Liquor Control Board modernizing?

[Craig Camp]

Liquor Control Board tries modest modernizing

[mrbigjas]

"I think we can use our purchasing power to bring great deals for consumers."

He keeps saying this and I keep not seeing it. Low- to medium-priced wines are still significantly more expensive here than elsewhere. I'd always heard that high-end wines were cheaper here because the state only marks them up the same percentage as the cheap stuff, as compared to a retail establishment which can and will mark up high end wines more. So when the new store opened at 12th & Chestnut, I wrote down some prices of the high end stuff, for a little comparison. I don't mean the 1995 Petrus they had in there for $600, but more like the Figeac and Lafite and Stag's Leap and whatnot. About two minutes of research on line showed that they were right in line with everyone else, not cheaper at all. So my quest to find anything positive about the PLCB is still unfulfilled, as it has been since the last time I found something to like about them: back in 1999, when they didn't mark up all the champagne for the 2000 new year.

Also if the guy is a real wine lover, I wonder if he realizes--and I wonder if he can do anything about it even if he does know--the fact that all the stores are like 100 degrees inside. This is especially noticeable at the "superstores" like the one at 12th & Chestnut, which is like a sauna half the time--lordy be, there's some expensive wine sitting there in the sweltering heat.

I'm still going to Jersey whenever possible, and DC when I'm down there to visit the in-laws...

[KatieLoeb]

I'd never buy ANY really valuable wines from the PLCB (for my personal use - I have NO choice as far as ordering for my restaurants is concerned) no matter how well priced, precisely because of the storage issues you mentioned. If the stores are that hot and they are presumably air-conditioned for the comfort of customers and employees, how hot do you think the warehouses get in the middle of July? I don't know for sure, but I certainly wouldn't risk my hard-earned cash on it. I prefer to buy my higher end stuff from retailers that I know understand the concept of proper temperature control both during transport and at retail.

On the other hand, there are some mid-priced and less expensive wines that do come through the PLCB that are a real deal because of their buying power. Last summer I bought a case of Terre di Galatrona that was a second label Super Tuscan at about $14.00/bottle. It was practically criminal at that price. The PLCB bought up boatloads of it and passed the savings on the consumer, presumably because they either didn't realize what they had, or only mark up according to a set formula. I think it's a matter of being judicious about what one purchases through the PLCB and what one will travel to - ahem - other nearby states to purchase. Finding a few really good wine retailers that you trust to hook you up in lieu of the PLCB is always recommended. I buy from Moore Brothers in NJ and DE (my former employers), Corkscrewed in Cherrry Hill, NJ and Bin 604 when I'm in the Baltimore area.

[mrbigjas]

On the other hand, there are some mid-priced and less expensive wines that do come through the PLCB that are a real deal because of their buying power.

See my problem is that overall I'm pretty unedumacated when it comes to wine, so I don't know deals like that when I see them... I'm learning, but more slowly than would be ideal (ideal would be that I instantly know everything with zero effort expended on my part).

[KatieLoeb]

See my problem is that overall I'm pretty unedumacated when it comes to wine, so I don't know deals like that when I see them...  I'm learning, but more slowly than would be ideal (ideal would be that I instantly know everything with zero effort expended on my part).

Although I know more than "the average bear" about wine (one would presume I have to in order to do my job), most of the great deals I've found at the PLCB I was directed to by persons far more knowledgeable than myself. You see, the key to expending little or no effort is to surround oneself with folks that are even smarter than you!

The other option than requires a little effort is to take some wine classes in your spare time (PM me - I can recommend a few good ones in the Philly area) and expand your knowledge base that way. Also, read the local newspaper wine columns, and read regional or national wine magazines to see what's getting rated as "good/excellent value". More often than not, the actual retail prices are lower than the MSRP that is listed in the article. I happen to like Wine & Spirits magazine because it's not too esoteric or high falutin' and the articles are quite user friendly, even for the average consumer.

[Andrew Fenton]

The only way the LCB will ever "modernize" is to cease to exist.

Of course that'll never happen-- there are too many interests vested in keeping the system as it is-- but a good start would be to allow privately owned wine stores in PA, along with beer stores.

I visited the Chestnut St. "superstore" for the first time on Saturday: we'd decided on the spur of the moment to have dinner at Effie's, and while waiting for a table, went to get a bottle of wine. Jas, I think I had a very similar experience to yours: like you, I noticed that it was HOT in there. I'll bet that's not so good for the $80 bottles of wine in the back.

But the biggest problem from my perspective is the level of service, an issue that that article hardly addressed. The fact is that for somebody like me, who knows a little bit (but definitely not a lot) about wine, the expanded selection of middle to high-end wines is useless. I'm not going to spend $40 on a bottle of wine that I don't know anything about; and I have real doubts that a state store, however "super", will ever be able to get employees who are knowledgeable and articulate enough to talk about their wines.

By contrast, Moore Brothers is not only cheaper, but more importantly, run by a bunch of wine nerds! That makes all the difference: the first time I went in there, and Greg Moore spent fifteen minutes telling me all about a ten dollar bottle of wine, I knew I'd hit someplace special. If I could have that experience without having to cross the bridge to Jersey, even if it cost a little more, I'd be delighted. But it's not gonna happen until there's some major structural change.

[herbacidal]

okay, not that i'm totally on the side of PLCB, especially since I do live in Jersey, but...

i do recall a good experience with the people that run the shop in old city, on 2nd.

personable, helpful, seemingly somewhat knowledgeable.

i also recall a sunday inquirer magazine article on the pleasantries of one of the main line state stores.

narberth perhaps?

the few times i've been in the chestnut superstore, i didn't notice a particular warmth. that being said, it was warmer than, let's say total wine in cherry hill.

methinks newman has a herculean task in front of him because of entrenched interests and other things. he has done pretty well so far, i'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as being able to succeed over the long term.

the problem with that is that because of all the obstacles, that long term is probably like a decade or more.

last but not least, i do recall a letter to the editor after Phila Weekly's article on PLCB modernizing indicating that the prices and selection were actually better than some of the prices he was experiencing in his living area, which i believe to be washington state, but not sure. at any rate, currently costco's stores there (where they are headquartered) and elsewhere offer superb selection and prices, from what i hear.

maybe i should separate this into 5 or 7 posts to up my count, like tommy.

[herbacidal]

addendum to above:

Washington state is not the competition as far as liquor and wine, as NJ, DE, NY, and OH are.

compared to them (not so sure about OH and NY firsthand), PA definitely has a ways to go.

i think the ideal of a government run system can be better for the consumer.

i do think it's a herculean task also, but a slightly less difficult one than privatizing.

i think privatizing will be problematic because of in part, the leglislature, which is horrible, but that would be yet another issue.

[mrbigjas]

methinks newman has a herculean task in front of him because of entrenched interests and other things.  he has done pretty well so far, i'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as being able to succeed over the long term.

the problem with that is that because of all the obstacles, that long term is probably like a decade or more.

Yeah, you're right, and being the borderline pinko that I am, I wish it were better, and am rooting for the guy. But until then I'm gonna sit here and bitch on web boards and usenet until ... well, until I feel better.

hmm..... hasn't happened yet.

[KatieLoeb]

Yeah, you're right, and being the borderline pinko that I am, I wish it were better, and am rooting for the guy.  But until then I'm gonna sit here and bitch on web boards and usenet until ... well, until I feel better.

hmm..... hasn't happened yet.

Jas:

Get thee to New Jersey ASAP!!!

[porkpa]

Its mentioned that Jonathan Newman faces a herculean task in revamping and making PLCB more efficient and user friendly. I hope he succeeds, but I would change the word herculean to impossible.

In addition to facing the myriad of bureaucratic details involved with dealing with a state controlled business, he also has to deal with a quite powerful union of state liquor store employees.

I happen to know Newman from another non wine related business. I can assure you that his motivation is there. He is a wine lover and truly wants to see Pennsylvania stores selling a great assortment of quality wines at competitive prices. Having said all of this, the issue might be moot. Newman is and comes from a strong Republican family. I believe his position is a political appointment. Even though he has done IMO a very good job, the Democrats are newly in power and have already begun placing their own people in other positions throughout the state. This might not be the case with Newman. However the possibility, if not the likelihood exists that his days could be numbered.

Alas. Such is politics.

Porkpa

[herbacidal]

Its mentioned that Jonathan Newman faces a herculean task in revamping and making PLCB more efficient and user friendly. I hope he succeeds, but I would change the word herculean to impossible.

In addition to facing the myriad of bureaucratic details involved with dealing with a state  controlled business, he also has to deal with a quite powerful union of state liquor store employees.

I happen to know Newman from another non wine related business. I can assure you that his motivation is there. He is a wine lover and truly wants to see Pennsylvania stores selling a great assortment of quality wines at competitive prices. Having said all of this, the issue might be moot. Newman is and comes from a strong Republican family. I believe his position is a political appointment. Even though he has done IMO a very good job, the Democrats are newly in power and have already begun placing their own people in other positions throughout the state. This might not be the case with Newman.  However the possibility, if not the likelihood exists that his days could be numbered.

Alas. Such is politics.

Porkpa

yes, the state legislature is particularly stodgy and immobile in their ways.

i would say that privatizing it would be impossible.

that revamping it is herculean, and just slightly less impossible.

[mrbigjas]

 

and now?

 

Why I oughtta...

This morning was a trip to Kreuz's Market in Lockhart, 30 miles out of our way each way from Austin to Dallas. Worth every second, of course. In the true Holly Moore tradition, of course I took a pic of the butcher paper with a big pile of brisket, a sausage, a bottle of Big Red, etc. on the table. I'll post it when I get home.

Considering the types of food I eat down here, wine hasn't really been in the picture, so I'll bow out now...

[Rail Paul]

Its mentioned that Jonathan Newman faces a herculean task in revamping and making PLCB more efficient and user friendly. I hope he succeeds, but I would change the word herculean to impossible.

In addition to facing the myriad of bureaucratic details involved with dealing with a state  controlled business, he also has to deal with a quite powerful union of state liquor store employees.

I happen to know Newman from another non wine related business. I can assure you that his motivation is there. He is a wine lover and truly wants to see Pennsylvania stores selling a great assortment of quality wines at competitive prices. Having said all of this, the issue might be moot. Newman is and comes from a strong Republican family. I believe his position is a political appointment. Even though he has done IMO a very good job, the Democrats are newly in power and have already begun placing their own people in other positions throughout the state. This might not be the case with Newman.  However the possibility, if not the likelihood exists that his days could be numbered.

Alas. Such is politics.

Porkpa

yes, the state legislature is particularly stodgy and immobile in their ways.

i would say that privatizing it would be impossible.

that revamping it is herculean, and just slightly less impossible.

The LCB employee union is very strong, and it's blocked several previous attempts to improve customer service. There are very good, well paying, lifetime jobs

Many stores did not have self-service until the early 1990s. You took a number and waited to be served, and you couldn't browse.

[fresco]

Government-run liquor stores are a mixed blessing, as drinkers in nine of 10 Canadian provinces can attest. In Ontario, for instance, a customer wishing to purchase a case of a particular wine is likely to be met with goofy bewilderment, rather than the "You bet. Can I carry that out to your car?" that one would expect in a private establishment.

Still, the uniformity of these stores does mean that it is usually possible to buy acceptable wine (or whiskey or brandy) in even the most remote places. It's kinda like the Canadian approach to health care, education, or most things, which levels out regional differences while giving excellence a wide berth.

But it must be said that the threat of privatization has spiffed up stores, selection and to a limited extent, service, at least in Toronto.

[mrbigjas]

Well, today's paper has this article:

Inquirer article about the LCB

So, let me get this straight: to keep people in PA, instead of expanding their wine selection, storing it properly, making it more reasonably priced across the board, and eliminating the bullshit beer restrictions, they're going to sell half-gallons of liquor to people at the state borders for cheap, all while maintaining their neopuritan attitude toward alcohol in general. mm hmm. That makes sense.

[herbacidal]

So, let me get this straight: to keep people in PA, instead of expanding their wine selection, storing it properly, making it more reasonably priced across the board, and eliminating the bullshit beer restrictions, they're going to sell half-gallons of liquor to people at the state borders for cheap, all while maintaining their neopuritan attitude toward alcohol in general.  mm hmm.  That makes sense.

now see, i think this is a very good move.

there's only so much newman can do. he has to fight battles inside and outside the LCB.

First there's the unions. Then the state legislature. i'm sure there's others i'm not aware of or can't think of right now.

i think all your suggestions make sense and are eminently logical. but i think they are wholly doomed to failure in the current framework.

a move like this will enable a transition towards changing things overall.

i applaud newman for plotting a course towards a better working system, but it will take time.

[mrbigjas]

now see, i think this is a very good move.

(...)

i applaud newman for plotting a course towards a better working system, but it will take time.

In a way I agree with you--I also think Newman has made some nice changes already, and I think he's the best thing that's happened to the LCB in a long long time.

But see, it's just that I like to rant about the LCB. It's one of my few pleasures in life, along with sunday lunch at a pho place and getting drunked up on Jim Beam and Pabst at Bob & Barbara's.

Edited May 23, 2003 by mrbigjas (log)

[KatieLoeb]

...and getting drunked up on Jim Beam and Pabst at Bob & Barbara's...

Ahhh. The infamous Bob & Barbara's "Happy Meal"!

[mrbigjas]

...and getting drunked up on Jim Beam and Pabst at Bob & Barbara's...

Ahhh. The infamous Bob & Barbara's "Happy Meal"!

Yeah, the special. It's a beautiful thing, gettin all liquored up on about $12 tops with a decent tip. And they will let you order in decent bar food from Tritone across the street--or if you wanna bring in some of the densest vegetarian food you'll ever eat, you can bring in a sandwich from "gourmet to go," the takeout place next door. It's a very south of south scenario that is repeated many times every week, and it's a beautiful thing.

Speaking of this neighborhood, though, I'm still waiting to smell ribs when I walk by Ron's... I'm stoppin in the first day I smell 'em and seeing what's up.

Edited May 24, 2003 by mrbigjas (log)

[Mummer]

PA lcb... the biggest customer of wines and spirits in the world...has managed to FUBAR.

We all suffer!