Cleavers

[liuzhou]

On 11/12/2023 at 11:37 AM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Enoking seems to be a decent Chinese brand of cooking knifes.

 

I don't know, but I can find no evidence that it is a Chinese brand. The name in 'Chinese' does not equate to Enoking and using the 'Chinese' name on an internet image search only returns a bunch of images from garish looking comics. No knives. 

Not to say that they don't make good knives.

 

To over-simplify, there are basically two types of Chinese cleavers. What we call a 菜刀 (cài dāo) which literally translates as 'vegetable knife' but really means kitchen knife or chef's knife. This is most cooks' go to in China. Mine weighs 434 grams.

 

菜刀 (cài dāo）

The second is 切骨 切 (qiē gǔ dāo), literally meaning 'cut bone knife', sometimes (incorrectly) translated as meat cleavers. These are considerably heavier and meant for butchering. They are designed specifically for cutting through bones. They are much less common in domestic kitchens. Mine is almost three times heavier than the cai dao, being 1.2 kg.

 

切骨 切 (qiē gǔ dāo)

 

From your description, the heaviness and the image on Amazon, I think you may have bought the second type.

 

To my amusement, while trying to find any reference to Enoking, I came across Serious Eats article on the best Chinese cleavers. Not only was there no reference to Enoking, but all the Chinese cleavers they recommended were Japanese! Seriously?????

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

49 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

 

I don't know, but I can find no evidence that it is a Chinese brand. The name in 'Chinese' does not equate to Enoking and using the 'Chinese' name on an internet image search only returns a bunch of images from garish looking comics. No knives. 

Not to say that they don't make good knives.

 

To over-simplify, there are basically two types of Chinese cleavers. What we call a 菜刀 (cài dāo) which literally translates as 'vegetable knife' but really means kitchen knife or chef's knife. This is most cooks' go to in China.

 

菜刀 (cài dāo）

The second is 切骨 切 (qiē gǔ dāo), literally meaning 'cut bone knife', sometimes (incorrectly) translated as meat cleavers. These are considerably heavier and meant for butchering. They are designed specifically for cutting through bones. They are much less common in domestic kitchens.

 

切骨 切 (qiē gǔ dāo)

 

From your description, the heaviness and the image on Amazon, I think you may have bought the second type.

 

To my amusement, while trying to find any reference to Enoking, I came across Serious Eats article on the best Chinese cleavers. Not only was there no reference to Enoking, but all the Chinese cleavers they recommended were Japanese! Seriously?????

 

 

There is no country of origin listed for the cleaver I purchased that I can find, but for other Enoking knives where the country is specified it is always China.

 

[liuzhou]

1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Enoking knives where the country is specified it is always China.

 

'Chinese knives' doesn't mean they're from China. Maybe China style. I can't find any trace of any such company anywhere in China. In fact, even in America it is only listed on your beloved Amazon with a mere trace on Walmart. The Chinese name on the blade is nonsensical.In Japanese it means monarch or champions, but I can find no trace of that company or brand in Japan, either..

 

Anyway, I only mentioned the name in passing. My real point is that you have bought a butcher's knife for chopping bones.

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[Duvel]

5 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

There is no country of origin listed for the cleaver I purchased that I can find, but for other Enoking knives where the country is specified it is always China.

 

Enoking trademark …

[JoNorvelleWalker]

19 hours ago, liuzhou said:

 

'Chinese knives' doesn't mean they're from China. Maybe China style. I can't find any trace of any such company anywhere in China. In fact, even in America it is only listed on your beloved Amazon with a mere trace on Walmart. The Chinese name on the blade is nonsensical.In Japanese it means monarch or champions, but I can find no trace of that company or brand in Japan, either..

 

Anyway, I only mentioned the name in passing. My real point is that you have bought a butcher's knife for chopping bones.

 

 

Never would it have occurred to me that a cleaver could be more than one type of knife.  With my bias of being in the US I thought all cleavers were for chopping essentially anything?  I recall Watanabe offers or offered Chinese style cleavers, although Watanabe's cleavers are indeed expensive.  Even more expensive are the restored cleavers offered by New West Knife works, some more than 100 years old, and all about $1000.

https://www.newwestknifeworks.com/collections/restored-antique-meat-cleavers

 

Maybe what is meant by cleaver is a cultural thing?  My sense of what a cleaver is corresponds to Wikipedia's article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaver

 

I hope @Jaymes was not as confused as I.

 

[btbyrd]

Westerners primarily identify cleavers by shape. They're tall rectangles. But there are many types of tall rectangular knives. Butchery cleavers are extremely thick compared to standard western chef knives. They're not general purpose knives and aren't especially useful to ordinary home cooks. There are also thinner cleavers that are general purpose blades designed to cut basically anything boneless. They're essentially the Chinese equivalent of the European chef knife and are great for home cooks. Most Japanese made Chinese-style cleavers (chuka bocho) are patterned after this thinner style of cleaver. Including Watanabe. The lightest type of this cleaver is a songdou or mulberry knife, which is great for delicate work an

There's really an entire spectrum running from thin slicer cleavers up to thick bone choppers. Most cooks don't need a butchery cleaver, but could find a lot of uses for a thinner, general purpose cleaver. Here's a not terrible overview of some different styles of Chinese cleaver:

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

14 hours ago, btbyrd said:

Westerners primarily identify cleavers by shape. They're tall rectangles. But there are many types of tall rectangular knives. Butchery cleavers are extremely thick compared to standard western chef knives. They're not general purpose knives and aren't especially useful to ordinary home cooks. There are also thinner cleavers that are general purpose blades designed to cut basically anything boneless. They're essentially the Chinese equivalent of the European chef knife and are great for home cooks. Most Japanese made Chinese-style cleavers (chuka bocho) are patterned after this thinner style of cleaver. Including Watanabe. The lightest type of this cleaver is a songdou or mulberry knife, which is great for delicate work an

There's really an entire spectrum running from thin slicer cleavers up to thick bone choppers. Most cooks don't need a butchery cleaver, but could find a lot of uses for a thinner, general purpose cleaver. Here's a not terrible overview of some different styles of Chinese cleaver:

 

 

 

Thanks for the video.  After watching, I ordered a much lighter and longer Chinese cleaver of a different brand.  It will be interesting to  see how the two cleavers compare.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

My Warmot Chinese Cleaver arrived this evening.  I can't say it sparks joy or confidence.  Compared to the Enoking Nakiri, it is the same length and about twice the height.  While weight of the Warmot is 238 g vs. 253 g for the Enoking Nikiri.  Enoking specifies their steel as 9CR18MOV.  Warmot says their cleaver is "alloy steel".  And they say the cleaver is forged, although it appears stamped to me.  If you assert a stamped blade is forged, I guess that does qualify as forgery.

 

Meanwhile the Warmot cleaver is not the sharpest in the drawer.  I tested it tonight on radishes and limes.  The Enoking Nikari performed better in all respects.  I have yet to try the Enoking Cleaver.

 

[dcarch]

7 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

And they say the cleaver is forged, although it appears stamped to me.  If you assert a stamped blade is forged, I guess that does qualify as forgery.

 

LOL, That is very cleaver.

 

dcarch

Edited November 15, 2023 by dcarch (log)

[btbyrd]

If you're in the market for a thinner Chinese slicing cleaver, I highly recommend buying from a reputable brand like Shi Ba Zi (stainless model F208-1) or CCK (model KF1303 for carbon steel, KF1912 for stainless). Mystery Amazon brands are best avoided. My CCK cleaver destroyed almost all desire for a nakiri (though I'd love to test drive a tall 185mm Watanabe sometime).

[Duvel]

I know my suggested Zwilling model didn’t make the cut, so I’ll pitch this one …

 

Razor sharp (like all Global knives), „regular“ maintenance with a whetstone - nothing exotic, stylish to boot. If I would need one outside the Zwilling, that‘s the one …

Edited November 15, 2023 by Duvel (log)

[btbyrd]

The CCK is twice the knife at (less than) half the price. If you like the all metal construction of the Global, try the CCK KF1812. $80 from Action Sales.

 

 

[Duvel]

It ain’t Japanese, though … 😉

[rotuts]

@Duvel 

 

globals are very fine knives.

 

but difficult to sharpen .  said to have ' sticky steel '   ( knifeForum )

 

got a few some time ago , BB&B  , each w the ubiquitous coupon.

 

loved everything about them

 

but had a difficult time w them on the whetstone system I was using 

 

though KnifeForum , got the pointer to EdgePro.

 

made all the difference.  

 

razor sharp they became .  

 

but I moved on from them

 

to Watanabe .  very small trust fund required. for those

 

but spectacular when taken care of  w the EdgePro

 

as long as you enjoy the feel of the knife in your hand

 

and its close to the proper size for the job

 

and you keep it razor sharp 

 

you've got a knife for your ages.

Edited November 15, 2023 by rotuts (log)

[OlyveOyl]

A cleaver I bought in Chinatown more than 40 years ago. I consider it medium weight, good for mincing meat and veggies.  I hardly use this one as I’ve not been able to remove the label and it bothers the heck out of me when I use it.😂

The price was $18.  I also purchased a lighter weight Dexter with Chinese markings on it but I assume it was made in Southbridge, Ma. along with their other products.

[rotuts]

@OlyveOyl 

 

love to see a pic and info on your Dexter.

 

I assume you have used all sorts of solvents on that label.  

 

try acetone  ( nail polish remover ? )

 

and a folded over 220 or finer wet // dry sand paper 

 

 

[OlyveOyl]

@rotuts  Ty for the suggestions on removal of label! I could not get a very good image of the script on the cleaver, lighting was not favorable, but I think you can decipher it.

[rotuts]

I find the Dexter cleaver w the chinese inscription 

 

a curious item

 

where were they hoping to sell it ?

[OlyveOyl]

It’s still available in their catalog, so somebody’s buying them.  Since I purchased it at a store in NYC Chinatown, they were primarily marketing it to the Chinese market.

[liuzhou]

It reads 戴斯特牌 華氏廚刀 which means Dexter Kitchen Knife.

[haresfur]

What is the practical difference in use between the cleavers with a very flat blade and those with a curved blade? I would think the former would be better for chop-cutting vegetables and the latter maybe better for slicing or rocking but I don't really know anything about Chinese cutting technique.

[liuzhou]

24 minutes ago, haresfur said:

What is the practical difference in use between the cleavers with a very flat blade and those with a curved blade? I would think the former would be better for chop-cutting vegetables and the latter maybe better for slicing or rocking but I don't really know anything about Chinese cutting technique.

 

In general, those with a flat blade are 菜刀 (cài dāo) which literally means vegetable knife but is use as a general cook's knives which are used for yes, chopping, but also slicing meats etc. These are usually the only knives in a domestic setting.

 

Those with the curved blade edges are 切骨刀) (qiē gǔ dāo), literally cut bone knife, and are generally butcher's knives intended for cutting through bones, cartilege etc as well as slicing meats. The meat vendors in every market in China use those. Rare in home kitchens.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[haresfur]

2 hours ago, liuzhou said:

 

In general, those with a flat blade are 菜刀 (cài dāo) which literally means vegetable knife but is use as a general cook's knives which are used for yes, chopping, but also slicing meats etc. These are usually the only knives in a domestic setting.

 

Those with the curved blade edges are 切骨刀) (qiē gǔ dāo), literally cut bone knife, and are generally butcher's knives intended for cutting through bones, cartilege etc as well as slicing meats. The meat vendors in every market in China use those. Rare in home kitchens.

 

 

 

 

Well my question/confusion is about the ones you and others have been saying are for home cooks like this one:

 

On 11/12/2023 at 3:48 PM, liuzhou said:

 

I don't know, but I can find no evidence that it is a Chinese brand. The name in 'Chinese' does not equate to Enoking and using the 'Chinese' name on an internet image search only returns a bunch of images from garish looking comics. No knives. 

Not to say that they don't make good knives.

 

To over-simplify, there are basically two types of Chinese cleavers. What we call a 菜刀 (cài dāo) which literally translates as 'vegetable knife' but really means kitchen knife or chef's knife. This is most cooks' go to in China. Mine weighs 434 grams.

 

菜刀 (cài dāo）

 

 

 

vs this one which has a basically flat blade profile

 

On 11/16/2023 at 7:44 AM, btbyrd said:

The CCK is twice the knife at (less than) half the price. If you like the all metal construction of the Global, try the CCK KF1812. $80 from Action Sales.

 

 

 

I inherited one like the second from my father who used it to whack apart all sorts of things (the spine is covered with hammer marks). I took the chips out of the blade but am not sure whether to put a curve back in or not.

[btbyrd]

I don't know how much curve was in the original knife, but profiles vary a lot and what is good or not depends on cutting style and personal preference. If you had to remove a lot of steel to get rid of the chips, you may want to thin the blade to improve cutting performance. 

[liuzhou]

 

1 hour ago, haresfur said:

Well my question/confusion is about the ones you and others have been saying are for home cooks like this one:

 

Knife curvation is variable in home knives, but not extreme. Bone knives are in general much more curved.