The Wonders of Winespeak

[Craig Camp]

A high-level editor suspected sabotage -- how else to explain why two Pinot Grigios recommended by The Chronicle's tasting panel were described in last week's Wine section as smelling of cat urine?

[Mark Sommelier]

Pipi du chat is a legitimate descriptor of sauvignon blanc. I've never heard it used for pinot grigio. I refuse to sell pinot grigio. It is the white zinfandel of the 21st century.

[Craig Camp]

Pipi du chat is a legitimate descriptor of sauvignon blanc. I've never heard it used for pinot grigio. I refuse to sell pinot grigio. It is the white zinfandel of the 21st century.

Whoa - dem's fightin' words. You never heard of:

Livio Felluga, Collio

Castello de Spessa, Collio

Russiz Superiore, Collio

Cantina Produttori San Michele Appiano, St. Valentin, Alto Adige

Schiopetto, Collio

Villa Russiz, Collio

Borgo San Daniele, Friuli Isonzo

Viticoltori Caldaro, Soll, Alto Adige

Alois Lageder, Benefizium Porer, Alto Adige

Ferdinado e Aldo Polencic, Collio

Isidoro Polencic, Collio

Ronco del Gelso, Friuli Isonzo

Pierpaolo Pecorari

Bastinaich, Plus, Colli Orientali del Friuli

Jermann, I.G.T. (Collio)

Vie di Romans, Dessimis, Friuli Isonzo

Each one is an exceptional wine that would qualify for consideration on any serious wine list.

[Stone]

To wine evaluators, cat's pee refers to the herbal, grassy, green pepper and asparagus juice aroma that develops in certain white wines.

Winsob 1 (The Expert) -- Hmm, I detect, a bouquet of herbal, grassy green pepper and asparagus juice. Definitely. I often refer to this as "kitty pee pee."

Winsob 2 (The Rich-Guy-With-Lots-Of-Money-And-A-Big-Gold-Chain-Around-His-Neck) -- Oh, yes. The instant I tatsed it, I said to myself, hey, that's a bouquet of herbal, grassy green pepper and asparagus juice. Yes, yes, yes. Mr. 1, you'r amazing.

Winsob 3 (The Guy-Who-Just-Paid-A-Lot-of-Money-To-Take-A-Tasting-Course) -- At first, I thought it tasted like piss. But now I realize that it wasn't really, piss, it was cat urine. A whole different animal, so to speak. And, of course, this cat had recently dined on herbal, grassy green pepper and asparagus juice.

Beer Drinker -- Why should I spend $25 for a bottle of cat piss? My cat gives it to me for free at home. And still, I'd rather drink a $3 bottle of shitty, lite, dry, ice beer because, you know, if it's going to taste like piss, at least it's cheap. And what the fuck are you talking about "herbal, grassy green pepper and asparagus juice?" What does that mean? Does anyone on the planet have any idea what "herbal, grassy green pepper and asparagus juice" tastes like?

Winsob 1 -- But it's not wine?

Edited June 5, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Mark Sommelier]

Years ago I attended the Wine Spectator "Experience" in Manhattan. Michael Broadbent brought down the house when he sniffed a glass of Ladoucette and proclaimed: "Cat pee" in front of 800 people.

["T"]

Pipi du chat is a legitimate descriptor of sauvignon blanc. I've never heard it used for pinot grigio. I refuse to sell pinot grigio. It is the white zinfandel of the 21st century.

Whoa - dem's fightin' words. You never heard of:

Livio Felluga, Collio

Castello de Spessa, Collio

Russiz Superiore, Collio

Cantina Produttori San Michele Appiano, St. Valentin, Alto Adige

Schiopetto, Collio

Villa Russiz, Collio

Borgo San Daniele, Friuli Isonzo

Viticoltori Caldaro, Soll, Alto Adige

Alois Lageder, Benefizium Porer, Alto Adige

Ferdinado e Aldo Polencic, Collio

Isidoro Polencic, Collio

Ronco del Gelso, Friuli Isonzo

Pierpaolo Pecorari

Bastinaich, Plus, Colli Orientali del Friuli

Jermann, I.G.T. (Collio)

Vie di Romans, Dessimis, Friuli Isonzo

Each one is an exceptional wine that would qualify for consideration on any serious wine list.

Go git em' Craig.

[cdh]

I refuse to sell pinot grigio. It is the white zinfandel of the 21st century.

I agree w/ Craig that them's fightin' words... So let's dissect the comment:

What do you mean by "white zinfandel"? PG that I've tried is by no means similar to the syrupy sweet pink stuff in its flavor profile. Have people unbeknownst to me begun to vinify PG into the same sweet sticky stuff that reminds one of rotten fruit? Or do you mean to say that PG is an entry level wine that people graduate from and move on to serious wines? (And your restaurant is not a place for those still on their oenophilic training wheels?) Are you saying that PG is a wine for those with incurably bad taste? Or is PG something that no self-respecting sommellier should ever recommend because it is a sub-par product created by the marketing wings of giant multinational corporations in response to focus group tastings? Do please elaborate. I could extrapolate many more possible meanings from your white zin crack, but I'd really like to know what you meant.

Btw, do Alsatian Pinot Gris fall under the same moratorium, or is it only Italian PGs raise your ire?

[Mark Sommelier]

Woo Hoo!! I have my conceits - we all do. To answer several questions: Yes, I sell pinot gris. For my taste, Alsatian pinot gris is more food oriented. Look for Josmeyer's "Le Fromenteau". Gorgeous wine. The problem I have with most pinot grigio is that it is cheap crap. Pardon me if that sounds snooty. I work in a French restaurant. I have a small selection of Italian wine. I had pinot grigio on the list before. I was appalled at how quickly it sold. With 600 selections, why would one wine sell so quickly? When I asked people, the answer was "that's what we drink at home". Its a default wine for people too lazy or too (sorry) ignorant to read a winelist, ask a question or try something new. I used Jermann's PG. People didn't like it because it doesn't taste like Santa Marguerita. I used Sciopetto's, but people were turned off by the screwcap for $55. ............ I can see I'm digging myself deeper in doodoo here.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

I work in a French restaurant. I have a small selection of Italian wine. I had pinot grigio on the list before. I was appalled at how quickly it sold. With 600 selections, why would one wine sell so quickly? When I asked people, the answer was "that's what we drink at home". Its a default wine for people too lazy or too (sorry) ignorant to read a winelist, ask a question or try something new.

A famous chef out here once remarked that most of her customers could be satisfied by a wine list with only two wines: Robert Mondavi Sauvignon Blanc and Cabernet Sauvignon.

My understanding for the reason that restaurants such as French Laundry raised their corkage fee to $50/bottle is that customers were walking in with KJ and the like.

Edited June 5, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[Craig Camp]

Mark - I am sure that it is near to impossible to sell not only Italian pinot grigio in your restaurant but Barolo and Barbaresco too. Because pinot grigio will not sell on your list is a reason not to stock it but not a reason to put down all pinot grigio. Like all wines - only a small percentage of the producers make great wines and most produce industrial swill.

[Carema]

I like Pinot Grigio and I like Merlot. there.... I have said it. It is like admitting you like Journey in the music world. In fact I think I will pour myself a glass of Merlot and listen to Escape and bask in unhipness of it all.

La Viarte Pinot Grigio from Friuli rocks the house. And also for Merlot- Gainey CV (2000 maybe) is all about love and making out with your current flame (here I stand with open arms...)

PS cat pee/ tomato vines. And are we talking fresh cat pee or something that has been clumped up in that weird clay stuff for days you really need to qualify it I think. And does all cat pee smell the same? Have you really sniffed at a cat box lately- or are we just talking about amoniac vagueries?

[John W.]

In addition to the above delicious sounding descriptors, I generally pick up some astringent flavor such as Bayer asprin on a lot of pinot grigios. I love getting my mom to drink stuff like that- c'mon mom, cat piss and aspirin, what's not to like. Personally, I don't like PG, but know a lot of people that do. While respecting Mark's view, we do sell one or two (Swanson PG does well).

[Mark Sommelier]

A famous chef out here once remarked that most of her customers could be satisfied by a wine list with only two wines: Robert Mondavi Sauvignon Blanc and Cabernet Sauvignon.

That's exactly why I don't sell any Mondavi wines.

[Mark Sommelier]

Because pinot grigio will not sell on your list is a reason not to stock it but not a reason to put down all pinot grigio. Like all wines - only a small percentage of the producers make great wines and most produce industrial swill.

That is true, Craig. I went back to delete my post, but found it had been quoted too many times. Let me apologize to all for the stridency.

[Craig Camp]

Because pinot grigio will not sell on your list is a reason not to stock it but not a reason to put down all pinot grigio. Like all wines - only a small percentage of the producers make great wines and most produce industrial swill.

That is true, Craig. I went back to delete my post, but found it had been quoted too many times. Let me apologize to all for the stridency.

No! thank you! - it gave us Italian wine nuts to get on our PG pulpit for a few minutes!

[viejo majadero]

The problem with Pinot Grigio is that a fresh tasting, food friendly grape has been marketed to death here in the US. The effect has been to turn many people away from the variety, not realizing there are many fine producers and products available.

John W -- I had the opportunity to taste the Swanson 2002 recently in NYC -- Lauber Imports -- and felt it was a wonderful mouthfull of wine. My compliments to Marco Capelli.

Viejo

[tommy]

The problem with Pinot Grigio is that a fresh tasting, food friendly grape has been marketed to death here in the US.  The effect has been to turn many people away from the variety, not realizing there are many fine producers and products available. 

blame the importers or the wine shops. god knows most of them carry only SM, and at 20 bucks a bottle give or take, people think it's "super special."

i'm always in search of reasonably priced pinot grigios. the simple fact is that they're hard to come by in a lot of areas in the US.

Edited June 9, 2003 by tommy (log)

[KatieLoeb]

Mark:

Not to spank you any further, but perhaps you should try some of the Pinot Grigio from Alto Adige (or Southern Tyrol, depending on whether you ask and Italian or an Austrian). I find those wines to be far more pleasant AND food friendly (also a criteria I seek in wines) than the industrial swill and Santa Margherita-esque crap. Tiefenbrunner makes a very tasty PG that sounds like it may be more to your tastes.

[Sparkitus]

My 2 Cents: Aside from not being a fan of Pinot Grigio with the exception of some of those wines advocated by others here, I am very reluctant to list them (I consult for a country French/Italian restaurant in Boston) and would certainly not consider pouring one by the glass for the simple reason that they would sell to the exclusion of other wines in such a disproportionate way. I am going to list one on the new list I'm working on, but it will have to be around $25 a bottle (and taste good, of course). There are simply too many other great little wines out there to have them be obliterated by the brand Pinot Grigio, and I have actually gotten raves from other restaurant wine buyers who applaud the resistance to pouring PG as an act of faith in the consumer to be willing to experiment with, say, a Godello from Spain.

[cdh]

Interesting... Never having heard of Godello from Spain, what sort of commentary do you intend to put on your list explaining what the wine is? How will you train your waiters to explain it? Will they be urged to sell it with certain dishes? (turning the conversation back towards wine-speak)

Or do you expect customers to randomly decide to try something new and unknown? Experimentation is generally something I do at home after an adventurous run to the wine shop. I'd rather not pay wine list mark-up to try something totally unknown, as that would cut much more deeply into the experimentation budget. (unless, that is, I know the wine-picker at the restaurant has impeccable taste that matches closely with my own preferences... but don't know anywhere like that, frankly)

Selling it by the glass or in bottles only? Price point?

Part of the magnetism of PG is, I think, that it is a known quantity. PG comes with the well known assumptions that it will be fruity, won't be oaky, will be somewhere between off-dry and dry, though not bone dry, etc. Godello may be the best thing since Alsatian rieslings, but how am I to know that from a wine list looking like this:

CHARDONNAY

(15 lines of blah blah blah)

RIESLING

(6 lines of blah blah blah)

OTHER WHITES

Malvasia XYZ (Napa) 2001 $xx.xx

Godello de ZYX (Spain) 1999 $xx.xx

Arneis YXZ (Piedmont) 2000 $xx.xx

Vinho Verde WXY (Portugal) $xx.xx

XZY Gentil (Alsace) 2000 $xx.xx

etc...

[ironmanstamford]

Just stumbled across the discussion on "cat pee." Just for the record there are far worse descriptors of wine than that one. In fact, I'm writing a book on the very subject, called, of all things, WineSpeak. Should anyone out there like to offer me some of the winetasting terms they think are funny, bizarre or outrageous, I'd love to have them (to include in my database if they're not already there). Any takers?

Thanks.

ironmanstamford

(whineman@optonline.net)

[Mark Sommelier]

Just stumbled across the discussion on "cat pee." Just for the record there are far worse descriptors of wine than that one. In fact, I'm writing a book on the very subject, called, of all things, WineSpeak. Should anyone out there like to offer me some of the winetasting terms they think are funny, bizarre or outrageous, I'd love to have them (to include in my database if they're not already there). Any takers?

Cat pee, and its derivative, cat piss, are two of my favorites. Other ways to say that a wine stinks include:

Foxy

Wet dog

Compost

"Interesting"

Sauvage

Animale

Rustique

My all time favorite wine term uttered to me by a salesman: "The wine is COMPELLING".

[KatieLoeb]

Should anyone out there like to offer me some of the winetasting terms they think are funny, bizarre or outrageous, I'd love to have them (to include in my database if they're not already there). Any takers?

Some of my personal favorites include:

Horseblanket

Sweat

Barnyard ("...it's a good honest smell - like MANURE" )

Fungal

Mowed Lawn

Citrus Pith or "Pithy"

Wet Gravel

Flagstone

Chalky (like Milk of Magnesia - YUM!)

Musky

Dirty Hot tub (to describe corked aromas)

I love "wet dog" as a descriptor. I can't remember what it was I tasted, but that was definitely what popped into my head

[tommy]

Just stumbled across the discussion on "cat pee." Just for the record there are far worse descriptors of wine than that one.

i do, in fact, recall my first experience with NZ SB. i was at Vong, in NYC. i ordered a NZ SB, out of shear ignorance (and probably because of the price point). i sampled the bottle, and jokingly said "this smell like cat piss" to my friend as the waiter was walking away. he stopped, and turned to us and said "it's supposed to". i figgered he was kidding, but soon realized that he wasn't. i do like that descriptor, and use it as often as possible, especially for the uninitiated, assuming they'll appreciate it as much as i did.

[beans]

Barnyard ("...it's a good honest smell - like MANURE"  )

*******

Mowed Lawn

I've had a barnyard pinot noir or bordeaux.

I've had a grassy sauvignon blanc from time to time too.

Some of my favourite descriptors include:

smelly socks

leather (chianti and rhone)

tobacco (cabs)

tar (cab franc and malbec)

ashphalt (say a '99 Canon la Gaffeliere)

lead pencil (bordeaux)

Can't say I 've tasted asphalt, tar or smelly socks, per se. I've chewed a pencing when I was a kid in grade school....