Italian Hoagie

[rockhopper]

This probably sounds like an obvious question but...

When you go into a Delaware valley hoagie joint and the menu says "Italian Hoagie" what do you expect to get? Ok, meats, cheese, grasses, condiments and bread - but what kinds? What do you think makes it Italian vs. regyuhluh?

What would make you ask the preparer "What the xxxx is this" if you found it on your "Italian Hoagie"? (Your choce of xxxx). How would you define a bad italian hoagie?

I had an interesting experience today. It was cold and wet and I didn't feel like driving to Nardi's to get what I think is one of the best hoagies around so I went to a closer "Italian deli". I'll tell you about it later.

[cdh]

In my experience, the terms regular and Italian are interchangable in most places. The few places that do differentiate between regular and Italian do so based on the provenance of the meats that go into the sandwich... i.e. cheaper domestic salami and ham in the regular, imported Italian meats in an Italian.

I'd probably say "what the xxxxxxxxx is this" if something like, say, pepperoni turned up in a hoagie... I'm largely forgiving of different varieties of ham... I'm happy when real sopresatta gets subbed in for the cooked salami, but either is acceptable. American cheese (or anything not provalone) would certainly raise a "wft!?!?" reaction from me...

[Jason Perlow]

I don't know about in PA, but in Jersey, definitely there should be AT LEAST 3 kinds of salumi, and 1 type of cheese, usually and preferably Provolone.

The usual combo being deli ham, genoa salami, capricola and provolone.

My preferred combo is genoa salami or sorpesatta (or hell, alpino salumeo if they got it), capricola (thats Gobbagool for you Sopranos fans), mortadella, prosciutto and provolone, with raw onions, lettuce, tomato, salt and pepper, hot peppers and vinagrette.

I wouldnt object to peperoni being on a sub, if it was antipasto quality pepperoni, which does exist.

[Scoats]

From my experience a regular hoagie and an Italian hoagie are two rather different things (the Italian is much better).

Lemme see what I can recall from my college days:

American Hoagie: American cheese, balogna, ham, salami, shredded lettuce, tomato, chopped onion, oil or mayo

Italain Hoagie: Prov cheese, cappicola, Italian salami, ham, shredded lettuce, tomato, chopped onion, oil, oregano

So major diffs are the cheese, and cappicola rather than balogna (baloney).

I don't know about American hoagies, but Italian hoagies are best if they've sat rolled up for at least an hour.

[cdh]

Hmmm.... the "American Hoagie" is another beast altogether... I thought the question was the difference b/t "Regular" and "Italian". The American sounds like a scary thing to be avoided.

My take on hoagies is stilted by the fact that I'm up in Penna. Dutch country, so while there is a strongly entrenched meat curing and sausage making tradition, it is very different from the Italian tradition. Which means that, while Philly traditions like cheesesteaks and hoagies are common out here, the ingredients are skewed toward the locally made produce which is interesting and not frighteningly bland like Scoats' depiction of an American hoagie, but is also very very very not italian. This is a part of the world where garlic is not a common ingredient, and cured meats have a higher water content, and are generally pink. The beautiful reddish brown of a dryer capicola is never seen up here... it is the pink of deli ham and the local "cooked salami". Even up here in Penna Dutch country, a regular hoagie is an Italian, though with germanic charcuterie. Getting a baloney and american cheese on a hoagie roll would require asking for just that... (and you'd have to specify lebanon or american bologna, and which of the five varieties of the latter that are available.)

[Holly Moore]

Click to see the menu for Chickie's Deli in South Philadelphia, my favorite constructor of Hoagies.

Chickie's Deli

My favorite, not shown, the Italian "Special" From their menu, it's the meats from the Italian Hoagie and everything else from the Prosciutto Special. A hoagie, like anything else, is much better when topped with a good, sharp, aged provolone.

[carrie]

The Chickie's Special sounds like my idea of a "regular". We order them during the Summer from the White House in Atlantic City. I've never been to Chickie's but anything tastes good on Sarcone's bread. I also really like Rocco's in Reading Terminal and the Bellevue food court.

[cinghiale]

Read this w/interest in today's Inky.Hoggie? Hogan? Hoagie!

[Holly Moore]

Got this beauty from Sarcone's Deli, 9th and Fitzwater. It's their Sarcone Special Hoagie. Prosciutto, Roasted Peppers, Roasted Garlic, Sharp Provolone, Dry Herbs, Oil and Vinegar. Plus it's built on Sarcone's bread. For those not familiar with Sarcone's bread it's the best Italian bread in Philadelphia and perhaps the continent.

This was a magical hoagie, the perfect blending of flavors.

[C Squared]

I have a question. What makes a hoagie a hoagie? I have long mantained that a "tuna hoagie" is not a hoagie at all, but a tuna sandwich on a roll.

[Holly Moore]

I kind of agree with you. A hoagie roll with tuna salad, shredded lettuce, sliced tomato and sliced onion is nt really a hoagie. But a tuna hoagie the way Chickie's in South Philly builds it - hoagie roll with tuna meat, roasted Italian vegetables, aged provolone and olive oil is a hoagie. It's not a classic Italian Hoagie as described above, but it is a hoagie.

[rockhopper]

Sorry, I've been busy lately so Im finally following up.

I was talking about the unspoken "contract" when the menu says simply "italian hoagie" and nothing else. What I expect in this area is an Italian roll (ok, hoagie roll) that is not soft like wonder bread. The rolls from Sarcone's eveyone mentions are perfect. The bread used for the hoagies at the Italian People's Bakery on Butler street in Trenton are even better.

The meats can vary a bit. Genoa salami, capocolla (btw, colla is neck and capo is head = top of the neck), maybe the peperoni with a 4 inch diameter - not the pizza topping, infrequently Prosciutto (but very welcome) and some flabby boiled american pig product in lower end stores that I think they call "boiled ham" or "domestic ham". (I take that off and give it to my cat Giacomo). Holly mentioned Chickies. (I laughed a bit at the spelling of cotechino as coteghino. Its as if we started to spell door as doh-wer since the current president is from texas.).

The cheese is probably provolone - most likely mild unless you ask for sharp.

Finally some kind of lettuce (usually shredded), onions, tomatoes, olive oil and red wine vinegar and oregano.

Ok at least that's what *I* expect.

rant begin

How about mustard AND mayonnaise insead of the oil and vinegar and oregano. How about some annato colored cheese food product? How about just Genoa salami? (I guess they thought that makes it an italian hoagie).

I didn't open the package until I got home and I was dumbfounded. On the paper wrapping it said "italian" so there was no switcheroo mistake.

What would you do? Drive back and say "you can eat this mess"? Throw it away? Hold your nose and eat it?

rant end

Now if the menu listed the components and said this was their take on "italian hoagie" then you're forewarned. It's also not like saying "give me a hamburger" which you *know* varies everywhere. Burger Barf built their businees on "have it your way".

[Rich Pawlak]

Sorry, I've been busy lately so Im finally following up.

I was talking about the unspoken "contract" when the menu says simply "italian hoagie" and nothing else. What I expect in this area is an Italian roll (ok, hoagie roll) that is not soft like wonder bread. The rolls from Sarcone's eveyone mentions are perfect. The bread used for the hoagies at the Italian People's Bakery on Butler street in Trenton are even better.

The meats can vary a bit. Genoa salami, capocolla (btw, colla is neck and capo is head = top of the neck), maybe the peperoni with a 4 inch diameter - not the pizza topping, infrequently Prosciutto (but very welcome) and some flabby boiled american pig product in lower end stores that I think they call "boiled ham" or "domestic ham". (I take that off and give it to my cat Giacomo). Holly mentioned Chickies. (I laughed a bit at the spelling of cotechino as coteghino. Its as if we started to spell door as doh-wer since the current president is from texas.).

The cheese is probably provolone - most likely mild unless you ask for sharp.

Finally some kind of lettuce (usually shredded), onions, tomatoes, olive oil and red wine vinegar and oregano.

Ok at least that's what *I* expect.

rant begin

How about mustard AND mayonnaise insead of the oil and vinegar and oregano. How about some annato colored cheese food product? How about just Genoa salami? (I guess they thought that makes it an italian hoagie).

I didn't open the package until I got home and I was dumbfounded. On the paper wrapping it said "italian" so there was no switcheroo mistake.

What would you do? Drive back and say "you can eat this mess"? Throw it away? Hold your nose and eat it?

rant end

Now if the menu listed the components and said this was their take on "italian hoagie" then you're forewarned. It's also not like saying "give me a hamburger" which you *know* varies everywhere. Burger Barf built their businees on "have it your way".

The rolls that Italian People's Bakery in Trenton uses are, to me, way too soft and fluffy to be a true hoagie roll, and lack that nutty crust that rolls like Sarcone's, National, V&M and others have. They also BUILD a hoagie differently in Trenton, with too much shredded lettuce and onions for my taste. To me, the hoagie is about balance, and for me, the best I've had are Italians from Rocco's at The Bellevue or Reading Terminal Market, as well as Chickie's and Sarcone's Deli in South Philly.

[Andrew Fenton]

Oh man, I just went to Chickie's for the first time on Wednesday. Had the Chickie Special with prosciutto, sopressata, capicolla, provolone and peppers. Now that is a good hoagie: packed with the best ingredients, on the best bread. The size of a wrestler's forearm, for like six bucks.

The real comparison is between Chickie's and Sarcone's, I guess. Off hand I'd say that Sarcone's has more interesting hoagie combinations, but Chickie's has better value for the money. But they're both fine, fine sandwiches.

[Peter B Wolf]

So where is the Mortadella ?

And about the

....."and some flabby boiled american pig product in lower end stores that I think they call "boiled ham" or "domestic ham". "

Will thinly sliced Cure81 ham work for you ?

[rockhopper]

What is cure81? Is that one of those "water and pork products"? (actual quote from a label).

I wouldn't mind mortadella. I don't know anyplace around here that has it as a regular ingredient on an "italian hoagie". Do you? I know places where you can say "gimme a hoagie with x and y and z and etc".

I wasn't describing the "italian hoagie of the gods" (like chickie's or sarcone's etc) but rather what are the outer boundaries of what an "italian hoagie" is. I think the sandwich I receive is way outside. On another planet.

Rick:

I've never had a hoagie from the IPB on a roll. It's a half of an Italian loaf. I get the middle size; do they use rolls for the smaller ones? And yes it made differently from Philadelpha hoagies where they lie the bread flat then pile on the cheese, meat and then the grasses, condiments - which I find a bit inconvenient to eat (if the condiments were against the bread then oil/vinegar wouldn't gush down your sleeve.

[Holly Moore]

Cure 81 is Hormel's premium ham. Used to be that each ham was certified and numbered. Don't know if that's still the case.

Cure 81 would work for a Madison WI hoagie. but, Yo, not South Philly.