. It is usually topped with a big dallop of butter. Butter and miso are a great combination!

I've used shiro miso as a component in a white onion soup that had chicken stock and much butter.

But I can't abide the thought of butter being brought into a miso based dish. It is completely inconsistent with the flavour and texture profiles.

Still, I'd be willing to try the nabe that you mention because the salmon, scallops, and uni might turn the direction such that butter marries well.

As for milk in miso-shiru, that's alarming. The "clouds" of miso particles appearing in a broth with milk as one stirs is a terrifying image.

torakris · July 8, 2003

Something that seemed to be quite popular this past winter was soy milk nabe.

You basically filled up the nabe with soy milk, heated it and then added the ingredients of your choice, I could never bring myself to try it................

torakris · August 17, 2003

ran across a good one the other night and Jin I immediately thought of you! :biggrin:

There is this this kids cooking show on Saturday evenings where elementary school aged kids prepare food either alone or with siblings for either their parents, the hosts of the show or special guests. Each show has a theme that is usually tied into the local in which they are filming. This week they were focusing on kurobuta, the famed Japanese black pig.

There are normally 3 groups of kids/kids and they prepare 2 to 3 dishes, the one group started off well

they took some of the pork and stirfried it kimchi

then in a different pan they made a quick vegetable curry with potatoes, carrots and green beans

THEN

the mixed the two together! :biggrin:

AND THEN

then stuffed the mixture in aburage (tofu pockets) that they had simmered in a soy-mirin mixture

AND THEN

covered it with a slice of cheese and a tomato slice

AND THEN

popped it into the toaster oven

That poor father tried so hard to smile while he was eating it................... :sad:

torakris · August 17, 2003

here is a picture of the dish:

http://www.ntv.co.jp/mogumogu/20030816/images/r04.jpg

and the website of the program

mogumogu gombo

http://www.ntv.co.jp/mogumogu/index.html

Jinmyo · August 18, 2003

Gah.

That's just terrifying.

torakris · August 24, 2003

I've never tried it, but I've seen a recipe for miso soup with milk. Ugh!
One of my favourite nabes, Ishikari Nabe, is tame by comparison- a dashi-based miso broth with seafood (always salmon and sometimes other stuff like scallops, uni, ikura), tofu, and veggies. It is usually topped with a big dallop of butter. Butter and miso are a great combination!
I've used shiro miso as a component in a white onion soup that had chicken stock and much butter.
But I can't abide the thought of butter being brought into a miso based dish. It is completely inconsistent with the flavour and texture profiles.
Still, I'd be willing to try the nabe that you mention because the salmon, scallops, and uni might turn the direction such that butter marries well.
As for milk in miso-shiru, that's alarming. The "clouds" of miso particles appearing in a broth with milk as one stirs is a terrifying image.

A program I was watching the other day had some kids making an Ishikari nabe, they had half miso soup and half milk mixed together, tossed in some quartered crabs, salmon, potatoes, carrots, tofu and fuki (butterbur), then topped it off with dollops of butter................

Jinmyo · August 24, 2003

That's insane.

jrufusj · August 26, 2003

All of us have our sinful pleasures...even when they violate our principles.

I am equally disdainful of blending dairy into (almost all) Asian foods. In Korea, budae jjigae is one of my favorite fast foods, but I never like the common version with cheese. I've never been very happy with any Japanese dishes that incorporate dairy (except maybe butteryaki enokitake). However, every time I go to Japan, there are certain things that I must pick up to smuggle back to Seoul. Among these is a cheap uni-tarako paste mixture from the food shop in Narita. Eaten alone, it's way too salty, but in combination with other things (like an adornment to temaki) it's great.

So...sinful pleasure...I make this kaibashira dish with truly huge shellfish (called khi chogae in Korean, don't know name in Japanese). I slice the kaibashira 95% percent of the way through horizontally in three places, then stuff with akajiso, aojiso, and finely sliced shiitake, then grill the whole thing. To top it off, I make an emulsion of butter and the uni-tarako paste as a sauce and top off with a little aonegi.

Authentic? No.

Appropriate ingredient blending? No.

Sinfully satisfying? Yes (he says blushingly).

So what do other people do with dairy and Japanese ingredients that they shouldn't?

By the way, this is my first post to e-gullet since joining. What a great site!

Jim

torakris · August 26, 2003

So...sinful pleasure...I make this kaibashira dish with truly huge shellfish (called khi chogae in Korean, don't know name in Japanese). I slice the kaibashira 95% percent of the way through horizontally in three places, then stuff with akajiso, aojiso, and finely sliced shiitake, then grill the whole thing. To top it off, I make an emulsion of butter and the uni-tarako paste as a sauce and top off with a little aonegi.

This sounds wonderful!

It is common to use the the akajiso (red leaf shiso) in its fresh form in Korea?

I don't think I have ever seen it used fresh in Japan, only dried in furikake or pickled.

I think uni-tarako paste and butter is a good combination, I combine butter with either tarako or mentaiko when making pasta and love it!

torakris · August 26, 2003

Jim,

although we don't have a Korea forum we have lots of topics about Korea buried in the elsewhere in Asia/Pacific forum, feel free to bring anything back up or start a new topic!

We are always happy to discuss Korean food!

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=SF&f=21&

Edited August 26, 2003 by torakris (log)

FoodZealot · August 26, 2003

Margaret, shoyu can be brought into a butter-based cuisine easily enough. Especially with meats and mushrooms. But bringing butter and, especially cheese and cream, into a palette of dashi, fermented bean pastes, vegetables, and very fresh seafood is like a raging bull in a sushi bar.

Jinmyo-san,

I am catching up (page 64!) in the Dinner thread, so I am very aware of your considerable talents.

Being that miso and shoyu are so closely related, I am surprised by your strong statement against butter, cheese and cream with miso. I think diary has a softening or blending effect on flavors, and miso is so concentrated that it would not suffer if done properly. Although, I agree that dashi and seafood probably cannot support cheese and cream. Would you please elaborate?

By the way, as a kid, it was a treat for the family to have batayaki, which is essentially teppanyaki except that butter is used as the cooking fat. It might not be authentic, but I assure you it is delicious.

Respectfully,

~Tad

jrufusj · August 27, 2003

Kristin:

I've never seen akajiso used fresh in Japanese or Korean cuisine. I can't even always find it in Seoul. One of the small vegetable stands outside Noryangjin (Seoul's much smaller version of Tsukiji) carries shiso. Sometimes it is just aojiso, sometimes it is a little wrapped styrofoam tray with both ao- and akajiso. That was what he had the day I first made the kaibashira dish, so I decided to use some akajiso for visual effect.

I've had butter-tarako sauce for pasta, but never butter-mentaiko. I'll have to try that as I really like mentaiko.

Thanks for the pointer to the Korea thread(s) in the other forum and also for the mentaiko suggestion.

Jim

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