Guitar base size?

[Pastrypastmidnight]

I promise I did a search and read everything I could find on guitars, but if I missed the answer to this question, feel free to point me in the right direction .

 

TCF carries Dedy guitars with a 5mm base or a 7.5mm base. Is there a reason I should choose one over the other? The chocolatier nearest me who does slabbed ganache does true 1” squares (I measured  ), so clearly a 5mm base, but it seems like maybe the 7.5 is more common and is less expensive. 

 

Pros and cons? Reasons why you chose the size you did? Or why you would choose a certain size? I feel like I don’t know what I don’t know about so many things . Thanks so much!

[pastrygirl]

it looks like the only real difference is the medium frame, 25 vs 22.5 mm.  They both have the 15 and 30 mm, and some larger sizes.

 

What are you making?  Do you already have packaging that it needs to fit?

 

I have the 7.5 mm base with 15, 22.5, 30, and 37.5mm frames. I've been cutting truffles 22.5 mm square by 15 mm deep and they fit perfectly into a 2" cube box.  But the boxes aren't airtight, so I'm thinking of switching to a flat-bottom bag and cutting them a little smaller, 15 x 22.5.  25 mm squares wouldn't fit in that particular box, but I'm sure there are options.  I cut caramels 15 x 37.5, which happens to make an even number from a 9" square pan with only tiny scraps.  I also use the wider spaced wires for cutting  catering minis like flourless brownies and lemon bars (the crust is pretty soft, it cuts fine).  I don't know if 2.5 mm here or there makes that much difference unless one set perfectly fits something you already have.

[Jim D.]

If you want 1" squares, you need the 5mm. That base can utilize any frame with spacing of wires in a multiple of 5mm. Of course, to be exact, the 5mm squares aren't exactly 1"; they are 0.984252"  

 

20mm and 35mm frames also fit that base and make a very nice size of bars.

 

[Pastrypastmidnight]

I would use it for slabbed bonbons, soft caramels, pâte de fruit and marshmallows. I don’t have packaging yet, so that’s a non-issue at this point. I wasn’t sure if there was a standard accepted size I didn’t know about or if it’s easier to find standard packaging for the 22.5 vs. the 25 size. The chocolatier near me uses rigid boxes with a clear insert contains 1.25” squares so the 1” ganache squares fit perfectly once enrobed. That seems like a good size to me, but I don’t have super extensive experience with what others are offering. 

 

Thanks @pastrygirl for your feedback! I appreciate it .

[pastrygirl]

Anytime

 

I would encourage you to consider packaging, I think many of us find it frustrating trying to find the best combo of height, width, price, material, etc. 

 

if you’re doing a lot of fork dipping, the 25mm might be easier than the 22.5, they’re a liiiittle small.   

 

I got my guitar 7 or 8 years ago, I don’t recall if the 5 mm base was an option or if I chose the 7.5 for a reason. I will say it was a good investment, at least for me. I’ve cut tens of thousands of truffles, mostly with ease! 

[Jim D.]

I would strongly echo what @pastrygirl says about looking at packaging early in the process (written from some bitter experience  ) because there are some decisions you make that can't be undone without considerable expense. If, for example, you want to use plastic trays (inserts) to hold the bonbons inside a box (which I highly recommend--as opposed to individual cups--for ease of assembly), there are only certain sizes that are manufactured in bulk. Whatever size tray you choose in turn determines what size chocolates you need to make (or can make), and that, of course, determines what molds you can use. For example, after buying far too many molds that make small chocolates, I got into making many bonbons with layers, and those are very difficult to make in small chocolates. So I moved to larger individual pieces. You can see that that decision affects the trays you will need. If you have custom trays made (which I have done once), it is very, very expensive--who knew that those clear plastic boxes that hold produce cost so much? So I would recommend looking at the packaging companies in some detail to see what is out there. There are lots of recommendations on eGullet, and I can provide some when you get to that point (I spent much of a summer researching this). It's far easier to get a "system" that includes boxes and trays that match, but then you need to look out for box height not being tall enough to hold your bonbons--just adding a toasted hazelnut to the top of a piece eliminates a lot of boxes out there! I ended up having custom boxes made because of the issues of height (not tall enough) and cavity size (not large enough) in stock boxes. I think packaging is crucial to the "look" of your product.

 

That takes us back to the guitar size topic. It's linked to a lot of other issues, as has been said in this thread.

 

As for using the guitar, there is a long thread on this. I recommend you read it if you haven't already. It even includes a link to a helpful video from pastrygirl on replacing guitar wires--a dreaded topic for all users of guitars. Having the right texture in what is being cut is crucial, and once you replace a guitar wire, you will know why!

[Pastrypastmidnight]

23 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

I would strongly echo what @pastrygirl says about looking at packaging early in the process (written from some bitter experience  ) because there are some decisions you make that can't be undone without considerable expense. If, for example, you want to use plastic trays (inserts) to hold the bonbons inside a box (which I highly recommend--as opposed to individual cups--for ease of assembly), there are only certain sizes that are manufactured in bulk. Whatever size tray you choose in turn determines what size chocolates you need to make (or can make), and that, of course, determines what molds you can use. For example, after buying far too many molds that make small chocolates, I got into making many bonbons with layers, and those are very difficult to make in small chocolates. So I moved to larger individual pieces. You can see that that decision affects the trays you will need. If you have custom trays made (which I have done once), it is very, very expensive--who knew that those clear plastic boxes that hold produce cost so much? So I would recommend looking at the packaging companies in some detail to see what is out there. There are lots of recommendations on eGullet, and I can provide some when you get to that point (I spent much of a summer researching this). It's far easier to get a "system" that includes boxes and trays that match, but then you need to look out for box height not being tall enough to hold your bonbons--just adding a toasted hazelnut to the top of a piece eliminates a lot of boxes out there! I ended up having custom boxes made because of the issues of height (not tall enough) and cavity size (not large enough) in stock boxes. I think packaging is crucial to the "look" of your product.

 

That takes us back to the guitar size topic. It's linked to a lot of other issues, as has been said in this thread.

 

As for using the guitar, there is a long thread on this. I recommend you read it if you haven't already. It even includes a link to a helpful video from pastrygirl on replacing guitar wires--a dreaded topic for all users of guitars. Having the right texture in what is being cut is crucial, and once you replace a guitar wire, you will know why!

Thank you so much for your input. I have read all the threads I could find about both guitars and packaging, although frequently on egullet I have thought I’ve exhausted a topic only to discover information on a thread that didn’t seem related  , but I’ll kerp poking around. 

 

Those were all the considerations I was concerned about. I’ll krep researching and puzzling it out. I just wanted to check and make sure there wasn’t a super obvious industry standard I was unaware of. Thank you so much!

[Pastrypastmidnight]

7 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Anytime

 

I would encourage you to consider packaging, I think many of us find it frustrating trying to find the best combo of height, width, price, material, etc. 

 

if you’re doing a lot of fork dipping, the 25mm might be easier than the 22.5, they’re a liiiittle small.   

 

I got my guitar 7 or 8 years ago, I don’t recall if the 5 mm base was an option or if I chose the 7.5 for a reason. I will say it was a good investment, at least for me. I’ve cut tens of thousands of truffles, mostly with ease! 

I hadn’t thought about the larger size for hand dipping—that makes total sense. 

 

Yes! I am in the throes of packaging research. It kind of feels like a nightmare—I’ll find something I like and then I can only find it manufactured and sold out of the country. I’ll keep working on it—thank you again for all your help!

 

After spending 3 hours just measuring and cutting one 9x13 pan and one 8x8 pan the other day, the guitar moved significantly higher up my list (it would have been 4 cuts!!!!). And for Christmas, I made 5 kinda of caramel. Cutting and wrapping took the entire day. Sigh.

[pastrygirl]

18 minutes ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

I just wanted to check and make sure there wasn’t a super obvious industry standard I was unaware of.

 

No.  Sigh.  If only .... 

 

Are you using molds too?

 

For bonbons, I started out using shallow boxes and some really small molds - the low profile or artisan depth from Glerup-Revere. http://glerup.com/clear-gold-shallow-sm-gold-bottom-6-1-16-x-1-1-4-x-3-4.html

 

Now I'm using more domed molds (the CW 2295 that is popular) and these:  https://www.papermart.com/set-up-view-top-gold-candy-p-e-t-box-with-inserts/id=38551

But they still need extra padding to keep things in place, and the cavities are too small for some heart and elongated molds I have.  I don't think I've tried dipped pieces in these.

 

Are you launching a full-time commercial venture or more hobbyist quantities?  Custom is expensive, and you may change your mind, so I'd definitely get some samples and see if something off-the-rack will work before going custom.  Do you want to sell chocolate or do you want to sell packaging?  Yes, the packaging has to fit and look great but ...  

 

 

[gfron1]

On a related note, a while back I had an engineer friend build me a guitar - really great machine that to this day allows me to cut soft caramel and overcooked pate de fruit. We were hoping to sell, but both of our lives took different turns. 

 

In our prototype we talked about size - both of the cuts but also the frame itself. For cuts I told him that I only needed 1" squares (finished) and then had him pull back 2 mm to allow for my dip thickness. For the frame, I already had a one-piece plexiglass pastry frame that was custom made to fit into my half sheet pans. So I had him build it to accommodate a half sheet less 2" (the size of the two ends of the frame). The problem was that the frame was built like a half sheet - rectangle, not square. And I didn't catch the error until it was too late. That means when I rotate the slab to do the second cut I have to trim some off to be able to make the second cut. That's a pain. 

All of that is to say that the advice to think through all stages of your production is crucial so you don't waste any money or time. 

[Pastrypastmidnight]

@pastrygirl and @gfron1 thank you both so much for your input and advice. Yes, there is so much to think through and so many costly decisions that affect other things—it feels a little bit like “If You Give a Mouse a Cookie.” 

 

“If a chocolatier buys a guitar cutter, she will want to make sure her pieces fit in her packaging when enrobed so she’ll have to order the correct plastic trays. Once she orders the plastic trays, she’ll have to find boxes they will fit in. Once she finds the trays and boxes, she’ll remember that her molded pieces need to fit as well so she will scour the online catalogs looking for the right shapes. Once she decides on the mold shapes, she’ll have to make sure they will work for the kids of bonbons she wants to make. When she decides on the bonbons, she’ll have to make sure they work in those molds and those molds fit in those boxes.  When she realizes they won’t fit in the packaging, she’ll realize she needs different packaging. And when she realized she needs different packaging, she’ll need to buy a different size guitar base.”  

 

That. That is what I’m trying to avoid  . My poor family. Every time we buy chocolates, I’m like, “Wait! You can’t eat that until I weigh and measure each piece and measure the cavities and overall size of the packaging!” 

[pastrygirl]

2 hours ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

“If a chocolatier buys a guitar cutter, she will want to make sure her pieces fit in her packaging when enrobed so she’ll have to order the correct plastic trays. Once she orders the plastic trays, she’ll have to find boxes they will fit in. Once she finds the trays and boxes, she’ll remember that her molded pieces need to fit as well so she will scour the online catalogs looking for the right shapes. Once she decides on the mold shapes, she’ll have to make sure they will work for the kids of bonbons she wants to make. When she decides on the bonbons, she’ll have to make sure they work in those molds and those molds fit in those boxes.  When she realizes they won’t fit in the packaging, she’ll realize she needs different packaging. And when she realized she needs different packaging, she’ll need to buy a different size guitar base.”  

 

Yes, that sums it up nicely 

[curls]

Another thought on the packaging front -- it is also an option to not use the plastic trays and to put your chocolates in paper cups. This gives you more options when picking molds and can allow you to make pleasant chocolate arrangements in your boxes based on the customer's selection of chocolates. Have a look at Chocolat's website to see some gorgeous tray-free chocolates in boxes https://chocolot.com/.

Disclosure note: I do not use trays in my chocolate boxes and prefer the candy cup route.

[Chocolot]

1 hour ago, curls said:

Another thought on the packaging front -- it is also an option to not use the plastic trays and to put your chocolates in paper cups. This gives you more options when picking molds and can allow you to make pleasant chocolate arrangements in your boxes based on the customer's selection of chocolates. Have a look at Chocolat's website to see some gorgeous tray-free chocolates in boxes https://chocolot.com/.

Disclosure note: I do not use trays in my chocolate boxes and prefer the candy cup route.

 

Thanks Curls. We decided early on, not to have plastic trays. I'm mostly happy with that decision, but trays are better for shipping. I wouldn't mind paper dividers, but not a fan of the plastic. 

[Pastrypastmidnight]

Thanks @curls! I actually don't personally love the gold, silver and brown trays that seem to be most common (I like clear okay, but that seems a lot harder to find)--and I like the idea of not using plastic, but I have been concerned with the durability of the packaging without the plastic trays.

@Chocolot, I love the look of your packaging! I assumed that if I wanted to ship product, the trays would be necessary. Do you ship your chocolates in boxes without trays? If so, how has that worked out for you?

You guys, I really appreciate all the feedback, info, advice--thank you so much!

[Jim D.]

There is certainly no argument with the fact that Chocolot's boxed chocolates look great. The reason I switched from cups to tray is ease of packaging, especially at a busy time of year. Separating the little cups from one another is time-consuming. If you make small or round chocolates, putting them into the cups is easy, but larger square or rectangular pieces take some effort, thus more time.

[curls]

I guess it is all a matter of what you are used to. I am much quicker at dealing out paper cups for chocolates than separating a stack of plastic trays. Also, find it super easy to drop chocolates of many different shapes and sizes into those paper cups. I love being able to select from so many moulds — rounds, squares, flowers, windmills, hedgehogs, bunnies, hearts, etc..  Since I don’t airbrush or use a lot of colored cocoa butter, the mould shape is important for determining the chocolate flavor.

[pastrygirl]

Fiddling with paper candy cups is tedious, but they probably do offer more protection to the candy.   Especially if the pieces are packed snugly into the box so they don’t move around and get scuffed in transit, vs a tray that’s not an exact fit. 

 

Packaging takes time, no matter what!  

[Chocolot]

11 hours ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

Thanks @curls! I actually don't personally love the gold, silver and brown trays that seem to be most common (I like clear okay, but that seems a lot harder to find)--and I like the idea of not using plastic, but I have been concerned with the durability of the packaging without the plastic trays.

@Chocolot, I love the look of your packaging! I assumed that if I wanted to ship product, the trays would be necessary. Do you ship your chocolates in boxes without trays? If so, how has that worked out for you?

You guys, I really appreciate all the feedback, info, advice--thank you so much!

 

I actually do a lot of shipping. They seems to arrive in good shape. Nothing like being totally enclosed in plastic, but no complaints. Paper cups come in many sizes. You just need to find what works for you. I also custom designed my boxes to fit my product. If you use paper cups, start by spreading the stack with your two thumbs, then with one hand, just peel them off the bottom of the stack with thumb and middle finger. 

[Pastrypastmidnight]

11 minutes ago, Chocolot said:

 

I actually do a lot of shipping. They seems to arrive in good shape. Nothing like being totally enclosed in plastic, but no complaints. Paper cups come in many sizes. You just need to find what works for you. I also custom designed my boxes to fit my product. If you use paper cups, start by spreading the stack with your two thumbs, then with one hand, just peel them off the bottom of the stack with thumb and middle finger. 

Thanks for the tips and feedback!