cellar questions

["T"]

My concrete bunker where I store my wines are a constant 18 degrees C all year round. Winter, summer, morning, afternoon, evening. Is this to high or is it still acceptable?

[dlc]

I have always been in the camp that says consistency is much more important that absolute temperature. This temp. may allow your wines to age a little faster than a cooler temp. I think that this is especially true for white wines. I think that the relative humidity is more important than the absolute temp. Some of the biggest disasters in improperly stored wine I have seen is because of cork degradation because of lack of humidity.

[Craig Camp]

18 C. (64 F.) would certainly be considered good storage conditions - if it is constant. 13 C. (55 F.) is usually listed as the perfect storage temperature, but this is necessary only for very long aging periods. The lower the temperature the slower the maturation. Temperature change also speeds maturation. Some proponents of the biodynamic system say for perfect maturation you need some slight temperature variation that is in line with the seasons. What dlc says about humidity is correct. There is always debate about everything surrounding wine.

All this being said - Your cellar conditions sound excellent.

Edited March 29, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

While that temperature will not damage your wine, I think it will shorten the time it takes your wines to mature by at least 2 years. And that is for wines that drink at about ten years. For long agers like first and second growth Bordeaux, you are doing yourself a great disservice by keeping those wines stored at that temperature unless you want them to be ready to drink more quickly.

[Craig Camp]

While that temperature will not damage your wine, I think it will shorten the time it takes your wines to mature by at least 2 years. And that is for wines that drink at about ten years. For long agers like first and second growth Bordeaux, you are doing yourself a great disservice by keeping those wines stored at that temperature unless you want them to be ready to drink more quickly.

Steve there are many people who disagree with you on this and feel that 55 F. was an arbitrary level set by chance. Many experts also believe that when it is too cold the maturation process is essentially arrested. Cool, constant temperature produces good results for many people.

Wine Cellar Conditions

Wine Storage Conditions

[tommy]

Many experts also believe that when it is too cold the maturation process is essentially arrested. Cool, constant temperature produces good results for many people.

but have they PM'd you?

[Craig Camp]

Don't forget the point of aging wine is to bring all the aspects of the wine into a unique harmony. It is not a contest to see how long you can keep the bottle without it spoiling. If a wine reaches that harmony in 8 instead of 10 years this is not a fault as long as the the wine reaches peak complexity.

[dlc]

Don't forget the point of aging wine is to bring all the aspects of the wine into a unique harmony. It is not a contest to see how long you can keep the bottle without it spoiling. If a wine reaches that harmony in 8 instead of 10 years this is not a fault as long as the the wine reaches peak complexity.

This is one of the greatest joys of cellaring wine. The serendipity of opening a bottle to check on its progress and finding a wine of great depth and complexity when all the "experts" are advising you to wait on it.

P.S. A gentleman who used to be one of the premier collectors in the US used to keep his older whites in a section of his cellar that was 45 degrees.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Craig - I read those links and I thought they agreed with what I posted . Anyway, I gave my advice based on my own experiences with wines from a friend's cellar. I have a friend who cellars wine in his home in Great Neck and he keeps the temparture at 5 degrees constant. His wines are very slow maturing, and when he opens them they are amazingly fresh tasting. Like they were bought yesterday.

I think the real trick, and neither of your links addresses this issue, is that the key issue is what type of wine you are cellaring? All they mean when they say "proper temperature" is that the temperature will allow the wine to mature according to its own physiological timetable. For example, let's say that 2000 Latour is a 20-35 year wine. The goal is to store is at a temperature that will not advance the aging process any, or will not slow it down so it takes longer then 35 years. I promise you that the colder the temperature, the longer the maturation process will take, and your wines will be fresh tasting.

As for humidity, all that happens when you don't have the proper humidity is your ullage increases more quickly then it should. I forget how much the ullage increases under even perfect conditions. But I have found that bottles of wine that have been stored under proper temperature conditions but below preferred humidity, and are well below the shoulder as a result, can be fabulous. About 5 years ago I bought a few cases of assorted Bordeaux from the 50's and 60's that came out of an English country cellar. When I got them the fills were horrible. But every single bottle has been fabulous and the wines have matured perfectly.

[Craig Camp]

As for humidity, all that happens when you don't have the proper humidity is your ullage increases more quickly then it should. I forget how much the ullage increases under even perfect conditions. But I have found that bottles of wine that have been stored under proper temperature conditions but below preferred humidity, and are well below the shoulder as a result, can be fabulous. About 5 years ago I bought a few cases of assorted Bordeaux from the 50's and 60's that came out of an English country cellar. When I got them the fills were horrible. But every single bottle has been fabulous and the wines have matured perfectly.

Buying low ullage bottles is at best a risky proposition. This is why ullage is always an issue mentioned in auction catalogs. You were lucky.

I promise you that the colder the temperature, the longer the maturation process will take, and your wines will be fresh tasting.

I believe that's what I said, "55 F. is usually listed as the perfect storage temperature, but this is necessary only for very long aging periods. The lower the temperature the slower the maturation."

First of all the question was if a cellar with a constant 18 C. is acceptable - it is. Will the wines mature faster than at 13 C.? Obviously yes. Your assumption is that a the wine will taste better simply because it takes longer to reach the maturation point. So yes, an individual wine may reach maturity at 15 years old instead of 18 years old - but what does this matter as long as the quality is the same?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I was trying to point out the difference between storing wines at the wrong humidity and what happens, versus loss of wine due to it seeping through corks due to excessive temperatures. I was at a tasting this week with Clive Coates and we were talking about the difference in quality of mature wines that come from British cellars as opposed to U.S. cellars. British wine typically tastes 5 years younger then American imports, even with moderately bad ullage. That's because the wines were always stored at the right temperature and never heated in any way. Most ullage issues in the U.S. are a result of cooking the wines.

[Craig Camp]

Most of the differences that occur between wines in the UK and wines in the USA comes from poor shipping, warehousing and retail storage in the USA - not from poor storage in personal wine cellars. Cellar damage is the least of a wine's worries when coming to the USA as the damage is already done by the time you get your wine home. Most ullage problems in the USA come from (as you correctly note) from exposure to excessive temperature. Ullage from low humidity takes many, many years to occur.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Most of the differences that occur between wines in the UK and wines in the USA comes from poor shipping, warehousing and retail storage in the USA - not from poor storage in personal wine cellars.

This is just not true. Collectors played a huge part in contributing to cooked and low ullage wines. Few people had good storage until the last ten years. Many many wine collectors used to keep their wines stored in their "cool" basement in their suburban homes. I am sure there were many days when the temperature got near 70 and people didn't realize it. In fact I have friends who still do that. They won't spring for temperature/humidity control because they claim their passive cellar is good enough. Of course, this doesn't negate the fact that the importers and retailers were slow to adapt to a temperature controlled standard and that many wines were ruined. But this is why I buy my older wines almost exclusively in Europe.

[Craig Camp]

Most of the differences that occur between wines in the UK and wines in the USA comes from poor shipping, warehousing and retail storage in the USA - not from poor storage in personal wine cellars.

This is just not true. Collectors played a huge part in contributing to cooked and low ullage wines. Few people had good storage until the last ten years. Many many wine collectors used to keep their wines stored in their "cool" basement in their suburban homes. I am sure there were many days when the temperature got near 70 and people didn't realize it. In fact I have friends who still do that. They won't spring for temperature/humidity control because they claim their passive cellar is good enough. Of course, this doesn't negate the fact that the importers and retailers were slow to adapt to a temperature controlled standard and that many wines were ruined. But this is why I buy my older wines almost exclusively in Europe.

That is just not true. Do you have any idea how many wines are actually aged? How do you know these wines were not damaged before the found their way to the suburban cellars you mention. You're right - few people had good storage until 10 years ago. Fewer still collected wine. If you are buying older wines from auctions in the USA that you cannot trace the storage conditions of - you deserve what you get.

Here you are focusing on a tiny percentage of wines - old wines of auction caliber. Let's assume anyone dropping big bucks on old wines at auction is clever to know they need to store the wines in proper conditions. While this may be what you think of when it comes to wine it is only a curiosity to most.

Most people buy wines to drink - not to end up in an auction. They also do not buy their wines at auctions but at stores. There are generally two types of collectors:

1. THE COLLECTOR: collecting wine is their passion and they acquire far more wine than they can ever hope to drink in their lives (must to the pleasure of the auction houses). Part of their pleasure is in the ownership itself. Perfect cellar conditions for them are an absolute must as because of the shear number of wines in the collection they must last as LONG as possible. They never acquire enough because the acquisition is part of the thrill. These people are very important because their ability to stage unique tastings (50 years of Latour etc.) make them the curators of a museum holding treasures that most could never own but are able to touch through such events. They preserve the history of wine.

2. THE DRINKER: Wine is their passion but they are buying for consumption. Often they buy wines by the case because they run into a great bargain. They buy a wide range of wines ranging from 'house wine' to great estates. Most of the wines in their cellar need require less than 20 years of aging to reach maturity. They reach a point where they start to think they own too much wine. These people need very good cellar conditions, but can survive and enjoy their wines to the fullest without dead on perfect storage. Their biggest thrill is opening a complex and mature wine they aged themselves.

So it not only depends on what wines you are going to store but why you are storing them.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But wines for short term drinking (four to seven years or less,) are much less demanding about storage. Having a wine age in 4 years instead of five because your cellar temerature is at 65 instead of 60 will not make that big a difference to the outcome. But for collectible and auctionable wines, over 25 years of cellaring time, five years of early maturation makes a huge difference. And my point about poor home storage wasn't to say that the importers didn't damage many wines. But the collectors damaged them even further, in fact much worse in many instances.

[Craig Camp]

But wines for short term drinking (four to seven years or less,) are much less demanding about storage. Having a wine age in 4 years instead of five because your cellar temerature is at 65 instead of 60 will not make that big a difference to the outcome. But for collectible and auctionable wines, over 25 years of cellaring time, five years of early maturation makes a huge difference. And my point about poor home storage wasn't to say that the importers didn't damage many wines. But the collectors damaged them even further, in fact much worse in many instances.

Well said.

The way the trade handles wines in the USA continues to be a disaster. If the importer temperature controls the distributor doesn't. Even if the distributor has a temperature controlled warehouse they will deliver the wine in a baking hot truck. A lot of lip service is giving to this but very few wines get to the consumer without being exposed to temperature extreme during at least one stage of the shipping process.