McDonald's Brings Back Old Sauces

[Holly Moore]

Paraphrased and editorialized from this week's Nation's Restaurant News...

McDonald's, as do all corporations from time to time especially when their sales suck, is going back to basics including returning to the original versions of their Big Mac and Tartar sauces.

Supposedly the Big Mac sauce changed approximately 10 years ago when McD's was being beat up about cooking with animal fats (25% suet in the fry shortening) and other high cholesterol product transgressions.

No info as to when the tartar sauce was changed. The sauce used in the Filet 'o Fish, when first introduced was very labor intensive and had a short shelf life. It was the colaboration between McD founder Ray Krok and the then executive chef at the Conrad Hilton hotel in Chicago. The sauce was delivered to the stores in two separate #10 Cans. One the maynoaise base, the other the pickle mix. The sauce for the day was prepared each morning. Combine the two cans and add freshly diced bermuda onion. Any sauce not used that day had to be tossed because the fresh onion overpowered the sauce after 24 hours. My suspicion is as McDonald's grew and the green eyeshade types had more influence, the decision was made to switch to a purely canned product. "Tartar sauce is tartar sauce."

The other change to the Filet o' Fish is that McDonald's stopped steaming the buns and switched to toasting. In the creation of the Filet o' Fish, everyone prefered a soft, fluffy steamed bun over a toasted/caramelized bun which would have been much easier to prepare and would not have required a separate piece of equipment. The steaming also reduced the holding bin time of finished sandwiches. And the steamers were high maintenance, got clogged and broke down quite often.

(There were few things less tasty than a Filet o' Fish that had been held longer than 10 minutes. I only ordered the Filet o' Fish during rush hours when I knew they were turning over fast.)

Again I suspect that the bottom line folks out-voted the quality oriented types (those that were left), and got rid of the steamers and switched to a much easier to produce toasted bun.

[pjs]

The other change to the Filet o' Fish is that McDonald's stopped steaming the buns and switched to toasting.

Speaking of steamed buns, does White Castle still steam theirs? On request? Like ketchup?

BTW fish sandwiches seem to be making a comeback in the fast food arena. Checkers ran a big promo with them down here in the south last month. They sucked compared to the McD item I remember from years ago. I'm afraid to try the current offering from McD. Some memories are better left alone.

PJ

[hjshorter]

McD's Filet of Fish used to be the only fast food sandwich I liked. A few years ago, I stopped ordering them because they stopped tasting as good - not as fresh. Interesting to know that the sauce was put together in-house. The geniuses who stopped steaming the buns probably oversaw the reformulation of the "shakes" from actual dairy products to chemical goo around the same time.

Kentucky Fried Chicken (before they morphed into KFC to avoid the toxic word "fried" in the title ) used to make their biscuits by using a biscuit mix and fresh buttermilk. Their coleslaw was also made in house by chopping cabbage, carrots and onions. I wonder if they have moved to prepackaged product too.

[Andrew Fenton]

The geniuses who stopped steaming the buns probably oversaw the reformulation of the "shakes" from actual dairy products to chemical goo around the same time.

McDonald's shakes are still dairy; for a debunking of the "chemical goo" urban legend, follow this link, at snopes.com.

The shake ingredients are:

Whole milk, sucrose, nonfat milk solids, corn syrup solids, cream, guar gum, sodium hexametaphosphate, carrageenan, imitation vanilla flavor, cellulose gum.

Sodium hexametaphosphate is the only scary-looking one on the list, but I have no idea what it actually is. Interestingly, McD's shakes aren't made with ice cream: rather, they use a prepackaged "shake mix" that's blended with syrup and milk.

[Holly Moore]

We were testing veg oil shakes as far back as the late 60's when I worked McD new products. They were wretched then. Had a slimey mouthfeel and a chemical aftertaste. Technology has improved since them, I'm sure. It would have to to make them even a bit palatable.

[rstarobi]

"Let the fools have their tar-tar sauce."

Has McDonalds's food become more dry in the last few years? The burgers used to be at least somewhat juicy back in the day.

Only fast food sauce I really enjoy is the mayo/ketchup blend on the Whopper.

[Fat Guy]

I believe sodium hexametaphosphate is a water softener.

And I do think McDonald's burgers have become drier. I believe this is because on the whole they sit around longer before being served. McDonald's at some point switched over to an on-demand system where they have all the patties sitting in racks and drying out, and they make each sandwich as it is requested. As I recall, back in the day, it was more like they cooked the patties, made a bunch of sandwiches, and sold them on a rolling basis. So you could always get something fresh if you ordered whatever was up.

[Holly Moore]

A bit more McHistory.

Pre Burger King "Have It Your Way," McDonald's did what they could to discourage special orders. They were grudgingly permitted but clandestinly handled. Whenever a customer asked for a "burger, no pickle," the order taker would write it down on an order form and pass it back to the grill man yelling "Grill." Logic was that other customers wouldn't know what a "grill" was so they wouldn't realize that they, too, could order burgers as they liked them. The word "special" was not in an order-taker's vocabulary for fear it would encourage mass orders for customized burgers, defeating the McDonald's production system and slowing down service.

Back then, the McKnowledgable fast food eaters would always order a custom burger, guarenteeing that said burger was totally fresh, prepared with the next batch of burgers to come of the grill.

I was Regional Marketing Manager for Burger King's Metropolitan NY market when "Have It Your Way" was introduced. There were literally tears of joy in a few of our eyes when the agency presented "Have It Your Way." Finally we were agressively taking on McDonald's. "Have it your waY" has to have been one of the most successful fast food, if not overall, advertising campaigns ever.

[alacarte]

What kind of fish is used in the Filet O'Fish? Was asked by my tiny niece over lunch one day at Mickey D's. Told her there was a fish called "O-Fish," and that's what the sandwich was made of. Probably will rot in hell for that.

[Holly Moore]

The official corporate answers was and maybe still is "North Atlantic White Fish." I pretty sure it was cod, but it could have been whatever landed in the nets.

[Andrew Fenton]

What kind of fish is used in the Filet O'Fish? Was asked by my tiny niece over lunch one day at Mickey D's. Told her there was a fish called "O-Fish," and that's what the sandwich was made of.

I believe the O-Fish is closely related to the Gefilte...

[pixelchef]

I once ordered numerous Filet O-Fish sandwiches and gave them to my girlfriend; thus giving her multiple O's.

[pjs]

I did a little research in the home library. The Filet-O-Fish was originally conceived in the early 60’s by Lou Groen, a franchisee in Cincinnati, who believed his mediocre sales had a lot to do with not having something to offer his predominant catholic neighborhood on Fridays. After much begging and pleading, corporate allowed him to market a fish sandwich of his own invention. It was halibut in a pancake batter and it improved his sales markedly.

The eventual corporate version--Holly’s right, it was cod--took over a year to develop and was largely the result of a lot of hard labor by someone who didn’t even work for McDonald’s. Bud Sweeney was employed by Gorton’s and it took him over nine months to come up with a product McD corporate could be satisfied with. In return Gorton’s initially got all of McDonald’s fish business.

According to John F. Love's excellent 1986 book "McDonald's, Behind the Arches", the tartar sauce came from chef Paul Burnet of Chicago’s Palmer House Hotel.

PJ

[alacarte]

Holly and pjs, thanks for that bit of culinary history/pop culture lore.

Very interesting!

[Joe H]

This is a great thread. Some of what I'm about to mention has been posted by me before but there was never any response. Either on here or on Chowhound.

There is not a McDonald's on the face of the earth that has their original french fries. The last time these were served was in the original Des Plaines store but this was stopped in its last two or three years of operation. Still, they were available there up until about 1980.

The McDonald's museum in Downey, CA has numerous photographs along with the recipe for these. The McDonald's next to it is original and, I believe, #3 or #4. I also believe it is the only surviving McDonald's with the original Golden Arches.

There IS ONE PLACE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WHERE YOU CAN STILL GET THE ORIGINAL McDONALD'S FRENCH FRIES: Dick's Drive In in Spokane, Washington. This is NOT related to the Seattle based chain but an independent featured in USA Today about eight or ten years ago as the second highest grossing independent fast food restaurant in America behind the Varsity in Atlanta. I stopped there one day when driving by (like the Downey McDonald's this still looks the way it did when it opened in the late '50's) and at the window ordered a double cheeseburger, fries and a chocolate shake. The shake used frozen custard, chocolate syrup and milk and tasted remarkably familiar. The french fries were unbelievable-a memory that I thought I would never experience again. They WERE McDonald's original fries. The cheeseburger was good but not the same as the original.

Anyway, I had to find out anything I could about this drive in that served McDonald's original fries and what seemed to be their original shakes. I met the owner who then was about 80 years old. His story was incredible: he had tried to buy a McDonald's franchise in the late '50's and for whatever reason was turned down. He travelled to southern California and took a job working in a McDonald's there and after three or four weeks returned to Spokane and eventually opened his own drive in which for whatever reason was called "Panda.". Serving two parts of what McDonald's use to advertise as "Forty Five Cents For A Three Course Meal." (hamburger, fries and shake). He prepared his hamburger differently using cheese whiz instead of a slice of cheese because he said he liked it better. Somewhere in time he chaned the name of Panda to Dick's.

The potatoes were stored in a dark room in a cinderblock building behind the restaurant for two weeks. Then they were peeled, blanched and hung in a basket on a wall overnight. Then they were fried in a mixture of 70% animal fat (I took notes).

Dick's has two walk up windows. Over the years I have now been there three times. Each time has been around lunchtime. Each time there have been as many as 75 or more people clustered or lined up around the windows, waiting to order or waiting for their food. Three or four blocks down the street is a "real" McDonald's. On my first two trips (I live outside of Washington, D. C.) I intentonally drove by the McDonald's to compare its business. Neither time were there more than five or six cars in the parking lot while Dick's-up the street-had a line almost a block long waiting to turn into its lot.

Once upon a time McDonald's had good food. In the fall of 1966 or 1967 they started an advertising campaign to try and convince people that their new frozen fries were an improvement. Although their growth was unprecedented, for me, that day began their sacrifice of good food for profit.

Dick's Drive In in Spokane, Washington and In 'n Out Burger

are proof that if you still do things the same way that you started out the line will never go away.

They are the BEST french fries on earth. Dick's even still has "dunk cups" which, like the original McDonald's, they serve cold ketchup in.

[elyse]

I think my most missed Mc Donald's item is the fried apple pie. They were still selling them in Europe in '96.

[pixelchef]

I actually really loved McDonald's pizza when it was around. I miss that pizza.

[Holly Moore]

According to John F. Love's excellent 1986 book "McDonald's, Behind the Arches", the tartar sauce came from chef Paul Burnet of Chicago’s Palmer House Hotel.

PJ

Right city, right chain, wrong Hilton. Two out of three isn't all that bad for me.

I think my most missed Mc Donald's item is the fried apple pie. They were still selling them in Europe in '96.

The only thing that achieves a higher temperature than napalm is the filling of a McDonald's Hot Apple pie. Probably ended up being de-menued by the legal department.

[elyse]

I wish it were that good a reason, Holly. They did it because people didn't want to eat fried food. The baked version (equal fat, I believe) was better for marketing. SUCKERS!

[Joe H]

Does anyone on this board beside myself remember what McDonald's really used to taste like? Once again I am really surprised at the response or the absence thereof. I suppose Red Barn, Golden Point, AutoBurger, Fat Boy, Ameche's and others were before most of this board's time. Sorry. I thought a few of you went further back. Perhaps having actually eaten the food rather than reading about it.

But there is a point here, a very real point: this is why Dick's in Spokane and In 'n Out are so successful. Most people have no idea how a real hamburger and french fries should taste. In the '50's and early '60's EVERY fast food place had decent fresh food even Burger Chef, Hot Shoppes, JR, Geno's and Merrill's. Today almost nobody prepares food this way. Frozen potatoes, frozen hamburger, shakes from a mix, super sizing this: all homoginized, flavorless bulk that many born after the late '60's might think is good. Even Wendy's is good if you add enough toppings. But how many people ever tasted a Wendy's burger in Columbus in the early '70's? They were legitimately good, then. Just as McDonald's fries were the world's best. Prior to '66 or '67.

Anyway, I think I've just dated this board.

[twoshoes4u]

OMG! I stopped having Big Mac Attacks approximately 10 years ago because they suddenly stopped tasting so very good. I thought this was advancing middle age and the dreaded loss of taste.

[awbrig]

I think that McDonalds fries are still good...Some McDonalds are better than others but in general, as long as the fries are hot I still like them...

[Joe H]

Unless you find yourself in Spokane one day you have no idea what you missed. All of my friends and myself were so mad at McDonald's for doing away with their old, fresh french fries that we boycotted them for months. Even when we went back we spent more time talking about what they used to be than what we were regretfully eating. If anyone reading this is anywhere near Spokane, Washington in the next few weeks please stop at Dick's Drive In, order several bags of french fries and, please, report back here on what you think of them.

The three hundred mile drive from Seattle is just a short hop for what are the best that ever were. And I say this with all due respect to Brussels, arguably the city with the only serious competitors.

[Holly Moore]

Does anyone on this board beside myself remember what McDonald's really used to taste like?  Once again I am really surprised at the response or the absence thereof.  I suppose Red Barn, Golden Point, AutoBurger, Fat Boy, Ameche's and others were before most of this board's time.  Sorry.  I thought a few of you went further back.  Perhaps having actually eaten the food rather than reading about it.

But there is a point here, a very real point:  this is why Dick's in Spokane and In 'n Out are so successful.  Most people have no idea how a real hamburger and french fries should taste.  In the '50's and early '60's EVERY fast food place had decent fresh food even Burger Chef, Hot Shoppes, JR, Geno's  and Merrill's.  Today almost nobody prepares food this way.  Frozen potatoes, frozen hamburger, shakes from a mix, super sizing this:  all homoginized, flavorless bulk that many born after the late '60's might think is good.  Even Wendy's is good if you add enough toppings.  But how many people ever tasted a Wendy's burger in Columbus in the early '70's?  They were legitimately good, then.  Just as McDonald's fries were the world's best.  Prior to '66 or '67.

Anyway, I think I've just dated this board.

You left out Wetson's - my second summer restaurant job after washing dishes at the 5 Star Diner.

I think it is the freshness of the finished product more than freshness of the ingredients that makes the difference and that has been lost.

I was one of the two people running McD's conversion from fresh to frozen hamburger patties. The ones we settled on; you couldn't tell the difference. I agree on the fries - the fresh ones were better.

When McDonald's started there was the 10 to the pound burger, the 4" hamburger bun, mustard, ketchup and pickle. There were four sandwiches on the menu - hamburger, cheeseburger, double hamburger and double cheese burger. All built with the same patty and the same bun. As I remember, batches of 16 at a time, as many as four batches on the grill at one time. Finished burgers were always turning over, always fresh cooked off the grill.

Every time a new product was added to the menu production got a little harder to plan. The Filet o' Fish and the Big Mac were relatively easily absorbed, but still increased the complexity of the operation. The Filet o' Fish required a separate fryer, a steamer for the buns and tartar sauce. The Big Mac required a second bun, a special toaster to air toast the center portion of the bun, shredded lettuce and Big Mac Sauce. Also a collar in which to assemble the Big Mac. A grillman's life was no longer simple.

Then came hot apple pies, the Quarter Pounders, a series of failed Whopper rip-offs, McNuggets, salads, the Egg McMuffin which evolved into a full breakfast line-up, McRibs and just about anything else that could be fried or grilled. What started out as a streamlined essentially single sandwich operation has evolved into a full menu restaurant trying to be all things to all people.

What got lost in the process was the focus of production that kept everything fresh and hot off the grill. There are now too many different sandwiches and entrees to keep track of. Too many to anticipate production. Too many to adhere to 5 or 10 minute holding times. Then, to compound an already screwed up back of the house, Burger King made "Have It Your Way" an issue and McDonald's had to figure out a way to work customization into their operational system.

Fresh and hot off the grill was/is no longer an option.

[pjs]

Does anyone on this board beside myself remember what McDonald's really used to taste like?

I remember what McDonald's tasted like circa 1970.

Holly, your recollection of Wetson's brought back repressed memories. Shame on you.

Down here in in the southeast we have a great fast-food chain called "Steak 'n' Shake". When you order a burger they flatten a ball of fresh ground beef on the grill--made to order. They also serve onion rings made with actual onion rings. I'm surprised I haven't seen them mentioned here before.

PJ